If you are a Governor when you open things back up ?

[goukcatsgo]

Though it is impossible to pinpoint the moment of transmission and Italy hasn’t counted how many people who tested positive attended the match, epidemiologists uniformly view these mass gatherings as accelerants to widespread infection.

Weren’t people freaked out about spring breakers in Florida? Nashville SEC tournament weekend? Mardi Gras in New Orleans?

Hell I was watching NBA TV as they were cutting in to cancel a game because a player tested positive. A player who jokingly intentionally tried to spread it to everyone else on the team and, what, one other person got it?

There were plenty of sporting events happening in the US up through mid March.


Point being, every prediction the “experts” have made so far has been wrong. So I don’t really care to hear assumptions that a soccer match is to blame with no actual data. We can just as easily attribute the disease to lunar cycles if we’re picking random events but not actually studying cause.

Not really. I agree, that most assumptions have been wrong. But we are to the point now where we are getting better info. A ton of people at that match ended up with it. We now know that yelling and singing project the droplets similar to coughing and sneezing. We also know that surfaces "aren't a big problem"

So, a ton of people yelling at a soccer match where a huge chunk end up with the virus tells me that it transmits in those settings.

I'm not on "teamandy" or "teamfreakout". But we've seen enough outbreaks in churches and from mass gatherings to know that big gatherings of people are probably a bad idea. We also know that going out to eat, going shopping, spending the day around a nice group of friends isn't a bad thing.

To me, I think we could probably return largely to normal with the exception of mass gatherings. Leaders like Andy think that if they loosen things up that much they are admitting they are wrong... That's what sad. Because the best leaders adjust and don't worry about if they were perfect in their original decision making.

Also, this is the game that many link to helping spread the virus much quicker.

https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/ne...atch-contributed-to-italys-covid-19-outbreak/

 

[Bill Cosby]

Not really. I agree, that most assumptions have been wrong. But we are to the point now where we are getting better info. A ton of people at that match ended up with it. We now know that yelling and singing project the droplets similar to coughing and sneezing. We also know that surfaces "aren't a big problem"

So, a ton of people yelling at a soccer match where a huge chunk end up with the virus tells me that it transmits in those settings.

I'm not on "teamandy" or "teamfreakout". But we've seen enough outbreaks in churches and from mass gatherings to know that big gatherings of people are probably a bad idea. We also know that going out to eat, going shopping, spending the day around a nice group of friends isn't a bad thing.

To me, I think we could probably return largely to normal with the exception of mass gatherings. Leaders like Andy think that if they loosen things up that much they are admitting they are wrong... That's what sad. Because the best leaders adjust and don't worry about if they were perfect in their original decision making.

Also, this is the game that many link to helping spread the virus much quicker.

https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/ne...atch-contributed-to-italys-covid-19-outbreak/

Again, unless I'm missing something, that article say's it's probable, but apparently no one has actually determined who was at the game, and who got sick.

The sky-is-falling predicters have not earned the benefit of the doubt. Quite the contrary, they've been wrong every step of the way and should be forced to defend their numbers.

I'm not going to accept a soccer game "probably" contributing to the spread of COVID being used as a reason to prevent UK from playing football this season, when apparently no one has taken the time to figure out how many people at the game came down with the disease.

 

[goukcatsgo]

Again, unless I'm missing something, that article say's it's probable, but apparently no one has actually determined who was at the game, and who got sick.

The sky-is-falling predicters have not earned the benefit of the doubt. Quite the contrary, they've been wrong every step of the way and should be forced to defend their numbers.

I'm not going to accept a soccer game "probably" contributing to the spread of COVID being used as a reason to prevent UK from playing football this season, when apparently no one has taken the time to figure out how many people at the game came down with the disease.

I’m no chicken little, but northern Italy actually reached the point of rationing care. They continued with mass gatherings well past the point that we did in relation to the # of known cases. To doubt that mass gatherings accelerated the spread is ignoring all common sense.

 

[Bill Cosby]

I’m no chicken little, but northern Italy actually reached the point of rationing care. They continued with mass gatherings well past the point that we did in relation to the # of known cases. To doubt that mass gatherings accelerated the spread is ignoring all common sense.

So are we going by common sense or science?

 

[rupp876]

So are we going by common sense or science?

I would never have shut anything down in the first place.

 

[TheShowKiller]

There is still a lot we don’t know but certainly a lot we do know now and I don’t understand why we can’t have more of a general agreement as a society with the education of our leaders than this barrage of arbitrary mandates, some which are unrealistic and unenforceable.

