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IMO Murray Joins Wall, Cousins, Davis, MKG As Cal's Best Starting 5 At UK

dlh331

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I would be fine with moving Davis to the 3 and having KAT as the 4 but that may be stretching things a bit.

Center Cousins
PF Davis
SF MKG
PG Wall
SG Murray

Monk has the POTENTIAL to be the best SG but that is a discussion for next year.

Darryl
 
Not bad for a kid who could be playing high school ball this year.
 
as of today it's tough going against doron lamb. even though murray is more a primary scorer and will therefore have a brighter future. lamb was the better defender, could also run the offense in a pinch, and he was also clutch hitting big second half threes going all the way to the final four BOTH years he was here. he basically went 2-4 in threes in almost every game that mattered in his two years.

jones, miller & lamb are the only significant players that have 2 final fours and 1 national title with cal. as of now that is rarified air. also if it wasn't for one ad, lamb is your ff mop as i think he was the only player to score in double figures both games. he also delivered the most efficient offensive game as a freshman against uconn the year before. lamb is a uk stud on top of being a talented cal recruit. if lamb got 7 three attempts a game he would have averaged 18+ in college, but he never forced his threes. murray can create his own shot better but he isn't as efficient a player all around. lamb locked up his role for two years and delivered with consistency.
 
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In 2011 Lamb was the 3rd guy opponents had to game plan for. They doubled and even tripled Terrence till Jorts started looking to score late in the year. That year the best wing/guard defender took Knight. In 2011-12 Lamb was at least the 4th guy opponents game planned for.

Murray is THE guy teams have to stop this year. Much like Meeks in 2009 he is having to shoot many off balance late in the clock type shots. He is having to face the best guard/wing defender the other teams have.

Not trying to demean Lamb but he had Jones, Jorts, Davis, and MKG guarding the rim. He was not a great defender. Teague was much stronger. As for ball handling, Murray is better. Also a better rebounder and passer.

I am not crazy about using NBA potential in this but Lamb barely played after going mid 2nd round. Murray is a top 5 type and SHOULD be a star for years.

Again...IMO.

Darryl
 
I never would have thought it, but KAT may end up ahead of Cuz too.
Jones had some nba dude on the other day who said Karl would end up being better than AD. Hard to believe, considering the way KAT looked the first month or so of the season. Dude came in as a Jonathan Bender wanna be, ended up a beast in the post. When people talk about whether Cal can develop talent, that might end up being his best work.
 
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In 2011 Lamb was the 3rd guy opponents had to game plan for. They doubled and even tripled Terrence till Jorts started looking to score late in the year. That year the best wing/guard defender took Knight. In 2011-12 Lamb was at least the 4th guy opponents game planned for.

Murray is THE guy teams have to stop this year. Much like Meeks in 2009 he is having to shoot many off balance late in the clock type shots. He is having to face the best guard/wing defender the other teams have.

Not trying to demean Lamb but he had Jones, Jorts, Davis, and MKG guarding the rim. He was not a great defender. Teague was much stronger. As for ball handling, Murray is better. Also a better rebounder and passer.

I am not crazy about using NBA potential in this but Lamb barely played after going mid 2nd round. Murray is a top 5 type and SHOULD be a star for years.

Again...IMO.

Darryl
all fair. murray has tyler ulis though. so what makes your point makes mine also. lamb could run all day getting open around screens and would score in those mid range curls a la murray all the time, and hit the shot with more consistency. that knight took more shots took them from lamb. he was was an underrated defender, and great compared to murray imo, probably a better rebounder too though i haven't looked at the stats. point is if lamb had his number called more his numbers go way up. unless murray beats his man and gets an opening all the way to the rim, he has actually been very inconsistent (and prone to forced shots) when we clear out for him. murray has the better handles no doubt but in a college game murray is the better player and the better shooter now running around screens. just like lamb.

it's teamwork in the end, and lamb blended in right from the beginning. he had two final fours and a title is what decides it for me mainly just so you know. if we get to the ff or he gets aa i may reconsider, but my non-all star style all-time cal starting five has lamb at the 2 over bledsoe and andrew harrison. maybe we're just interpreting the criterium differently.
 
I don't think he is better than BK was. it is tough to compare because of the different situations, but I don't think Murray could handle the same load that Knight did. I also think Murray gets dinged for has sub par defense.
 
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What about Ulis? Knight? Nerlens? Patterson? No offense, but IMHO, Lamb and Murray don't even belong in the top 10.

My team is by positions

Those guys were all great but who would they replace in my starting 5?

Darryl
 
I don't think he is better than BK was. it is tough to compare because of the different situations, but I don't think Murray could handle the same load that Knight did. I also think Murray gets dinged for has sub par defense.

Knight was the point guard and would not replace Wall

Darryl
 
Jones had some nba dude on the other day who said Karl would end up being better than AD. Hard to believe, considering the way KAT looked the first month or so of the season. Dude came in as a Jonathan Bender wanna be, ended up a beast in the post. When people talk about whether Cal can develop talent, that might end up being his best work.

I think it could eventually be like comparing prime Lebron with prime KD.

Prime KD is good enough to win the MVP and lead the league in scoring, but prime Lebron is a freak of nature.

I think that AD is Lebron in this scenario and will always be considered slightly better than KAT, barring injury.
 
Murray with wall would be about as nasty a UK backcourt as you could have.
 
