Harry Giles to Alter UNC Visit Date; Coach Says He Remains Open in Recruitment
- Thread starter preacher_tom
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George Pickett had better odds of leading his men to victory at Gettysburg than Giles does of ending up anywhere but Duke.
Maybe Giles needs to look at Cal's track record with big men vs. K's and see where he needs to go.
Cal coached big men in the NBA are DeMarcus Cousins, Patrick Patterson, Enes Kanter (he may not have played at UK, but he certainly learned from Cal and Coach Payne in practice), Anthony Davis, Terrence Jones, Nerlens Noel, Willie Cauley-Stein, Julius Randle, Karl Towns, and Trey Lyles.
K coached big men in the NBA are Luol Deng, The Plumlees (Miles and Mason I think), Jabari Parker, and Jahlil Okafor as far as I can tell.
Cal has a MUCH better track record for getting big guys prepared for the NBA than K does and he's going to add to that list with Skal, and possibly Poy, Lee, and maybe Humphries at some point too.
Cal coached big men in the NBA are DeMarcus Cousins, Patrick Patterson, Enes Kanter (he may not have played at UK, but he certainly learned from Cal and Coach Payne in practice), Anthony Davis, Terrence Jones, Nerlens Noel, Willie Cauley-Stein, Julius Randle, Karl Towns, and Trey Lyles.
K coached big men in the NBA are Luol Deng, The Plumlees (Miles and Mason I think), Jabari Parker, and Jahlil Okafor as far as I can tell.
Cal has a MUCH better track record for getting big guys prepared for the NBA than K does and he's going to add to that list with Skal, and possibly Poy, Lee, and maybe Humphries at some point too.
After the Tatum commit, it was almost a certainty hes going to Duke. UK is the only other realistic possibility, albeit a slight possibility.
It cant be overstated how much of an advantage K has through USA basketball.
It cant be overstated how much of an advantage K has through USA basketball.
Uhmmm... not for nothing, but you left out NBA All-Star Carlos Boozer, NBA All-Star Elton Brand, NBA All-Star Christian Laettner, and a few others in that Duke list.
A player like Giles will be in the league whether he goes to Duke or UK. It just comes down to which coach he feels most comfortable with, which program he feels more comfortable at, and where he thinks he can get that extra bit of learning that might help him on his journey. Over K's tenure at Duke, there hasn't really been anyone who has done it noticeably better.
And a George Pickett reference? There's something you don't see often!
A player like Giles will be in the league whether he goes to Duke or UK. It just comes down to which coach he feels most comfortable with, which program he feels more comfortable at, and where he thinks he can get that extra bit of learning that might help him on his journey. Over K's tenure at Duke, there hasn't really been anyone who has done it noticeably better.
And a George Pickett reference? There's something you don't see often!
I love this. "Oh hes so good, it really doesnt matter where he goes. He'll end up in the league." Because what else are rival fans going to say? Thats basically the only argument they have. Too bad its just not true.
Will they make it to the league? Absolutely. I guess thats good enough, if just getting there is all they want. Look at the money Cals players make. They make it for a reason. They dont just get to the league, they excel.
Noone develops elite talent like Cal. Noone. Look at the development arc of KAT vs Okafor. It isnt even close. Okafor was the same player all season long. KAT developed by leaps and bounds.
So yes, KAT and Okafor are both in the league; and wouldve been no matter where they went. But KAT was elevated to #1 overall, and had endorsement deals before the draft even took place. Thats the Kentucky effect. And noone else has it.
Eh, agree to disagree that no one develops elite talent like Cal and that Kentucky has some effect no one else has. Yes, Cal recruits great talent, and has had far more chances to offer LOTS of available playing time to LOTS of players since his first year at UK had much playing time. But for every guy who made it into the draft unexpectedly (Booker, for example) there are others who DIDN'T develop like they may have... look at guys like the twins, who might be the only example in history of both the 5th and 6th overall RSCI ranked guys both going to one school and then both coming back for their sophomore years. Poy was ranked 8th overall in RSCI, and is coming back for another season... his third? Fourth? Listen, Cal gets GREAT talent, and certainly is a fantastic developer of talent... but he isn't the only one who can do it. That's just silly.
