If you gave Tom Izzo...
- Thread starter CUT-NETS
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Izzo would probably have 6 national championships. 240-0.
If Izzo was Cal, he would have comparable talent to Cal. Recruiting is one of the biggest aspects of coaching.
![[smoke]](http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/img/emoticons/classic/smokin.r191677.gif "Cool [smoke]")
Probably not much different than he has done.
Give Izzo a couple bad calls in the tourney and a few bad bounces and he'd become Tubby Smith.
Give Izzo a couple bad calls in the tourney and a few bad bounces and he'd become Tubby Smith.
Probably identical, except MAYBE he doesn't go to the NIT in 2013. Perhaps he wins one more title, but I doubt he goes to to four Final Fours. Doing what Izzo does is totally different than what Cal does. People are quick to forget Cal's success at smaller schools when he didn't have a huge talent disparity.
Honestly, it is mind boggling to me how when Cal started this freshmen train at UK, all the critics were very skeptical as to whether playing mostly freshmen would result in success consistently, much less Final Fours and titles, because experience and maturity (both physical and mental) is so critical. Now that he has shown it can be done, some of the critics have flipped to criticizing for not winning every game and every title. Cal has gone to four Final Fours in six years. His overall tournament record during this stretch is unprecedented in the modern era. Sure, it would have been nice to capitalize on another title, but if you have been around this game long enough, you realize that titles take a ton ability AND luck. That is why even the best programs have so few.
Honestly, it is mind boggling to me how when Cal started this freshmen train at UK, all the critics were very skeptical as to whether playing mostly freshmen would result in success consistently, much less Final Fours and titles, because experience and maturity (both physical and mental) is so critical. Now that he has shown it can be done, some of the critics have flipped to criticizing for not winning every game and every title. Cal has gone to four Final Fours in six years. His overall tournament record during this stretch is unprecedented in the modern era. Sure, it would have been nice to capitalize on another title, but if you have been around this game long enough, you realize that titles take a ton ability AND luck. That is why even the best programs have so few.
If you gave me Anthony Davis's height, I'd have gotten a lot more scholarship offers.
I still wouldn't be as good as Davis, though.
I still wouldn't be as good as Davis, though.
If? If Izzo could recruit on Cal's level you wouldn't be asking this question. That said Izzo is one of my favorites and one of the best coaches so I'd expect about the same results, maybe a final four or two less. Cal is not only a better recruiter, but a better coach too and that's saying something vs Izzo.
One of Cal's fortes is getting so many potential prima donnas to come together as a team. As many analysts have observed, that's far from easy. I doubt whether Izzo could effectively handle so many (h.s.) superstars.
I suspect Izzo would have achieved far less success. A team full of Freshmen should not be able to do what Calipari has gotten them to do time and time again. To get a group of 17-19 yr. olds who have never been coached at the level of knowledge and ability of a Division I coach to develop and come together in one year again and again is amazing. I don't think Izzo can do it.
Why are you asking questions that are completely impossible to answer?
Here's what we DO know. The results UK has had under Cal are better than the results the schools that have those other coaches have had. And that's the only thing that matters.
Here's what we DO know. The results UK has had under Cal are better than the results the schools that have those other coaches have had. And that's the only thing that matters.
Shaka 0 NT... Most likely 1 Final four at best.
Stevens, i never seen him coach young teams. However, i think he's a legit coach. He'll have multiple final four, not sure all the way to championship.
Lol cutnet you asked the question but did not answer it. I already have a idea what you will say.
What Cal has done here including recruiting cant be touched by any other coach including izzo.
Better question would be , what do you think izzo would of done with all these resources had he taken the job 7 years ago?
Because Cal has gone and above and beyond what most thought was even possible.
What Cal has done here including recruiting cant be touched by any other coach including izzo.
Better question would be , what do you think izzo would of done with all these resources had he taken the job 7 years ago?
Because Cal has gone and above and beyond what most thought was even possible.
But thats where you keep missing the point. Those other schools haven't had the talent to make it a fair comparison. The only way to know whether or not its a remarkable feat is to provide other coaches with the same level of talent and see what their results are. If they have the same amount of talent and fail miserably to have anywhere near the success Cal has had then its a rare feat and a remarkable feat by Calipari. But what if they have the same results or better? Then is it still remarkable?
