How today is like the end of the Tubby Smith era and how it’s not

[bkingUK]

Gather round kids and rookies not around in from 2006-2008. Let me educate you on Kentucky basketball internet history. Comparisons are being made to this era. There are some similarities. There are also some differences. I’ll let you decide.

Let me take you to a different time. An era AOL message boards and chat rooms were being replaced by Facebooks and MySpaces. A time when CatsPause was Rivals, where KentuckySportsRadio advertising was dependent on Matt Jones posting on message boards and a time when there was a battle for the soul of Kentucky basketball.

Tubby Smith, as well all know, won a national championship in 1998. His style of play, however, immediately drew backlash to fans of Pitino’s run and gun style. Immediately, memes of “Tubby can only win with Pitino’s players” were murmured.

But at end of ‘05, Kentucky was coming off three pretty good seasons, depending on your point of view.

In 2003, Kentucky went full beast mode, dominating #1 Florida and coasting through the SEC undefeated. We lost, however, in elite 8, following a Keith Bogans high ankle sprain.

While very good in ‘04, a 2nd round upset to UAB and some guy named Squeaky Johnson sowed discontent. The morale began to turn.

In ‘05, Kentucky lost to Michigan State in double OT in the elite 8, further extending a 7 year Final Four drought.

Even worse, recruiting had stalled to the level of Moorehead State. The incoming class was 4 star Jared Carter (who might have started 1 game in 4 years), JUCO Rekalin Sims (who Im pretty sure served jail time) and Adam Williams (who might’ve never gotten in a game). UNC was peaking. Pitino at Louisville was making waves. Kentucky was in jeopardy.

The fanbase became reckless and polarized. On one hand, we were coming off three seasons where Kentucky was either #1 or #2 at some point (or in elite 8 with likes of Rajon Rondo in 2005). On the other hand, there was reason to question if they could ever turn the corner again. There was also hope a couple pieces added would help do it.

Further complicating this, in the infancy of Kentucky basketball internet, we saw something we’ve never seen before. Groups arose, committed to the idea that Tubby Smith must be ran off or fired, and went to extreme lengths to see it happen. Losing was a good thing. Any assemblance of a victory had to be downplayed. Websites were made. Email campaigns to Mitch Barnhart commenced. War was declared.

Recruiting took a further hit. Guys like Brandan Wright went elsewhere. Kentucky lost one recruit to a prep school. Tubby Smith, already known for being stronger defensive coach than anything, took criticism for his slow offensive style. This, on top of perception of unrest in fanbase, compounded recruiting issues.

The following year, we landed a class consisting of Jodie Meeks (4 star), Derrick Jasper (4 star 6’5 PG), Perry Stevenson (borderline 3/4 star), Ramon Harris (3 star) and Michael Porter (2 star and did a crime that we shouldn’t mention). After losing Rondo to NBA, our PG play was dependent on Jasper, who underwhelmed and transferred to UNLV.

After that season, we had two players who were thought could make or break Tubby’s tenure: Jai Lucas and Patrick Patterson. They were thought to be a package deal. We needed a PG. We needed a big. Lucas want to Florida. PPat to UK. And ironically, we did end up getting both over the span of 13 years.

But I digress. Eventually the pressure overcame Tubby Smith. Questions nagged for 10 years, but the pressure really amped up for 3.

This, of course, led to Billy Gillispie, who brought his own brand of shit show.

But there have been comparisons made to this time and that time. Yes. There are similarities. There are also differences.

 

[liveblue92]

Great recap. I was in middle school and high school back then and thought Tubby walked on water. I went to Tubby Smith basketball camp in 7th grade. Tubby had some very good teams, but really trailed off in the last few years. Pretty similar to what is going on right now. Let’s hope Cal has the integrity that Tubby had and knows when to cut bait.

 

[STL_Cat]

I read all that waiting for the similarities and differences? Great recap of the Tubby era, though.

I do remember all of that very, very well. Was here for all of it.

 

[bkingUK]

I read all that waiting for the similarities and differences? Great recap of the Tubby era, though.

I do remember all of that very, very well. Was here for all of it.

We can see the similarities but there are a few key differences. The primary knock on Tubby was recruiting and style of play. I think this is one reason why Calipari was perceived as such a godsend in recruiting (he’s a master at it Calipari has a recruiting problem, but it’s not a matter of bringing in talent.

Other thing is that Tubby could not get out from under the cloud of winning with Pitino’s players. He still battles with that perception. Calipari has a longer track record at multiple schools and has proven he can do it multiple times.

Tubby’s style of play criticism is almost the polar opposite of Calipari’s. Tubby had a very controlled style on both sides of the ball. Ball line defense, zones and slow down the pace. Calipari’s style is very open offensively followed by man to man and quarter court pressing.

The glaring similarities are discontent and subpar performances. I don’t think we are to 2007 levels (and certainly not to Gillispie levels). I think a bad NCAAT showing could be pretty devastating though.

 

[STL_Cat]

We can see the similarities but there are a few key differences. The primary knock on Tubby was recruiting and style of play. I think this is one reason why Calipari was perceived as such a godsend in recruiting (he’s a master at it Calipari has a recruiting problem, but it’s not a matter of bringing in talent.

Other thing is that Tubby could not get out from under the cloud of winning with Pitino’s players. He still battles with that perception. Calipari has a longer track record at multiple schools and has proven he can do it multiple times.

Tubby’s style of play criticism is almost the polar opposite of Calipari’s. Tubby had a very controlled style on both sides of the ball. Ball line defense, zones and slow down the pace. Calipari’s style is very open offensively followed by man to man and quarter court pressing.