KAT having endorsement deals...? Eh. Did you maybe miss the national commercials Jabari and Jahlil had before they even played a game in the league, commercials that featured them wearing Duke uniforms? Duke players are among the most highly sought after players in the nation for endorsement deals.
Comparing KAT and Okafor is a bit silly. Okafor was the traditional 5 centerpiece of the national title winner, a guy who played a TON of minutes, and a player who faced double and triple teams every time he touched the ball. KAT played what... 20 minutes a game? He didn't face much in the way of doubles or triples, and acting like he was some guy who needed huge development is a little ignorant of how talented KAT is, and what sort of hype he came in with. You think Cal took on a national team job to land just a random player? Prepstars had him as the 2nd overall player in the country, as did 247. And given that the NBA has largely moved away from more traditional 5s and towards the more skilled, inside-outside 5s, this wasn't some shocking thing. I certainly think it was a lot more of a reflection of the skills of the two players and what the League is looking for than a reflection of some horrible job by K and some masterful job by Cal.
Listen, you are a Kentucky fan. I get it. You think Kentucky is the center of the basketball world, and everyone else is below you. But us Duke fans are pretty sure that we are at the top of the college basketball landscape... we have the most famous coach in the country, title after title, players from Hill, Laettner, and Hurley through JWill, Brand, and Battier and up to Okafor, Jones and Winslow... we have the best arena in the country, the most beautiful campus, a top flight school... our coach has led the nation to gold medal after gold medal and has revitalized our national program, earning the praise of his players like Lebron and Kobe along the way. So yes, you guys can be very proud of what you have at Kentucky. But please be reasonable and understand that it isn't as clear cut as you might like to think.
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Not trying to get into a pissing match but I swear if I read this post with the players name's blotted out I would swear it was from Inside Carolina circa mid 2000's. Whatever "magic elixir" Cal gave to KAT why didn't he save some for the Harrison twins? two 5 star prospects/ top 10 recruits who I'm sure didn't enjoy draft night as one went undrafted and the other was 44th. (Pat Connaughton at Notre Dame was even drafted ahead of both players for some perspective.) So what's your takeaway on that bigblueinsanity?
I can respect, albeit disagree with, most of what you said until the "there's nothing like the Duke effect". Duke and Kentucky are at the top right now, but there's no magical aura surrounding Duke that makes them head and shoulders above anyone, especially Kentucky.
As far as Towns and Okafor, they are different players for sure. But before the season, Towns was only considered a top 5-10 pick. He was very raw, had almost zero post moves and looked confused a lot because he was basically a forward until then. That's what Cal kinda makes his specialty; seeing what a guy needs to work on, even if it's out of his comfort zone, and pushing them there. By the end of the season, Towns had developed a beautiful hook and a couple other post moves to add to his versatility and shooting. And yeah he faced quite a few double teams as the season went on. But the bottom line is Cal used him in a way that showed how quickly he was improving and that's why he went #1. Now I'm not saying K did a BAD job with Okafor. I mean, he won a title with him. But as far as his development, he just didn't change much and ended up slipping.
Whether any of this will sway Giles, frankly I kinda doubt. I give about a 90% chance you guys get him. But it's the one thing that gives me a glimmer of hope because I'm sure Cal is using his development of Towns as his selling point.
There are exceptions to every rule. The Harrison's, frankly, were rated too high coming out of high school. They had great size for their position and decent athleticism and basketball skills but nothing special at any one thing. Their game translated to the college game more so than the NBA and scouts can see that.