In summation:

Large gatherings (especially indoors) where you might be singing or cheering = still probably a no go unless you want to mask everyone or figure out a social distancing policy.

Small to medium size gatherings are probably ok, especially if they are outdoors or in a place that you can keep a reasonable distance.

Masks, if you are in confined to densely populated indoor spaces (subway, bus, etc) probably a good idea. If you are part of the vulnerable population, probably a good idea. However, if you are a healthy person and going to a public place where you are going to limit your distance from people and not sing or scream at them, probably ok to go about your business without one.

Let’s put time money and research in creating protocols and protecting the LTC facilities and jails that were ravaged by this thing.

 

[anthonys735]

I would never have shut anything down in the first place.

The shutdowns aren't the problem especially with the situations in Italy, France and Spain at the time. It was the right call at the time. The problem is we didn't have a clue what to do after that and have been tripping over ourselves scared to make a decision since. Kentucky, not all states, is at least 4 weeks late in opening and really more if we are talking about specific industries like retail, horse racing, barber shops, chiropractors, and elective medicine, etc.

That month closed a bunch of businesses for good and left even more without work and there's no statistics to justify the continued lock down for MOST of these businesses.

That's why last night he spent 45 of 50 minutes talking about the dumbass trash protesters and The Paddock bar. Only 5 minutes at the end on the fact we had 3 deaths in 4 days and decreases in cases, %pos, and hospitalizations. Bury the good news.

 

[cole854]

Large gatherings (especially indoors) where you might be singing or cheering = still probably a no go unless you want to mask everyone or figure out a social distancing policy.

Small to medium size gatherings are probably ok, especially if they are outdoors or in a place that you can keep a reasonable distance.

Not being flippant, but what is the line and/or # for large vs small vs medium size gatherings....If I am in a group of 50 people or 1000 people at an event...I am still only around the dozen or so near me. There is no scientific evidence that one or the other is better or worse....in fact, I am crossing paths with as many or more people at Kroger.

33% at restaurants on May 22nd...then 50% a month later. Where is the magical 17% safety increase data? All of these arbitrary percentages and dates are pointless...same with masks for the most part.

 

[Phil_The_Music]

There is still a lot we don’t know but certainly a lot we do know now and I don’t understand why we can’t have more of a general agreement as a society with the education of our leaders than this barrage of arbitrary mandates, some which are unrealistic and unenforceable.

In summation:

Large gatherings (especially indoors) where you might be singing or cheering = still probably a no go unless you want to mask everyone or figure out a social distancing policy.

Small to medium size gatherings are probably ok, especially if they are outdoors or in a place that you can keep a reasonable distance.

Masks, if you are in confined to densely populated indoor spaces (subway, bus, etc) probably a good idea. If you are part of the vulnerable population, probably a good idea. However, if you are a healthy person and going to a public place where you are going to limit your distance from people and not sing or scream at them, probably ok to go about your business without one.

Let’s put time money and research in creating protocols and protecting the LTC facilities and jails that were ravaged by this thing.

This is all very reasonable and is common sense stuff. I believe more people would be willing to listen to our "leaders" if they made sense like this. Instead they come up with the most arbitrary and bizarre rules you can imagine and people are just saying screw it.

 

[TheShowKiller]

Not being flippant, but what is the line and/or # for large vs small vs medium size gatherings....If I am in a group of 50 people or 1000 people at an event...I am still only around the dozen or so near me. There is no scientific evidence that one or the other is better or worse....in fact, I am crossing paths with as many or more people at Kroger.

33% at restaurants on May 22nd...then 50% a month later. Where is the magical 17% safety increase data? All of these arbitrary percentages and dates are pointless...same with masks for the most part.

I tend to agree with you, much of this is arbitrary and for every study and statistic on one side you can find the like on another. That's why I think our government should be focusing much more on education/encouragement than on mandating/enforcement.

However, I do think it's pretty clear that in enclosed spaces where you are sharing air and/or coming into actual physical contact it can and will spread efficiently. Like most viruses. That's why we have a flu season usually when people have to go back inside and when school starts up and kids are hoarded into tight spaces indoors. That's why the jails, LTC facilities, and densely populated public spaces took a hit. But I don't have to tell you this, you know it...everyone knows it.

To answer your question, my personal definition of mass gatherings are the large sporting events like college football or basketball where your concourses and bathrooms look like a NY subway terminal. Also, those type of events usually get people from all other areas of the region to congregate then return to their communities. I'm not suggesting you can't do it at all but it's going to take some caution.