The glaring similarities are discontent and subpar performances. I don’t think we are to 2007 levels (and certainly not to Gillispie levels). I think a bad NCAAT showing could be pretty devastating though.

Fair differences. I'll push back a little on your comments on the offense. Certainly they run a different style of offense, but I think we're at a point where people are just as frustrated with the offensive "scheme" Cal rolls out there as they were Tubby's. It's different, but it's still bad.

As I said before this year and am still saying now, a lot of how I feel about the Cal Era hinges on this year. You can't follow up a 9-16 season at Kentucky with another bad season, especially in the middle of now what is a 6 and will be a 7 year Final Four drought if it doesn't happen this year. This is potentially worse than NY two year stretch we ever had under Tubby. Again, hinges on this year. So far, not great. A lot of basketball to be played though.

 

[STL_Cat]

I will say this is one MAJOR similarity, and the biggest one for me. It's the word lazy. That's the word that got tossed around a lot during the end of Tubby's tenure here. And that's the word we are starting to see a lot of with Cal. Is it true? Was it true in either case? I don't know. But that's a dirty word.

 

[bkingUK]

I will say this is one MAJOR similarity, and the biggest one for me. It's the word lazy. That's the word that got tossed around a lot during the end of Tubby's tenure here. And that's the word we are starting to see a lot of with Cal. Is it true? Was it true in either case? I don't know. But that's a dirty word.

I didn’t agree that Tubby was lazy and I don’t think Calipari is. Tubby certainly had the capital to bring in recruiters or delegate such tasks. I think part of his problem was his dedication to program guys to the nth degree. Where Calipari wouldn’t think twice to recruit a 5 star, even if there were other players in place, Tubby was much more conservative when we already had talent at a position. He also wanted 4 year guys he could mold, almost to a fault.

I do agree this year could make or break. The exception to that is though, Shaedeon Sharpe and a stud recruiting class. That’s something Tubby or Gillispie couldn’t hang their hats on. We know Calipari can win with talent. He’s proved it at three schools. We’ve also not had that caliber of talent consistently since 2015

 

[STL_Cat]

I didn’t agree that Tubby was lazy and I don’t think Calipari is. Tubby certainly had the capital to bring in recruiters or delegate such tasks. I think part of his problem was his dedication to program guys to the nth degree. Where Calipari wouldn’t think twice to recruit a 5 star, even if there were other players in place, Tubby was much more conservative when we already had talent at a position. He also wanted 4 year guys he could mold, almost to a fault.

I do agree this year could make or break. The exception to that is though, Shaedeon Sharpe and a stud recruiting class. That’s something Tubby or Gillispie couldn’t hang their hats on. We know Calipari can win with talent. He’s proved it at three schools. We’ve also not had that caliber of talent consistently since 2015

I'm super excited about the class that's coming in next year, but if this year goes sideways ... like really sideways (like I promise you I do NOT hope that it does), what's coming in next year is not going to cushion that blow much. People are getting kind of tired of hearing about what's coming in next year, tbh. We're done with that game. At least I will be.

 

[Padsfs07]

Fair differences. I'll push back a little on your comments on the offense. Certainly they run a different style of offense, but I think we're at a point where people are just as frustrated with the offensive "scheme" Cal rolls out there as they were Tubby's. It's different, but it's still bad.

Offensively, it was easy to see with Tubby:

Tubby's PPG each year: 80, 75, 69, 80, 77, 77, 74, 74, 71, 73

Cal has followed a similar trend in recent years, starting in 15/16: 80, 85, 77, 76, 74, 70 ....until this year which we are at 80. So maybe it's a 1-game screw-up against ND, maybe it's all the cupcakes...we will see.

 

[TankedCat]

We can see the similarities but there are a few key differences. The primary knock on Tubby was recruiting and style of play. I think this is one reason why Calipari was perceived as such a godsend in recruiting (he’s a master at it Calipari has a recruiting problem, but it’s not a matter of bringing in talent.

Other thing is that Tubby could not get out from under the cloud of winning with Pitino’s players. He still battles with that perception. Calipari has a longer track record at multiple schools and has proven he can do it multiple times.

Tubby’s style of play criticism is almost the polar opposite of Calipari’s. Tubby had a very controlled style on both sides of the ball. Ball line defense, zones and slow down the pace. Calipari’s style is very open offensively followed by man to man and quarter court pressing.

The glaring similarities are discontent and subpar performances. I don’t think we are to 2007 levels (and certainly not to Gillispie levels). I think a bad NCAAT showing could be pretty devastating though.

Gillispie was a train wreck for many reasons. The players I believe essentially mutinied on him on senior night. I don't blame them to be honest. But that said, I don't see a 9 win season with Gillispie. Maybe we were going there, but I think the thing about Tubby and Gillispie is they had a ceiling but they also had a baseline.

I gave up on Gillispie pretty quick mainly because of what I was hearing from people in Lexington, but I think he was old school, we'll be above .500 on sheer will kind of coach even if it kills me. Tubby never even had an NIT. Who would have thought that in Cal's 12th year here he'd more statistically closer to Tubby than Pitino? Cal has managed to eclipse Tubby and Gillispie from not only the highest highs but also the lowest of lows.

Last year was just - well - completely out of the margins for a coach at Kentucky, especially one of Cal's stature. That stature is really the only reason he has any rope with the fans now.

 

[VA/UK]

Gather round kids and rookies not around in from 2006-2008. Let me educate you on Kentucky basketball internet history. Comparisons are being made to this era. There are some similarities. There are also some differences. I’ll let you decide.