I know perfectly well that Cal isn't a magician. He can't raise the draft stock of every kid who comes through. But it's a crapshoot. Nobody wants to be the next Shabazz Muhammad or BJ Mullens and Cal is developing as good a track record as possible at helping kids get better, especially with big guys. #1 picks aside, NOBODY expected Josh Harrelson to ever get drafted.
also Carlos Boozer, Josh McRoberts, Ryan Kelly, Shavlik Randolph, Kyle Singler, and Lance Thomas
![[sick]](http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/img/emoticons/sick/sick0006.r191677.gif "Sick [sick]")
I'll say one thing, and that is I do feel that Cal would have had Winslow drafted higher! I say that because I felt Winslow was the best player on Dukes team this year...a lot like a MKG but with a better jumper. MKG went 2nd that year behind a college player who won every award in the country and possible mvp of the NBA this coming year. I actually think Winslow is a better player than MKG, but I don't think K "sells" his players as well as Cal.
with all due respect, TUL - yes, we'll have to agree to disagree
I do have to respond to a couple of your points:
You mention Booker not being expected in the draft. That is entirely not true. At the beginning of the 2014-2015 season, he was expected to go second round, but ended up being a lottery pick. And this was on a team forced to use a platoon system due to the amount of talent present. He played roughly half to 2/3 the minutes he would've played on any other team, yet went lottery.
With the twins - it seems to be common consensus they were overranked coming out of college. And yes, we did have those two who didn't live up to their original expectations so I do concede that.
Alex Poythress originally came back for reasons other than the NBA - he's a brilliant student who has graduated in just three years. If I'm not mistaken, he has a degree in business? Not exactly a gimme degree. Poy would have declared for the draft, this year, had he not been injured early in the season. And, I believe, he'd have been high first round if not lottery.
I won't get into the KAT/Okafor argument - I have my opinions, but they are just that, opinions.
I don't think anyone can argue that K develops players. But until recently he had several years to do so. It was only the last few that he really embraced the one and done model. And even so, you can look at how and where they were drafted. I'm going to use the last 5 years only because, as we agree, we need to compare the two coaches at their elite schools:
Since 2010, Krzyzewski has had 13 players drafted:
2 second round
11 first round
5 lottery
1 first overall pick
Since 2010 Calipari has had 25 players drafted:
6 second round
19 first round
12 lottery
3 first overall
as an added bonus - history making 1st and 2nd picks in 2012
Now I can't speak for Duke, but I can say of those players, 5 Kentucky players were not expected to be drafted at all. Of that group, 14 currently are still on rosters making major contributions (as either starters or important bench players). AND, that 14 does not include this year's draft (which had 6 selected).
Also, as of today UK has the #1 class (well except for ESPN but they don't rate foreign players) coming in, AFTER Duke won the NC.
Take this as you will; after all, I'm just a Kentucky fan
Duke fans coming over and not only doing their best to stick up for k's development of big men, but using shavlik Randolph, lance Thomas and josh mcroberts to make their point.
This is priceless stuff.
You 40 year old Virgins need to go back to your own board.
This is priceless stuff.
You 40 year old Virgins need to go back to your own board.
@Neue Regel is a helluva poster. Sometimes our own fans make dumb statements and deserve to be called out.
IMO...Giles may still end up going to Duke (and I think he still will go to Duke) but I think going to Oak HIll has definitely given him a breath of fresh air when it comes to his recruitment. Since he is no longer in NC he doesn't have to hear as much of the "Go to Duke" or "Go to Wake Forest" as he has heard all throughout high school.
with all due respect, TUL - yes, we'll have to agree to disagree
I do have to respond to a couple of your points:
You mention Booker not being expected in the draft. That is entirely not true. At the beginning of the 2014-2015 season, he was expected to go second round, but ended up being a lottery pick. And this was on a team forced to use a platoon system due to the amount of talent present. He played roughly half to 2/3 the minutes he would've played on any other team, yet went lottery.
With the twins - it seems to be common consensus they were overranked coming out of college. And yes, we did have those two who didn't live up to their original expectations so I do concede that.
Alex Poythress originally came back for reasons other than the NBA - he's a brilliant student who has graduated in just three years. If I'm not mistaken, he has a degree in business? Not exactly a gimme degree. Poy would have declared for the draft, this year, had he not been injured early in the season. And, I believe, he'd have been high first round if not lottery.