Anything under that is a matter of perspective. The more open air, sun and space...the better. Sometimes its less about the number and more about the setting.

 

[Bill Cosby]

If we go back to day one, with all the data we have now, and all the demographic detail we have on actual COVID deaths not just assumed, do we cancel the United States and all the sporting events, or do we treat it like the normal flu, H1N1, etc.?

Yes, COVID probably spreads in close quarters. Just like every other germ.

In the face of all the data coming out, it seems like people are just unwilling to admit they overreacted and would prefer to keep moving the goal posts.

 

[CB3UK]

This is all very reasonable and is common sense stuff. I believe more people would be willing to listen to our "leaders" if they made sense like this. Instead they come up with the most arbitrary and bizarre rules you can imagine and people are just saying screw it.

You hit the nail on the head. If there was and had been reasonable common sense scale back coordinated with timely testing rollout and an obvious and very public effort to help combat the high risk areas ie nursing homes and jails, etc, people would still be listening.

Show us you made the call that made sense at the time but now acknowledge its time to move back to normalcy and that common sense efforts are being made to protect those most at risk from dying from it while letting everyone else, which is a huge majority of Kentuckians, get back to life.

Im sorry....390 deaths in a state of 4.5 million people. Where we are in reopening phase wise is completely unnacceptable. Not to mention the wholesale unemployment payout debacle. I feel for folks who havent been able to work this whole time, I hope those of yall out there in that boat are doing OK.

 

[cole854]

In the face of all the data coming out, it seems like people are just unwilling to admit they overreacted and would prefer to keep moving the goal posts.

This will be the b.s we have to deal with....the Beshear sheep will say that the low numbers are due to his policies, and the others will say that it may not have ever been that bad had we stayed open more.

What can't be disputed, however, is the economic ruin that was a direct result of his policies.

 

[CB3UK]

It just feels like now he's doubling down and digging instead of admitting he got way too overzealous. Thats piss poor leadership.

None of us want anyone to get sick. Thats common sense. But the reality, in my opinion, is these measures (which I feel we ALL agree at the time when we knew zilch about the seriousness of the threat were OK if unprecedented) are only OK in the face of large scale fatalities in the state. Im sure someone can go and count the number of deaths from the 390 that were nursing home and inmate related. Id wager the death count drops by half.

Im sorry. Really, I am. I cant imagine losing a loved one to something this random and hope none of you have been one of those unfortunate families.

But at this point, its almost June, and the number of families being affected by joblessness, the number of small business owners who are hanging on by a thread or who have closed their doors for good over this....that number now FAAAAAAR exceeds that death toll.

Yes, it is callous to say it. But its reality. And when you sign up for public office making those kind of hard decisions where half the people are going to hate you whichever way you go is what you sign up for.

Common sense protocol needs to be inplemented across the board and places need to be reopened. Weve seen far worse viruses than this and never done anything this large scale. I dont believe it started out as a political and big business money grab but its clearly evolved into that. Why is Lowes open, with a staff of 50 and 100 customers inside at any given time OK but the mom and pop hardware store on High St closed with a staff of 3 and maybe 5 people inside. The list of idiotic decisions and arbitrary nature of both their implementation and enforcement has been absolutely atrocious.

 

[GYERater]

My gym put links to different states requirements for reopening, Kentucky's requirements are 5 pages long. Compared it to Indiana which had about 15 bullet points that fit on half a page. I mean really Andy, get over yourself.

 

[anthonys735]

It's all political now. He's basically running a State of the Commonwealth commercial every day and only talks facts about 10% of the time. Rest of the time is focused on protests, at home voting, census, and Twitter posts. It's ridiculous.

 

[PhDcat2018]

Not being flippant, but what is the line and/or # for large vs small vs medium size gatherings....If I am in a group of 50 people or 1000 people at an event...I am still only around the dozen or so near me. There is no scientific evidence that one or the other is better or worse....in fact, I am crossing paths with as many or more people at Kroger.

33% at restaurants on May 22nd...then 50% a month later. Where is the magical 17% safety increase data? All of these arbitrary percentages and dates are pointless...same with masks for the most part.

Completely agree with the arbitrary nature of the restrictions lifting.

He's trying the Democrat way to get to congress. Fear and control.

 

[Bill Cosby]

Still, the pull of the sunk-cost fallacy to provide ex post rationales for irrational behavior is a powerful thing.