Let me take you to a different time. An era AOL message boards and chat rooms were being replaced by Facebooks and MySpaces. A time when CatsPause was Rivals, where KentuckySportsRadio advertising was dependent on Matt Jones posting on message boards and a time when there was a battle for the soul of Kentucky basketball.

Tubby Smith, as well all know, won a national championship in 1998. His style of play, however, immediately drew backlash to fans of Pitino’s run and gun style. Immediately, memes of “Tubby can only win with Pitino’s players” were murmured.

But at end of ‘05, Kentucky was coming off three pretty good seasons, depending on your point of view.

In 2003, Kentucky went full beast mode, dominating #1 Florida and coasting through the SEC undefeated. We lost, however, in elite 8, following a Keith Bogans high ankle sprain.

While very good in ‘04, a 2nd round upset to UAB and some guy named Squeaky Johnson sowed discontent. The morale began to turn.

In ‘05, Kentucky lost to Michigan State in double OT in the elite 8, further extending a 7 year Final Four drought.

Even worse, recruiting had stalled to the level of Moorehead State. The incoming class was 4 star Jared Carter (who might have started 1 game in 4 years), JUCO Rekalin Sims (who Im pretty sure served jail time) and Adam Williams (who might’ve never gotten in a game). UNC was peaking. Pitino at Louisville was making waves. Kentucky was in jeopardy.

The fanbase became reckless and polarized. On one hand, we were coming off three seasons where Kentucky was either #1 or #2 at some point (or in elite 8 with likes of Rajon Rondo in 2005). On the other hand, there was reason to question if they could ever turn the corner again. There was also hope a couple pieces added would help do it.

Further complicating this, in the infancy of Kentucky basketball internet, we saw something we’ve never seen before. Groups arose, committed to the idea that Tubby Smith must be ran off or fired, and went to extreme lengths to see it happen. Losing was a good thing. Any assemblance of a victory had to be downplayed. Websites were made. Email campaigns to Mitch Barnhart commenced. War was declared.

Recruiting took a further hit. Guys like Brandan Wright went elsewhere. Kentucky lost one recruit to a prep school. Tubby Smith, already known for being stronger defensive coach than anything, took criticism for his slow offensive style. This, on top of perception of unrest in fanbase, compounded recruiting issues.

The following year, we landed a class consisting of Jodie Meeks (4 star), Derrick Jasper (4 star 6’5 PG), Perry Stevenson (borderline 3/4 star), Ramon Harris (3 star) and Michael Porter (2 star and did a crime that we shouldn’t mention). After losing Rondo to NBA, our PG play was dependent on Jasper, who underwhelmed and transferred to UNLV.

After that season, we had two players who were thought could make or break Tubby’s tenure: Jai Lucas and Patrick Patterson. They were thought to be a package deal. We needed a PG. We needed a big. Lucas want to Florida. PPat to UK. And ironically, we did end up getting both over the span of 13 years.

But I digress. Eventually the pressure overcame Tubby Smith. Questions nagged for 10 years, but the pressure really amped up for 3.

This, of course, led to Billy Gillispie, who brought his own brand of shit show.

But there have been comparisons made to this time and that time. Yes. There are similarities. There are also differences.

Good recap except you downplay the direction the program was heading at the time of Tubb’s departure: it was in free fall. Tubby’s recruiting was in free fall as well. Good job otherwise.

 

[kyjeff1]

Basically, what it boils down to is, after 10 years here, the coach just needs to move on. This job ages you and burns you out.

How long has Cal heen here?

 

[CELTICAT]

Key difference is what we saw in the off season, where Cal has shaken up his staff, and it's apparently already paid dividends on the recruiting trail.

Key similarity is offensive stagnation. Running the same sets for literally 8 seasons and everybody has a gameplan for it.

 

[UKWildcats1987]

Basically, what it boils down to is, after 10 years here, the coach just needs to move on. This job ages you and burns you out.

How long has Cal heen here?

Plus, these guys cannot win a 2nd title here. Once they win one, do the LSU thing and make a change a few years after.

 

[Gromcat]

I'm super excited about the class that's coming in next year, but if this year goes sideways ... like really sideways (like I promise you I do NOT hope that it does), what's coming in next year is not going to cushion that blow much. People are getting kind of tired of hearing about what's coming in next year, tbh. We're done with that game. At least I will be.

You guys might want to pump the brakes on this next class coming in. I don’t see a super class, not even close. It’s being overrated badly. This is about to get worse.

Cool story Bk.

 

[RipThru]

Gather round kids and rookies not around in from 2006-2008. Let me educate you on Kentucky basketball internet history. Comparisons are being made to this era. There are some similarities. There are also some differences. I’ll let you decide.

Let me take you to a different time. An era AOL message boards and chat rooms were being replaced by Facebooks and MySpaces. A time when CatsPause was Rivals, where KentuckySportsRadio advertising was dependent on Matt Jones posting on message boards and a time when there was a battle for the soul of Kentucky basketball.

Tubby Smith, as well all know, won a national championship in 1998. His style of play, however, immediately drew backlash to fans of Pitino’s run and gun style. Immediately, memes of “Tubby can only win with Pitino’s players” were murmured.

But at end of ‘05, Kentucky was coming off three pretty good seasons, depending on your point of view.

In 2003, Kentucky went full beast mode, dominating #1 Florida and coasting through the SEC undefeated. We lost, however, in elite 8, following a Keith Bogans high ankle sprain.

While very good in ‘04, a 2nd round upset to UAB and some guy named Squeaky Johnson sowed discontent. The morale began to turn.