I won't get into the KAT/Okafor argument - I have my opinions, but they are just that, opinions.
I don't think anyone can argue that K develops players. But until recently he had several years to do so. It was only the last few that he really embraced the one and done model. And even so, you can look at how and where they were drafted. I'm going to use the last 5 years only because, as we agree, we need to compare the two coaches at their elite schools:
Since 2010, Krzyzewski has had 13 players drafted:
2 second round
11 first round
5 lottery
1 first overall pick
Since 2010 Calipari has had 25 players drafted:
6 second round
19 first round
12 lottery
3 first overall
as an added bonus - history making 1st and 2nd picks in 2012
Now I can't speak for Duke, but I can say of those players, 5 Kentucky players were not expected to be drafted at all. Of that group, 14 currently are still on rosters making major contributions (as either starters or important bench players). AND, that 14 does not include this year's draft (which had 6 selected).
Also, as of today UK has the #1 class (well except for ESPN but they don't rate foreign players) coming in, AFTER Duke won the NC.
Take this as you will; after all, I'm just a Kentucky fan
Absolutely, nobody is saying Cal doesn't do a GREAT job, one of the absolute best in the nation.
But when looking at those numbers of guys going to the league, I'd like to see...
A) how big each recruiting class is
and
B) what sorts of ratings the guys coming in have had.
My guess is that Cal has had A) more overall players come through the program in the last five years who were B) top ten type talents. That would have an obvious impact on the numbers you posted.
Plus, what about the top ten type talents who WEREN'T drafted when they were maybe expected to be drafted? How does that factor in?
Out of curiousity, who were the five who weren't expected to be drafted?
As every Duke fan has said, Cal has recruited phenomenal talent, and has done really great things with that talent.
But most of us don't think that Kentucky and Cal have some special ability that no other program and coach, including Duke and K, can replicate.
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Based on . . . the fact that MKG went #2? How exactly does Calipari tell a NBA GM what to do and who to take? Quite curious.
I do agree, however, that Winslow should have gotten drafted higher, at least top-5.
![[laughing]](http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/img/emoticons/classic/laugh.r191677.gif "Laughing [laughing]")
These are espn rankings:
2009: Duke 2 top 100 and 1 top 10, UK 4 top 100 and 2 top 10
2010: Duke 2 top 100 and 1 top 10, UK 3 top 100 and 2 top 10
2011: Duke 5 top 100 and 1 top 10, UK 4 top 100 and 3 top 10
2012 Duke 2 top 100 and 0 top 10, UK 4 top 100 and 1 top 10
2013: Duke 3 top 100 and 1 top 10, UK 6 top 100 and 5 top 10
2014: Duke 4 top 100 and 2 top 10, UK 4 top 100 and 2 top 10
So just comparing top 10 players Duke-6 and UK-17. I just put the numbers together to have here for the debate.
Now I will say here are the top 10 flops for each school:
Duke-Plumlee, Rivers
UK-Teague It is really too early to call on Twins, Dakari, and James Young (I could see 3 of those 4 being busts in the league
Teams are still going to draft though based on their needs. If you're a GM for an NBA team and you desperately need a big man then that's what you're going after. Winslow didn't enter school being thought of as a top 5 pick, he played his way into high consideration and deservedly so. I doubt he's disappointed going 10th.
Bedsides Boozer everyone of them suck.
I'd like to suck like that and make their paycheck. I'd be a very happy man.
Easy, Calipari pumped MKG's stock all year. Talking about how he will be a defensive stopper, etc. He didn't lie, but he really markets his kids so that they do get drafted in the best possible spot. Hell he is probably on the phone with them. Just like this year he was saying how Karl should be the number 1 pick and had been saying it all year. Cal would have "sold" Winslow better to GM's and the media. Jordan took MKG before UNC's All-American Barnes that year and playing the same position.
So, this is all conjecture besides Calipari saying his players are the best all season. Gotcha.