You've demonstrated you have no concept of research or control groups etc etc. I believe this discussion is way over your head.
They are both good coaches, so probably the same again, except likely not four Final Fours and maybe the get one more title if the chips fell the right way.
It seems your complaint is too few titles. I mean, you can criticize anything else because Cal has been winning at an unprecedented clip, especially in the tournament. Yes, we all wish that UK would have won two or maybe even three titles, but that is life. What is the alternative? Hire someone who gets to a Final Four every three or four years and hope that they can capitalize on a title every other trip? It is highly unlikely that the results would be better and there would be a strong likelihood that the results would be worse and maybe much worse.
Oh, so you're a Socialist then. Cal is a better recruiter so it's not fair. Got it.
Smart hasn't done anything outside of a Cinderella run one season. The drawl worked out for him. Stevens is a step above but still not on Cal, or Izzo's level. I'd say neither would have a clue how to handle this much talent and would be overcome with the pressure. Calipari makes it all look so easy, a lot of people really do think he just rolls the ball out there.
Haha ok man. You got me.
Im not in any way shape or form trying to say that what Cal is doing isn't fair. Im just trying to discern how incredible this run really is given the talent he's had. If Im already a pro driver in nascar, and I have the fastest car by far in a nascar race and I consistently finish in the top four in every race is it really remarkable? I mean after all, Im a pro driver and now I have the fast car in the race. Shouldn't i finish in the top four?
I actually appreciate the response because it makes legitimate points and defends the perspective that and opinion that you don't think other coaches could do what Cal has done.
So if you build the fastest car and win it doesn't count because you had the fastest car?? Maybe you're new to competition but that is the goal for everyone, most just come up short and that's why your posting what if's.
No it counts, but is it "remarkable"? I mean after all, you built the fastest car so of course you would win. Whats so remarkable about winning with the fastest car?
Everyone, Coach Cal is the first to have #1 recruiting class.
Cut you really know how to work the rafters crowd. Lol
I see where you're going, but I have to agree with some other posters here. Recruiting is probably the single biggest (or one of) aspect of coaching. So, to me at least, that cannot be thrown to the side for a "what if". It's kind of like asking "what if" a respectable major league pitcher had a Randy Johnson slider. He'd be the best, right? We can play the game but it doesn't change the fact that he doesn't have that slider and even if he did it still might not matter. If you're just asking Is Izzo the better bench/floor coach?
I'll let the board experts chime in for that answer. I'll say this, I hate izzo's style.
I see where you're going, but I have to agree with some other posters here. Recruiting is probably the single biggest (or one of) aspect of coaching. So, to me at least, that cannot be thrown to the side for a "what if". It's kind of like asking "what if" a respectable major league pitcher had a Randy Johnson slider. He'd be the best, right? We can play the game but it doesn't change the fact that he doesn't have that slider and even if he did it still might not matter. If you're just asking Is Izzo the better bench/floor coach?
I'll let the board experts chime in for that answer. I'll say this, I hate izzo's style.
Hard to follow with your consistent inability to properly use plurals. You butcher the king's english
English is second language, so...... i don't think i care. LOL
But, it's quite clear anything that you can't argue against you go for that angle. ;-)
Hypothetical questions and conjecture are not research. To suggest otherwise is nonsensical. You may want to hold off on saying this discussion is over his head.
Why give him that talent? He has to get it and manage it himself. That's a big part of coaching at every level.
Calipari's run at UK would be a remarkable run at any school for any coach.
What about Cal taking a 4 seed to the final 4 while beating the 1 and 2 seed in the process. How come he doesn't get credit for that. How about taking an 8 seed to the National title game. Doesn't that prove he can coach?
Recruiting is 3/4 of being a coach.. If these other coaches could should do better with Cals recruits,, then why do they suck so bad at recruiting?
I'd say Izzo would do markedly worse. Handling these egos is tough. When has Izzo shown he win big with a mostly freshman rotation? It's a different task then building a roster and coaching the, up over time. Same answer for Stevens because I think those guys are system coaches. Smart shouldn't be in the discussion, he simply hasn't proven enou to warrant the speculation.