In ‘05, Kentucky lost to Michigan State in double OT in the elite 8, further extending a 7 year Final Four drought.

Even worse, recruiting had stalled to the level of Moorehead State. The incoming class was 4 star Jared Carter (who might have started 1 game in 4 years), JUCO Rekalin Sims (who Im pretty sure served jail time) and Adam Williams (who might’ve never gotten in a game). UNC was peaking. Pitino at Louisville was making waves. Kentucky was in jeopardy.

The fanbase became reckless and polarized. On one hand, we were coming off three seasons where Kentucky was either #1 or #2 at some point (or in elite 8 with likes of Rajon Rondo in 2005). On the other hand, there was reason to question if they could ever turn the corner again. There was also hope a couple pieces added would help do it.

Further complicating this, in the infancy of Kentucky basketball internet, we saw something we’ve never seen before. Groups arose, committed to the idea that Tubby Smith must be ran off or fired, and went to extreme lengths to see it happen. Losing was a good thing. Any assemblance of a victory had to be downplayed. Websites were made. Email campaigns to Mitch Barnhart commenced. War was declared.

Recruiting took a further hit. Guys like Brandan Wright went elsewhere. Kentucky lost one recruit to a prep school. Tubby Smith, already known for being stronger defensive coach than anything, took criticism for his slow offensive style. This, on top of perception of unrest in fanbase, compounded recruiting issues.

The following year, we landed a class consisting of Jodie Meeks (4 star), Derrick Jasper (4 star 6’5 PG), Perry Stevenson (borderline 3/4 star), Ramon Harris (3 star) and Michael Porter (2 star and did a crime that we shouldn’t mention). After losing Rondo to NBA, our PG play was dependent on Jasper, who underwhelmed and transferred to UNLV.

After that season, we had two players who were thought could make or break Tubby’s tenure: Jai Lucas and Patrick Patterson. They were thought to be a package deal. We needed a PG. We needed a big. Lucas want to Florida. PPat to UK. And ironically, we did end up getting both over the span of 13 years.

But I digress. Eventually the pressure overcame Tubby Smith. Questions nagged for 10 years, but the pressure really amped up for 3.

This, of course, led to Billy Gillispie, who brought his own brand of shit show.

But there have been comparisons made to this time and that time. Yes. There are similarities. There are also differences.

Good post.

 

[STL_Cat]

You guys might want to pump the brakes on this next class coming in. I don’t see a super class, not even close. It’s being overrated badly. This is about to get worse.

Cool story Bk.

Trying to keep at least a modicum of positivity still flowing through my veins, here.

 

[bkingUK]

You guys might want to pump the brakes on this next class coming in. I don’t see a super class, not even close. It’s being overrated badly. This is about to get worse.

Cool story Bk.

Think the only concern with next season’s roster is front court depth, but I’m not sure there’s a recruiting analyst alive who’d say it’s overrated. It’d be the number 1 class as is if Sharpe didn’t reclassify (and will likely play for team next season, so doesnt make a difference).

 

[Gromcat]

Think the only concern with next season’s roster is front court depth, but I’m not sure there’s a recruiting analyst alive who’d say it’s overrated. It’d be the number 1 class as is if Sharpe didn’t reclassify (and will likely play for that team next season).

We don’t know what Sharpe is going to do. Without him next season it’s not that great of a class. Also, I don’t see a Banchero in the guy. He’d be around 4-10 in a loaded class. I just don’t see a bunch of alpha dogs in any of those guys, just a decent class for Calipari. It’s not a savior class.

Man I hate this. People are going to be so let down when that class doesn’t create a title chance. And they won’t as far as I can see.

 

[STL_Cat]

We don’t know what Sharpe is going to do. Without him next season it’s not that great of a class. Also, I don’t see a Banchero in the guy. He’d be around 4-10 in a loaded class. I just don’t see a bunch of alpha dogs in any of those guys, just a decent class for Calipari. It’s not a savior class.

Man I hate this. People are going to be so let down when that class doesn’t create a title chance. And they won’t as far as I can see.

I'm not sure it really matters for some. As long as people keep seeing that "#1 recruiting class" beside our name they're going to keep expecting next year to be the year.

 

[Gromcat]

Trying to keep at least a modicum of positivity still flowing through my veins, here.

Well I’m with you then. I don’t see that class as a juggernaut but I want to so bring on Kobe Sharpe. We’re gonna need him and if my scouting is off then great. But I am expecting a big time playmaker, a guy who doesn’t go through the usual learning curve, and I don’t want to hear Calipari talk about their youth once. Win or it’s over. That’s where I am personally.

 

[UK90]

Tubby had some very good teams, but really trailed off in the last few years. Pretty similar to what is going on right now. Let’s hope Cal has the integrity that Tubby had and knows when to cut bait.

More like just the last two years. The tales of Tubby’s trail off tend to get exaggerated. Our teams from 03 to 05 were outstanding, and very well coached, but just happened to meet misfortune in the tournament. It was really just the last two years that there was truly a notable decline in the program (and even those weren’t remotely near as bad as Cal’s two worst seasons).

My only issue with Tubby was recruiting. The talent he was bringing in at the end was unacceptably mediocre for a blueblood program of UK’s stature. But I thought his teams always looked well coached.

 

[saxonburgcat]

More like just the last two years. The tales of Tubby’s trail off tend to get exaggerated. Our teams from 03 to 05 were outstanding, and extremely well coached, but just happened to meet misfortune in the tournament. It was really just the last two years that there was truly a notable decline in the program (and even those weren’t remotely near as bad as Cal’s two worst seasons).