Also, do you honestly believe that Coach K doesn't talk to coaches and GMs about his players? There's a reason why guys like Miles Plumlee get drafted in the first round out of nowhere. There's a reason why a guy like Lance Thomas is earning a NBA paycheck.
Is this just me,or do others think that those with fewer fact, less knowledge in general and have less to say, say it too often.
Seems to me that about 70/80 % of responses are just drivel.
Some people never say anything, but still never quit talking.![[banana]](https://ct.yimg.com/mr/uploads/891/1682178.gif "banana [banana]")
Seems to me that about 70/80 % of responses are just drivel.
Some people never say anything, but still never quit talking.
Seriously? Plumlee is already a flop, even though he's only been in the league 2 years, yet the young UK guys get a pass? Interesting.
I'm talking about the Plumlee that was in like the the 2010 or 2011 class, whichever it was. The older one. Mason, he came out the same year as Cuz and Wall
Miles was a 3-star recruit that unexpectedly got picked in the first round. His career has been far more surprising than bust at this point.
There are a lot of guys collecting a paycheck that are not that good.
The fact remains outside of boozer.. They suck
Mcroberts was #1 recruit in HS for good grief.
Good stats, MSU (MSU?)
Okay, using your stats...
Since 2010, Krzyzewski has had 13 players drafted:
2 second round
11 first round
5 lottery
1 first overall pick
Since 2010 Calipari has had 25 players drafted:
6 second round
19 first round
12 lottery
3 first overall
2009: Duke 2 top 100 and 1 top 10, UK 4 top 100 and 2 top 10
2010: Duke 2 top 100 and 1 top 10, UK 3 top 100 and 2 top 10
2011: Duke 5 top 100 and 1 top 10, UK 4 top 100 and 3 top 10
2012 Duke 2 top 100 and 0 top 10, UK 4 top 100 and 1 top 10
2013: Duke 3 top 100 and 1 top 10, UK 6 top 100 and 5 top 10
2014: Duke 4 top 100 and 2 top 10, UK 4 top 100 and 2 top 10
K has had 5 lottery out of 6 Top 10 talents (83%)
Cal has had 12 lottery out of 15 Top 10 talents (80%)
So they are about equal, which is what I expected... it is tough to mess up top 10 talent. Given that Giles is certainly a Top Ten talent, I don't see that Cal will have some great ability to develop/help him that K doesn't have.
Okay, using your stats...
Since 2010, Krzyzewski has had 13 players drafted:
2 second round
11 first round
5 lottery
1 first overall pick
Since 2010 Calipari has had 25 players drafted:
6 second round
19 first round
12 lottery
3 first overall
2009: Duke 2 top 100 and 1 top 10, UK 4 top 100 and 2 top 10
2010: Duke 2 top 100 and 1 top 10, UK 3 top 100 and 2 top 10
2011: Duke 5 top 100 and 1 top 10, UK 4 top 100 and 3 top 10
2012 Duke 2 top 100 and 0 top 10, UK 4 top 100 and 1 top 10
2013: Duke 3 top 100 and 1 top 10, UK 6 top 100 and 5 top 10
2014: Duke 4 top 100 and 2 top 10, UK 4 top 100 and 2 top 10
K has had 5 lottery out of 6 Top 10 talents (83%)
Cal has had 12 lottery out of 15 Top 10 talents (80%)
So they are about equal, which is what I expected... it is tough to mess up top 10 talent. Given that Giles is certainly a Top Ten talent, I don't see that Cal will have some great ability to develop/help him that K doesn't have.
Seriously, take this shit back to your board. All you 40 year old virgins can circle jerk to splinter and the plumlees
All you want.
Forgot mcroberts was the overall #1 player coming out of high school.
And the only thing you can say is he makes a nice paycheck.
Seriously, get lost.
And for the record I believe our class will finalize like this...
Fox
Monk
Bridges
Giles
Jones
Returnees
Matthews
Mulder
Humphreys
Wynard
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