Ga Tech, inside veer and rocket toss

[adolph rollingover]

Here are a couple short videos explaining Ga Tech inside veer and rocket toss.

Combine with my good friend Freddie Maggard's piece on midline and counter option and will be on your way.

http://toddgreenwell.wixsite.com/dn...gle-post/2016/12/16/The-Georgia-Tech-Flexbone

 

[TuckyFB]

I highly recommend people look at this.

 

[adolph rollingover]

Inside veer and rocket toss are base plays, when D over pursues or gives numbers weak side, the guard tackle counter is run. Notice it looks like the rocket toss until ... the guard and tackle pull and overwhelm the back side.

 

[Nuke99m]

I coached a little of what we called the double wing. The rocket toss was the base play that set everything else up. The counter off of the sweep was always a great play. We also ran a play called X where there was a jet handoff then another handoff to the other wing coming back. You also pulled the tackle and guard so you ended up with the second wing following the tackle through the hole.
Teams never could figure out that to defend our offense all you had to do was to follow the pull men. Of course in college you have influence blocks where you block away from the play.

 

[adolph rollingover]

Don't attempt to follow the B back to the football either.

 

[adolph rollingover]

Stack your backers outside and Ga Tech comes with B back zone. ---zone dive

 

[adolph rollingover]

Ga Tech will send A backs and tackles at the Safeties. Very good and their open field cut blocks.

 

[JasonRDunn]

Todd,
it seems like the QB reads formations. Would lots of movement help UK out by creating a wrong read or hesitation?

 

[adolph rollingover]

Todd,
it seems like the QB reads formations. Would lots of movement help UK out by creating a wrong read or hesitation?

The ol is also reading the defensive alignment. The option offenses break down when the defense can get the OL to block the 'read defender'. This frees up a backend defender. However, the flexbone dive hits so quick that twists, stunts, and shifts are very risky.

Most DC's will continue to change who has five QB and pitch to confuse the ol/QB. These dudes practice every scenario and are adept at diagnosing what the D is doing.

Getting off blocks and avoiding the open field cut block is the best recipe

 

[catmanC15]

This looks as good of a place to ask as any, how does Jordan Jones need to play for us to stop this offense? I know he usually is in somewhat of a free lance position, but do you guys think he will have to play a more disciplined, contain style next Saturday?

 

[adolph rollingover]

Inside linebackers will have their hands full. Most difficult part for Jones will be to ignore the ball and trust his keys. Take a look at the clip above where the linebacker follows the fullback and QB fake to his right. He has the B gap in front of him and can't stray from it. If he stays square and steps up as the Guard waddles toward him he will either force the QB to cut back bounce or pitch early.


On plays like the counter, Jones has tendency to chase the flow, [like the UGA lb did] and leave the DE out to dry. Look for UGA to run veer wide side, get Jones to chase and try to make plays, then jam home the counter for gash plays on the weak side. Staying 'home' is as important as making the tackle

 

[stinger78]

Can I say how impressed I am at the analysis on this board. Probably up there with the Navy board in terms of depth. Well done.

I will say that oddly, it is quick penetration that tends to blow up our offense the most. A few teams just out athlete us at the edges (LSU, Iowa, Clemson, and occasionally VPI, UGA and Miami). Most that give us trouble are the quick ones that get good, quick penetration up the A gap and disrupt the mesh or deep into the alley and disrupt the pitch.

FSU, FWIW, really only slowed us down that once (15 points in 2012 under Stoops) but that was a very marginal team for us that season. Other games with them in CPJ's era have seen us put up 31 (2008), 49 (2009), and 35 (2014) points.

 

[JasonRDunn]

I just feel that this game will be a high scoring affair and will key on whether UK can make timely passes for chunks of yardage and who wins the turnover battle (along with the penalty yards battle).

I am hoping the extra time and practices have the Cats well prepared.

 

[adolph rollingover]

@stinger78 very good point about A gaps. I pulled 3 or 4 clips where UGA was quick enough to send two defenders through same A gap. That is risky so I can only assume they had some sort of 'tell' as to what was coming.

There are so many answrers in the flexbone that a D can't prepare for them all. If I were preparing a D we would spend the entire week on shedding blocks/double teams and avoiding cut blocks. You are not going to out scheme Johnson unless you have the freaks, which UK doesn't have. [johnson is a boss by the way. No playcard, no headset, on the field, shuttling in A backs.]

 

[Blue Decade]

Here are a couple short videos explaining Ga Tech inside veer and rocket toss.

Combine with my good friend Freddie Maggard's piece on midline and counter option and will be on your way.

http://toddgreenwell.wixsite.com/dn...gle-post/2016/12/16/The-Georgia-Tech-Flexbone

I expect both teams to add some new offensive wrinkles in their bowl practices.

 

[RV2]

This looks as good of a place to ask as any, how does Jordan Jones need to play for us to stop this offense? I know he usually is in somewhat of a free lance position, but do you guys think he will have to play a more disciplined, contain style next Saturday?

If he doesn't, it will kill us.

 

[stinger78]

@stinger78 very good point about A gaps. I pulled 3 or 4 clips where UGA was quick enough to send two defenders through same A gap. That is risky so I can only assume they had some sort of 'tell' as to what was coming.

There are so many answrers in the flexbone that a D can't prepare for them all. If I were preparing a D we would spend the entire week on shedding blocks/double teams and avoiding cut blocks. You are not going to out scheme Johnson unless you have the freaks, which UK doesn't have. [johnson is a boss by the way. No playcard, no headset, on the field, shuttling in A backs.]