My only issue with Tubby was recruiting. The talent he was bringing in at the end was unacceptably mediocre for a blueblood program of UK’s stature. But I thought his teams always looked well coached.

Totally disagree. Tubby never liked recruiting and that was documented in an article (that I can no longer find) in the early 2000's. Tubby's idea of recruiting was to show up in a UK sweatshirt. But, UK was the hot destination back then and a lot of players, like Jodie Meeks, basically recruited themselves. If you look at the individual stories of various players you will find that many of them wanted to play for UK in spite of the fact that Tubby didn't do much recruiting.

I remember numerous stories of kids like Marshall Moses who was treated horribly in the recruiting process, the Stewart kid from Florida who found out that UK was recruiting him from MJ, the Rush kid who even said that he didn't think Tubby cared one way or the other, and on and on. And, Patrick Patterson's parents even commented that UK didn't really recruit their son that heavily until Billy G was hired.

 

[bkingUK]

We don’t know what Sharpe is going to do. Without him next season it’s not that great of a class. Also, I don’t see a Banchero in the guy. He’d be around 4-10 in a loaded class. I just don’t see a bunch of alpha dogs in any of those guys, just a decent class for Calipari. It’s not a savior class.

Man I hate this. People are going to be so let down when that class doesn’t create a title chance. And they won’t as far as I can see.

Yea but you’re just choosing cynicism at that point

 

[MegaBlue05]

More like just the last two years. The tales of Tubby’s trail off tend to get exaggerated. Our teams from 03 to 05 were outstanding, and extremely well coached, but just happened to meet misfortune in the tournament. It was really just the last two years that there was truly a notable decline in the program (and even those weren’t remotely near as bad as Cal’s two worst seasons).

My only issue with Tubby was recruiting. The talent he was bringing in at the end was unacceptably mediocre for a blueblood program of UK’s stature. But I thought his teams always looked well coached.

It should be noted Tubby had two trail offs. 2000, 2001 and 2002 were anywhere from below average (2000) to underwhelming because of internal strife (2002)

 

[bkingUK]

It should be noted Tubby had two trail offs. 2000, 2001 and 2002 were anywhere from below average (2000) to underwhelming because of internal strife (2002)

That era did happen. Should’ve mentioned it. Definitely led to higher skepticism later. In 2003, Tubby was pursued by UCLA in the midst of the undefeated SEC run. Pundits jumped on board at places like ESPN advocating it as a good move. In response, Barnhart gave a strong extension. Hope at that point was that the discontent was over.

 

[TankedCat]

Tubby believed that he could turn a 3 star guy into a 5 star guy. In some cases, I think he did. But it seemed that started to be the go to move versus bringing in a star player.

My favorite team of Tubby's is Hawkins, Fitch and Daniels. Those 3 guys were a well oiled machine. I think Chuck Hayes was in the mix later. We got to see them grow as players and we got to see them beat North Carolina.

unfortunately they never got over the hump.

I do remember Tubby saying he wasn't going to be the guy to get Kentucky on probation - FWIW in recruiting.

ALot of things to respect about Tubby - he was a good guy. But he wasn't going to build on Pitino and it was death by a thousand paper cuts for the fans. They wanted a full court press, 3 point bombing , run-n-gun and they got Saul dribbling for 10 seconds at the top of key.

 

[katwest]

Cal deserves all the criticism he gets, no Kentucky coach will escape that, especially the last several years, it comes with the territory. As for style of play you can win with Tubby's way and Cals way only Tubby did it with lower rated players than what Cal has had which means coaching had a lot to do with winning the games he won. To me it doesn't matter what style off play we have it's winning that matters. Tubby and Joe Hall were heavily criticized for their style of play and both won, neither liked the press much and both were treated less than cordial by it.

 

[TopCatCal]

Gather round kids and rookies not around in from 2006-2008. Let me educate you on Kentucky basketball internet history. Comparisons are being made to this era. There are some similarities. There are also some differences. I’ll let you decide.

Let me take you to a different time. An era AOL message boards and chat rooms were being replaced by Facebooks and MySpaces. A time when CatsPause was Rivals, where KentuckySportsRadio advertising was dependent on Matt Jones posting on message boards and a time when there was a battle for the soul of Kentucky basketball.

Tubby Smith, as well all know, won a national championship in 1998. His style of play, however, immediately drew backlash to fans of Pitino’s run and gun style. Immediately, memes of “Tubby can only win with Pitino’s players” were murmured.

But at end of ‘05, Kentucky was coming off three pretty good seasons, depending on your point of view.

In 2003, Kentucky went full beast mode, dominating #1 Florida and coasting through the SEC undefeated. We lost, however, in elite 8, following a Keith Bogans high ankle sprain.

While very good in ‘04, a 2nd round upset to UAB and some guy named Squeaky Johnson sowed discontent. The morale began to turn.

In ‘05, Kentucky lost to Michigan State in double OT in the elite 8, further extending a 7 year Final Four drought.

Even worse, recruiting had stalled to the level of Moorehead State. The incoming class was 4 star Jared Carter (who might have started 1 game in 4 years), JUCO Rekalin Sims (who Im pretty sure served jail time) and Adam Williams (who might’ve never gotten in a game). UNC was peaking. Pitino at Louisville was making waves. Kentucky was in jeopardy.

The fanbase became reckless and polarized. On one hand, we were coming off three seasons where Kentucky was either #1 or #2 at some point (or in elite 8 with likes of Rajon Rondo in 2005). On the other hand, there was reason to question if they could ever turn the corner again. There was also hope a couple pieces added would help do it.