But part of the achievement is the recruiting aspect, so when you take that out of equation then you're selling what Cal has done short. What he's done here is truly remarkable which is why you don't see others do it.
Izzo NEVER has, and NEVER will win a championship playing mostly Freshmen (regardless of talent).
Why? Because he's not Coach Calipari. He's a system coach, and he needs to have a mature team to even have a shot.
If you have to GIVE another coach some hypothetical advantage to make some irrelevant point, in order to smear Calipari, might I suggest another Question. If a Troll got banned for trolling, and nobody could see the troll posts, would he still be a troll?
Why? Because he's not Coach Calipari. He's a system coach, and he needs to have a mature team to even have a shot.
If you have to GIVE another coach some hypothetical advantage to make some irrelevant point, in order to smear Calipari, might I suggest another Question. If a Troll got banned for trolling, and nobody could see the troll posts, would he still be a troll?
1. Izzo would then have to deal with teams of one and done or two and through players. How would Izzo cope without 4 year guys ?
2. Why does the OP completely ignore Cal's teams before coming to UK?
3. The op needs a few weeks time out because the constant cal bashing is now officially trolling
4. Why does the op post this when we are 9-1 and coming off a final four year?
2. Why does the OP completely ignore Cal's teams before coming to UK?
3. The op needs a few weeks time out because the constant cal bashing is now officially trolling
4. Why does the op post this when we are 9-1 and coming off a final four year?
My dad says the same thing about Pitino, that he'd do so much better than Cal if he brought in the same talent. I'll tell you what I tell him, it's the dumbest thinking ever. Having the top talent doesn't guarantee anything, they're still freshmen! I like the way Cal does it mainly because we couldn't recruit to save our lives before Cal and it's nice to see guys headed our way looking at recruiting rankings but it's not the only way to be successful and it can bite you in the ass as well. Cut-Nets you're ridiculous.
Equal titles, less final fours.
Fans always bringing up the "should have more titles" argument don't give Cal enough credit for what he's done. He has put us in a position to win a title 4 of his 6 years here. I'll give you that we should probably have 2 titles (2012 and last year). However, we had no business being in the FF in 2011 and 2014. We should have made the FF in 2010 but a well documented weakness of ours cost us, as we all thought it eventually would.
The truth is that once you reach the FF it's a crapshoot and the best team doesn't always win. You are an off night or some foul trouble away from being knocked out by an inferior opponent. If the FF was a best of 5 series then no doubt we have more titles, but when it comes down to one night it doesn't mean the best team is always going to win. Anyone think the Milwaukee Bucks are better than the GS Warriors after last night? Doubt it, but if that was a FF game then Golden State is loading up and going back home empty-handed.
Bottom line is that Cal puts his team in position to win championships more frequently than any coach in the country.
Fans always bringing up the "should have more titles" argument don't give Cal enough credit for what he's done. He has put us in a position to win a title 4 of his 6 years here. I'll give you that we should probably have 2 titles (2012 and last year). However, we had no business being in the FF in 2011 and 2014. We should have made the FF in 2010 but a well documented weakness of ours cost us, as we all thought it eventually would.
The truth is that once you reach the FF it's a crapshoot and the best team doesn't always win. You are an off night or some foul trouble away from being knocked out by an inferior opponent. If the FF was a best of 5 series then no doubt we have more titles, but when it comes down to one night it doesn't mean the best team is always going to win. Anyone think the Milwaukee Bucks are better than the GS Warriors after last night? Doubt it, but if that was a FF game then Golden State is loading up and going back home empty-handed.
Bottom line is that Cal puts his team in position to win championships more frequently than any coach in the country.
Was I hallucinating, or was it ol' Ricky P who went 1-1 vs Cal when Rick had the best CBB team of all time and Cal had 2 high major offers on his entire roster?
And now that he's 1-7 vs Cal with both at big boy schools - yes, yes, I'd say it's becoming pretty clear how much better he is than Cal.
All great points. And more. I started to write more, but I don't even know where to begin.