Knight was the point guard and would not replace Wall

Darryl

But Knight is a combo, just like Murray. If Ulis isn't here and Murray is forced to play point, does he do as well as BK? I don't think so. I think moving BK off the ball with Wall would have been a better backcourt than what UK has right now, which is pretty darn good.
 
If anything, the debate is up front.

Terrence Jones was great, but overshadowed by MKG and AD.
Karl Towns was great, and underutilized.
Nerlens Noel was great, until the injury.

Arguably, none of those guys could make it.

To the Murray point...would Devin Booker be doing the same as Murray this year? I think that answer, in the same situation, is yes.
 
and you can't say it is by position if moving Davis to the 4. He was the five here. So me moving Knight is basically the same thing. In any event, it is a heck of a lineup either way, but does lack shooting.
 
If anything, the debate is up front.

Terrence Jones was great, but overshadowed by MKG and AD.
Karl Towns was great, and underutilized.
Nerlens Noel was great, until the injury.

Arguably, none of those guys could make it.

To the Murray point...would Devin Booker be doing the same as Murray this year? I think that answer, in the same situation, is yes.

Devin Booker would be crushing Murray's numbers right now. IMO, Devin is possibly looked at as player of the year for the entire country. I think he would be putting up 20+ at a very high efficiency clip.
 
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Sorry man. Like others have pointed out, Knight is more a combo like Murray and I'd take Knight any day. I'd take Booker as well
 
Fair point on BK at the 2

Bet Murray ends up with better numbers

Darryl
 
Not to hijack but im in the camp that is thinking KAT>AD. KATs offense is the deciding factor, more tools, more skill.
 
Let's just say that I'd hate to have a gun to my head if I had to pick Davis or KAT
 
so knight changes from pg to sg because he found his niche in the nba, or because we would run him off the ball two or three times a game for a designed shot? brandon knight was a pg here, he didn't play off another pg right? any of his sec/ncaat tourney games he brought the ball up and ran the offense all game. guess i'm taking the by position thing too seriously.

in that case though i will hybrid anthony davis to the three like above poster thought up, with kat at the four, cousins or even wcs at five, lamb with wall. and i don't see how that team could lose lol. lamb was the perfect yang to cal's stud pg's. so was booker but we only got him one year and he didn't get to start. this is all fun to me and i don't mind being wrong. he's a favorite player like miller, cousins, patterson etc to me. but knight's career i'm so proud of. he was classy and a model student. he had a lot of pressure following wall and played a huge role in getting us to our first final four in 14 years. wall got it started, but knight broke the drought.
 
Are we just ranking the best 5 players, or trying to assemble the best team?
 
Getting harder and harder to do these type of lists...

Let's see if Murray can get to a Final 4 before we set anything in stone...I would be comfortable with moving Ulis into the "All Cal Starting 5"...he's got a 38-1 final 4 run under his belt and is playing at an all timer type of level this year...another final 4 and/or banner and it's not even a question...forget "All Cal" he'll be and all time great period...

I will say that i think Ulis and Murray are making a pretty strong push to be the best back court Cal has had...
 
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Give me Ulis, Knight, MKG, Davis, Towns with a 3 man bench of Booker, Cousins and my wild card Wiltjer.
There is probably someone you could easily slide in for Booker or Wiltjer, but on a team loaded with defensive guys like MKG,Ulis, Davis and Towns , Wiltjers ability to stretch the floor would be unreal.
 
Give me Ulis, Knight, MKG, Davis, Towns with a 3 man bench of Booker, Cousins and my wild card Wiltjer.
There is probably someone you could easily slide in for Booker or Wiltjer, but on a team loaded with defensive guys like MKG,Ulis, Davis and Towns , Wiltjers ability to stretch the floor would be unreal.
Wall?
 
I'm not dissing Murray, I'm just saying...is he a product of the situation? I think Devin Booker would be tearing it up in the SEC. Hell, he's tearing it up in the NBA.
 
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Lamb was really good. His biggest issue was consistent effort but he had a great bball IQ, was by percentage the best outside shooter in UK history, and a really good defender when he wanted to be.

Lamb, Ulis and MKG are the only 3 guards we've had that were great defenders as freshman and that's because they were all high IQ guys that had great coaching in high school.

I wish we'd take more guys from Oak Hill but Cal seems to prefer to stay away from prep schools and 5th year guys.
 
I feel crazy for not including him but i just assumed sliding Knight over to play the 1 and adding Booker off the bench. Wall would be my #2 PG behind Ulis if I had to rank Cals PG's based on college alone but given the quality amount of backcourt players Cal has had id just as soon take a shooter off the bench instead of another PG.
 
I'm not dissing Murray, I'm just saying...is he a product of the situation? I think Devin Booker would be tearing it up in the SEC. Hell, he's tearing it up in the NBA.

Thats another good point. Booker played with the ball in his hands a ton in high school and was a prolific scorer. Played off the ball here because we already had 2 really good point guards So he was more valuable as a spot up guy.

If he were in Murrays spot right now he might be doing just as good.
 
My only issue with adding Wall would be something that many on this board complain about all the time, athletes for shooters. In a Cal at UK starting 5 id probably take Ulis ahead of Wall strictly as being able to shoot better and turn it over less.
 
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Id take Ulis, Knight and Murray over Wall when building a college team. You gotta be able to space the floor in college. Smaller court and no defensive 3 seconds.
 
I also think it today's age of "call every touch foul", John Wall would've scored 5 more PPG because he would lead the nation in FT's. Look at what Ulis is doing? If Wall just hit 75% of his FT's, his numbers would've been off the charters.
 
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