Further complicating this, in the infancy of Kentucky basketball internet, we saw something we’ve never seen before. Groups arose, committed to the idea that Tubby Smith must be ran off or fired, and went to extreme lengths to see it happen. Losing was a good thing. Any assemblance of a victory had to be downplayed. Websites were made. Email campaigns to Mitch Barnhart commenced. War was declared.

Recruiting took a further hit. Guys like Brandan Wright went elsewhere. Kentucky lost one recruit to a prep school. Tubby Smith, already known for being stronger defensive coach than anything, took criticism for his slow offensive style. This, on top of perception of unrest in fanbase, compounded recruiting issues.

The following year, we landed a class consisting of Jodie Meeks (4 star), Derrick Jasper (4 star 6’5 PG), Perry Stevenson (borderline 3/4 star), Ramon Harris (3 star) and Michael Porter (2 star and did a crime that we shouldn’t mention). After losing Rondo to NBA, our PG play was dependent on Jasper, who underwhelmed and transferred to UNLV.

After that season, we had two players who were thought could make or break Tubby’s tenure: Jai Lucas and Patrick Patterson. They were thought to be a package deal. We needed a PG. We needed a big. Lucas want to Florida. PPat to UK. And ironically, we did end up getting both over the span of 13 years.

But I digress. Eventually the pressure overcame Tubby Smith. Questions nagged for 10 years, but the pressure really amped up for 3.

This, of course, led to Billy Gillispie, who brought his own brand of shit show.

But there have been comparisons made to this time and that time. Yes. There are similarities. There are also differences.

One way it's not like it was with Tubby. Is when Tubby realized that the UK fans no longer wanted him. Rather than force his self on the BBN. Tubby being the decent human that he is, he walked away. John Calipari being the person that he is doesn't give a crap about the UK fans & we're stuck with this thing for God knows how long.

 

[yoshukai]

Gather round kids and rookies not around in from 2006-2008. Let me educate you on Kentucky basketball internet history. Comparisons are being made to this era. There are some similarities. There are also some differences. I’ll let you decide.

Let me take you to a different time. An era AOL message boards and chat rooms were being replaced by Facebooks and MySpaces. A time when CatsPause was Rivals, where KentuckySportsRadio advertising was dependent on Matt Jones posting on message boards and a time when there was a battle for the soul of Kentucky basketball.

Tubby Smith, as well all know, won a national championship in 1998. His style of play, however, immediately drew backlash to fans of Pitino’s run and gun style. Immediately, memes of “Tubby can only win with Pitino’s players” were murmured.

But at end of ‘05, Kentucky was coming off three pretty good seasons, depending on your point of view.

In 2003, Kentucky went full beast mode, dominating #1 Florida and coasting through the SEC undefeated. We lost, however, in elite 8, following a Keith Bogans high ankle sprain.

While very good in ‘04, a 2nd round upset to UAB and some guy named Squeaky Johnson sowed discontent. The morale began to turn.

In ‘05, Kentucky lost to Michigan State in double OT in the elite 8, further extending a 7 year Final Four drought.

Even worse, recruiting had stalled to the level of Moorehead State. The incoming class was 4 star Jared Carter (who might have started 1 game in 4 years), JUCO Rekalin Sims (who Im pretty sure served jail time) and Adam Williams (who might’ve never gotten in a game). UNC was peaking. Pitino at Louisville was making waves. Kentucky was in jeopardy.

The fanbase became reckless and polarized. On one hand, we were coming off three seasons where Kentucky was either #1 or #2 at some point (or in elite 8 with likes of Rajon Rondo in 2005). On the other hand, there was reason to question if they could ever turn the corner again. There was also hope a couple pieces added would help do it.

Further complicating this, in the infancy of Kentucky basketball internet, we saw something we’ve never seen before. Groups arose, committed to the idea that Tubby Smith must be ran off or fired, and went to extreme lengths to see it happen. Losing was a good thing. Any assemblance of a victory had to be downplayed. Websites were made. Email campaigns to Mitch Barnhart commenced. War was declared.

Recruiting took a further hit. Guys like Brandan Wright went elsewhere. Kentucky lost one recruit to a prep school. Tubby Smith, already known for being stronger defensive coach than anything, took criticism for his slow offensive style. This, on top of perception of unrest in fanbase, compounded recruiting issues.

The following year, we landed a class consisting of Jodie Meeks (4 star), Derrick Jasper (4 star 6’5 PG), Perry Stevenson (borderline 3/4 star), Ramon Harris (3 star) and Michael Porter (2 star and did a crime that we shouldn’t mention). After losing Rondo to NBA, our PG play was dependent on Jasper, who underwhelmed and transferred to UNLV.

After that season, we had two players who were thought could make or break Tubby’s tenure: Jai Lucas and Patrick Patterson. They were thought to be a package deal. We needed a PG. We needed a big. Lucas want to Florida. PPat to UK. And ironically, we did end up getting both over the span of 13 years.

But I digress. Eventually the pressure overcame Tubby Smith. Questions nagged for 10 years, but the pressure really amped up for 3.

This, of course, led to Billy Gillispie, who brought his own brand of shit show.

But there have been comparisons made to this time and that time. Yes. There are similarities. There are also differences.

I dont know if you did this from memory. But if you did you have a pretty good one .

 

[CB3UK]

Still waiting for the actual similarities and differences. They're coming any day Im sure.

 

[ruppcat]

Gather round kids and rookies not around in from 2006-2008. Let me educate you on Kentucky basketball internet history. Comparisons are being made to this era. There are some similarities. There are also some differences. I’ll let you decide.