This problem now afflicts thousands of politicians in America. Much of the preposterous rituals we are going through – these distancing restrictions, mask mandates, occupancy limits, and so on – are nothing but imposed protocols to give the impression that it is a very dangerous and virus-infected world out there, so the lockdown was correct even if the virus turned out to be almost nothing at all for 99% of the public.

It would be similar to a mayor who irrationally ordered evacuation for a half-inch of rain to later order returning residents to wear rubber boots and eye goggles for a month. It’s a way of spreading and sharing fear to deflect from the egregious errors of the mayor himself. It’s ex post justification for coercing people pointlessly but trying to avoid blame (“We didn’t know anything about the storm, so we did the right thing.”).

Thus will we continue this opening-up kabuki dance for a few more months simply so that the politicians and panicked among us can save face and avoid admitting error.

And yet, daily the evidence pours in of the calamity. The latest calculations of loss reveal wreckage far beyond that of deaths from COVID-19.

https://www.aier.org/article/will-the-politicians-admit-their-lockdown-mistake/

 

[anthonys735]

Just leave this right here.

 

[GYERater]

At least they are doing a good job of processing claims, only 10,000 people are awaiting payments from March and the portal seems to be working great...

The Education and Workforce Development Cabinet received two reports of a vulnerability in the online portal that allowed people filing claims to view documents that other people had uploaded to the system to help prove their identity to the state.

Josh Benton, deputy secretary of the Education and Workforce Development Cabinet, said that within three hours of learning about the issue the online portal was taken down, the ability to view uploaded documents was taken away and by midnight a software "patch" had fixed the problem.

Benton stressed that his cabinet hasn't been told of any cases of identity theft or financial harm tied to the breach. But he conceded it's impossible to know for sure how many sensitive documents could have been viewed before the problem was fixed.

https://www.courier-journal.com/sto...eshear-moves-office-amid-pandemic/5279562002/

 

[Booker Noe]

I had a furlough week in April and one in May. My employer e-filed for us so all I had to do is put in my bank info and request payment the Monday after. Got paid by The Thursday after

But I cannot imagine what people are having to go thru that are filing on their own. That seems to be the issue.

 

[WynnDuffy]

And that happened in April, but is just today being disclosed to the public. None of the affected individuals have yet been notified, six weeks after the fact.

Unemployment is also being moved to the Labor Cabinet, apparently because Education/Workforce has proven unable to address any of the above issues. Unemployment hasn’t been in the Labor Cabinet since the Patton administration, if I recall correctly (may be wrong, but it’s been a long time nonetheless).

It would seem like these developments should be front page news, with reporters asking lots of well deserved questions, no?

 

[Mashburned]

Only 5 minutes at the end on the fact we had 3 deaths in 4 days and decreases in cases, %pos, and hospitalizations. Bury the good news.

That’s 3 death too many.

Andy won’t be bullied, he will do whatever it takes to save lives.

This stupid state and country need to wake up and realize what’s going on here. We have let our leaders set some very dangerous precedents.

 

[PhDcat2018]

That’s 3 death too many.

Andy won’t be bullied, he will do whatever it takes to save lives.

This stupid state and country need to wake up and realize what’s going on here. We have let our leaders set some very dangerous precedents.

How many lives have to die from every other reason to get fools to "wake up" and realize what's going on here?

 

[fatguy87]

The lockdowns could have been the right decision given what little we knew at the time despite them proving to be ineffective or maybe harmful in the long run. Mitigating the worst case scenario when it can be catastrophic is sound. Knowing how things turned out does not mean the decision in the moment was wrong. UK is down by 2 and Doron Lamb takes and misses a wide open 3 to win. Taking the 3 wasn't the wrong choice in that situation just because the ball didn't go in the hoop.

Of course, I'm sure a governor isn't willing to spout such a nuanced take. Caressing the virtues of the electorate is more effective to their ends than rigor and principles.

 

[cole854]

Just leave this right here.

View embedded media

We'll get through this together....

 

[cole854]

Something to be said for leadership, versus having a reality show each day at 5.

https://www.city-journal.org/florida-evidence-based-reopening-working

 

[CB3UK]

Something to be said for leadership, versus having a reality show each day at 5.

https://www.city-journal.org/florida-evidence-based-reopening-working

Absolutely. One of the few silver linings of this insanity has been exposing just how easily and readily the libs are willing to just hand over everyone's rights for a completely unfounded sense of security. The media doubled down with its fear mongering. Hopefully folks in the middle of the road have learned a lesson from all this madness.