Let me take you to a different time. An era AOL message boards and chat rooms were being replaced by Facebooks and MySpaces. A time when CatsPause was Rivals, where KentuckySportsRadio advertising was dependent on Matt Jones posting on message boards and a time when there was a battle for the soul of Kentucky basketball.

Tubby Smith, as well all know, won a national championship in 1998. His style of play, however, immediately drew backlash to fans of Pitino’s run and gun style. Immediately, memes of “Tubby can only win with Pitino’s players” were murmured.

But at end of ‘05, Kentucky was coming off three pretty good seasons, depending on your point of view.

In 2003, Kentucky went full beast mode, dominating #1 Florida and coasting through the SEC undefeated. We lost, however, in elite 8, following a Keith Bogans high ankle sprain.

While very good in ‘04, a 2nd round upset to UAB and some guy named Squeaky Johnson sowed discontent. The morale began to turn.

In ‘05, Kentucky lost to Michigan State in double OT in the elite 8, further extending a 7 year Final Four drought.

Even worse, recruiting had stalled to the level of Moorehead State. The incoming class was 4 star Jared Carter (who might have started 1 game in 4 years), JUCO Rekalin Sims (who Im pretty sure served jail time) and Adam Williams (who might’ve never gotten in a game). UNC was peaking. Pitino at Louisville was making waves. Kentucky was in jeopardy.

The fanbase became reckless and polarized. On one hand, we were coming off three seasons where Kentucky was either #1 or #2 at some point (or in elite 8 with likes of Rajon Rondo in 2005). On the other hand, there was reason to question if they could ever turn the corner again. There was also hope a couple pieces added would help do it.

Further complicating this, in the infancy of Kentucky basketball internet, we saw something we’ve never seen before. Groups arose, committed to the idea that Tubby Smith must be ran off or fired, and went to extreme lengths to see it happen. Losing was a good thing. Any assemblance of a victory had to be downplayed. Websites were made. Email campaigns to Mitch Barnhart commenced. War was declared.

Recruiting took a further hit. Guys like Brandan Wright went elsewhere. Kentucky lost one recruit to a prep school. Tubby Smith, already known for being stronger defensive coach than anything, took criticism for his slow offensive style. This, on top of perception of unrest in fanbase, compounded recruiting issues.

The following year, we landed a class consisting of Jodie Meeks (4 star), Derrick Jasper (4 star 6’5 PG), Perry Stevenson (borderline 3/4 star), Ramon Harris (3 star) and Michael Porter (2 star and did a crime that we shouldn’t mention). After losing Rondo to NBA, our PG play was dependent on Jasper, who underwhelmed and transferred to UNLV.

After that season, we had two players who were thought could make or break Tubby’s tenure: Jai Lucas and Patrick Patterson. They were thought to be a package deal. We needed a PG. We needed a big. Lucas want to Florida. PPat to UK. And ironically, we did end up getting both over the span of 13 years.

But I digress. Eventually the pressure overcame Tubby Smith. Questions nagged for 10 years, but the pressure really amped up for 3.

This, of course, led to Billy Gillispie, who brought his own brand of shit show.

But there have been comparisons made to this time and that time. Yes. There are similarities. There are also differences.

n 2003, Kentucky went full beast mode, dominating #1 Florida and coasting through the SEC undefeated. We lost, however, in elite 8, following a Keith Bogans high ankle sprain.
*****

We did not lose due to the much overhyped ankle sprain.

We lost because Wade had a career night; but more importantly two other players had career nights. That's why UK lost. Not because of the damn ankle.

 

[ruppcat]

Gather round kids and rookies not around in from 2006-2008. Let me educate you on Kentucky basketball internet history. Comparisons are being made to this era. There are some similarities. There are also some differences. I’ll let you decide.

Let me take you to a different time. An era AOL message boards and chat rooms were being replaced by Facebooks and MySpaces. A time when CatsPause was Rivals, where KentuckySportsRadio advertising was dependent on Matt Jones posting on message boards and a time when there was a battle for the soul of Kentucky basketball.

Tubby Smith, as well all know, won a national championship in 1998. His style of play, however, immediately drew backlash to fans of Pitino’s run and gun style. Immediately, memes of “Tubby can only win with Pitino’s players” were murmured.

But at end of ‘05, Kentucky was coming off three pretty good seasons, depending on your point of view.

In 2003, Kentucky went full beast mode, dominating #1 Florida and coasting through the SEC undefeated. We lost, however, in elite 8, following a Keith Bogans high ankle sprain.

While very good in ‘04, a 2nd round upset to UAB and some guy named Squeaky Johnson sowed discontent. The morale began to turn.

In ‘05, Kentucky lost to Michigan State in double OT in the elite 8, further extending a 7 year Final Four drought.

Even worse, recruiting had stalled to the level of Moorehead State. The incoming class was 4 star Jared Carter (who might have started 1 game in 4 years), JUCO Rekalin Sims (who Im pretty sure served jail time) and Adam Williams (who might’ve never gotten in a game). UNC was peaking. Pitino at Louisville was making waves. Kentucky was in jeopardy.

The fanbase became reckless and polarized. On one hand, we were coming off three seasons where Kentucky was either #1 or #2 at some point (or in elite 8 with likes of Rajon Rondo in 2005). On the other hand, there was reason to question if they could ever turn the corner again. There was also hope a couple pieces added would help do it.

Further complicating this, in the infancy of Kentucky basketball internet, we saw something we’ve never seen before. Groups arose, committed to the idea that Tubby Smith must be ran off or fired, and went to extreme lengths to see it happen. Losing was a good thing. Any assemblance of a victory had to be downplayed. Websites were made. Email campaigns to Mitch Barnhart commenced. War was declared.

Recruiting took a further hit. Guys like Brandan Wright went elsewhere. Kentucky lost one recruit to a prep school. Tubby Smith, already known for being stronger defensive coach than anything, took criticism for his slow offensive style. This, on top of perception of unrest in fanbase, compounded recruiting issues.

The following year, we landed a class consisting of Jodie Meeks (4 star), Derrick Jasper (4 star 6’5 PG), Perry Stevenson (borderline 3/4 star), Ramon Harris (3 star) and Michael Porter (2 star and did a crime that we shouldn’t mention). After losing Rondo to NBA, our PG play was dependent on Jasper, who underwhelmed and transferred to UNLV.

After that season, we had two players who were thought could make or break Tubby’s tenure: Jai Lucas and Patrick Patterson. They were thought to be a package deal. We needed a PG. We needed a big. Lucas want to Florida. PPat to UK. And ironically, we did end up getting both over the span of 13 years.

But I digress. Eventually the pressure overcame Tubby Smith. Questions nagged for 10 years, but the pressure really amped up for 3.

This, of course, led to Billy Gillispie, who brought his own brand of shit show.

But there have been comparisons made to this time and that time. Yes. There are similarities. There are also differences.

I'd add that the 10 loss seasons of 99 and 11 and 2002 began to call into question Tubby's program.

Losing key recruits to pUKe, and losing to pUKe, also called things into question.

 

[Seth_C]

I didn’t agree that Tubby was lazy and I don’t think Calipari is. Tubby certainly had the capital to bring in recruiters or delegate such tasks. I think part of his problem was his dedication to program guys to the nth degree. Where Calipari wouldn’t think twice to recruit a 5 star, even if there were other players in place, Tubby was much more conservative when we already had talent at a position. He also wanted 4 year guys he could mold, almost to a fault.

I do agree this year could make or break. The exception to that is though, Shaedeon Sharpe and a stud recruiting class. That’s something Tubby or Gillispie couldn’t hang their hats on. We know Calipari can win with talent. He’s proved it at three schools. We’ve also not had that caliber of talent consistently since 2015

Lazy might not be the right word for either of them but the correct words still have a touch of the same meaning. Comfortable for one and complacent for the other would be accurate I think.

 

[gojvc]

As I said before this year and am still saying now, a lot of how I feel about the Cal Era hinges on this year. You can't follow up a 9-16 season at Kentucky with another bad season, especially in the middle of now what is a 6 and will be a 7 year Final Four drought if it doesn't happen this year. This is potentially worse than NY two year stretch we ever had under Tubby. Again, hinges on this year. So far, not great. A lot of basketball to be played though.

While I think this team can be pretty good, I still see this as a bridge year until we get Cal/Antigua recruiting express rolling again. Next year we’re bringing in the #1 class AND we should have experienced returnees from this year’s team. That’s the formula that we never really have had in combination. I get the frustration. I’m there too. But, given how high Cal’s ceiling is, wouldn’t you want to give him a chance to coach that team and see if he can get this rolling again before you completely write him off?

 

[bkingUK]

n 2003, Kentucky went full beast mode, dominating #1 Florida and coasting through the SEC undefeated. We lost, however, in elite 8, following a Keith Bogans high ankle sprain.
*****

We did not lose due to the much overhyped ankle sprain.

We lost because Wade had a career night; but more importantly two other players had career nights. That's why UK lost. Not because of the damn ankle.

Bogans hobbled around all game. Wade was good and they might have won regardless, but Kentucky was definitely not 100%

 

[bkingUK]

While I think this team can be pretty good, I still see this as a bridge year until we get Cal/Antigua recruiting express rolling again. Next year we’re bringing in the #1 class AND we should have experienced returnees from this year’s team. That’s the formula that we never really have had in combination. I get the frustration. I’m there too. But, given how high Cal’s ceiling is, wouldn’t you want to give him a chance to coach that team and see if he can get this rolling again before you completely write him off?

I think that’s probably accurate. You don’t just escape a season as bad as last year and become good over night. Having said that, fans are impatient and illogical. If we lose in 1st round or don’t make tournament, it’s going to get ugly.

The counter to that is that Calipari built the program and is ultimately responsible. That’s true. Also doesn’t mean he can’t fix it. That’s where we are today, basically.

 

[ruppcat]

Bogans hobbled around all game. Wade was good and they might have won regardless, but Kentucky was definitely not 100%

wouldn't have mattered.

bogan's got his season average.

it was the other two kids for marquette who killed UK that night.

UK still loses even if Wade got his average.

 

[bkingUK]

wouldn't have mattered.

bogan's got his season average.

it was the other two kids for marquette who killed UK that night.

UK still loses even if Wade got his average.

Agree to disagree. Will never agree. Definitely changed how Uk played

 

[ruppcat]

Agree to disagree. Will never agree. Definitely changed how Uk played

There's nothing to agree to disagree over.

Marquette was hot as fire that night.

I saw the same game you did.

Even with Wade going off, it was a pair of background players that really killed UK. Robert Jackson, the Mississippi State transfer, totally outplayed Marquis Estill, scoring 24 points and hauling in 15 rebounds, while 6-foot-10 freshman forward Steve Novak drilled 5-of-8 from beyond the arc to score 16 points. Jackson, who was told Estill said he didn't remember him, had the last laugh between the two.

Kentucky vs. Marquette (March 29, 2003)