We use wide splits to enhance blocking angles, hence CPJ's name for his offense is the "spread option." The TO is actually a set of plays within the SO. Depending on our execution and what the other team gives us, we usually run the TO between 30-60% of the time. For example, if the opposing D cannot stop the dive, we will inside veer them to death, but we will also call an assortment called dives. The counter dive is one of them and is particularly devastating if LB's over pursue.

Back to splits... some teams do try to use the motion to time the snap. JT has gotten better at disguising this and minimizing jumping the snap. If a team can do this, then it really messes up the TO portion of our O. Sometimes, though, a team with particularly quick 1-gappers on their DL can get good penetration. Clemson has become very good at this and we struggle with them. But their coaches have seen a lot of our O since they are our permanent crossover division opponent.

IMO, the biggest challenge to preparation for this O is to play strong assignment football, eliminating the big play, and forcing us into 3rd and 4th down regularly to string out drives. The chances of a negative play or a TO looms larger in that scenario. This is also one of JT's few weak area's. He will often try to do too much to make the big play. He is more quick and shifty than powerful (like Josh Nesbitt was), and cannot power through a DL/LB to get the first down. Our best team (2009) was Nesbitt (215 lbs.) at QB, Jon Dwyer at FB (230 lbs.), Anthony Allen (220 lbs.) and Roddy Jones (200 lbs.) at WB and Demaryius Thomas at WR (230 lbs.). We could power through teams and create the infamous 4th quarter "death marches." We seem to live and die by the big play now.

Hope you all have a Merry Christmas!!!

 

[adolph rollingover]

 

[ulismyman]

They also have to prepare for our offense...im kind of sick of hearing about them

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Some posters here pined for Paul Johnson’s offense at UK. While I get the rationale of being the only team in the SEC that plays the triple option, I think Johnson has really taken that offense at Georgia Tech about has far is it can go. The problem is not the scheme or execution. GT has an excellent scheme and runs it to near perfection. And, because it is the odd offense that make preparation extremely difficult for opposing defenses, GT will continue to win games and have winning records.

However, the problem with taking this offense to the top of the ACC or into the playoff is recruiting. Georgia Tech might be able to win a national championship with Lamar Jackson. A true dual threat QB. But, those recruits don’t want to play in the triple option. Only runners with real throwing limitations want to play in that offense because it does not prepare them as well for the NFL QB position. If you can throw the ball, why would you go to Tech?

With a limited QB, I am not sure that the GT offense can be varied enough to get over the current hump. As a UK fan, we long to be at that hump, so I understand why UK fans may want that offense. But, at some point, I think it might be frustrating for the Tech fan.

 

[fromthe25ydline]

I apologize up front, but the GT offense is going to destroy the UK defense if history tells us anything. Stoops' defenses have been slaughtered by option offense's who have very good running QB's. It will take several turnovers to throttle this offense. Sorry, but I've witnessed it too many times the past 4 years. Hope I'm wrong.

 

[stinger78]

There's some truth to the talent at skill position argument (QB with no arm, etc.). That does happen. However, the fallacy is that our QBs don't have to be Dan Marino to be *very* good at running the O.

Take current QB Justin Thomas, for example. He was a spread QB in HS, but was recruited as a DB by Saban. He wanted to play QB and Saban turned him on to Paul Johnson. He has led us to 22 wins in 3 seasons, even counting last year (3 wins) with all the injuries, graduation, and attrition (11 wins, 3 wins, and 8/9 wins).

Even non-prototypical players can excel in PJs O. We weren't getting many of the top players anyway, for our own institutional reasons. His offense, while it has frustrated at times, has been better more often than not.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I think it a great offense and one that is fun to watch. I just think to compete at the highest level (something admittedly few UK fans have a reasonable right to dream about), you need to land a kid who can really throw the ball.

As to the claim that UK is going to be obliterated because Stoops' defenses at UK cannot stop the running QB, that is a real concern. We will know soon enough.

 

[Kybluedude]

After reading I am very concerned. I wrongly thought it was a pretty simplistic attack.

 

[JasonRDunn]

After reading I am very concerned. I wrongly thought it was a pretty simplistic attack.

Actually, it is not simplistic at all. Lots of motion, misdirection, and cutbacks with multiple, very skilled runners. It requires lots of practice and discipline to run and the same to defend. I would hope and expect that we are well prepared. Even with that, we have to play a mistake-free game because their offense doesn't give your offense many chances because of how they like to control time of possession.

 

[buckkiller]

Can we stop this offense? Serious question I am lil concerned. Is it going yo be a game where we must keep ball out of their hands as much as we can to get W? We haven't seen an offense like this under Stooos that I can remember.

 

[StubbornPenny]

So what is the base defense we'll have out there? I'm mostly thinking CB/safety. I see UGA in these clips playing two safeties. Would it be advantageous to leave out best CB (Baity?) on an island and bring up a safety/extra LB to win the numbers game up front? Maybe spy him on the QB or whoever goes in motion? Would they then counter to that side hoping for an open field?

What I'm seeing is that we have to be extremely disciplined, as good as jones is, he has to throw his instincts out or we'll get burned. Like someone said, assignment football all day. Sometimes we'll have to let them get 4 yards instead of trying for the stuff, because one pitch makes it a 15 yarder.

 

[Soupbean]

The ol is also reading the defensive alignment. The option offenses break down when the defense can get the OL to block the 'read defender'. This frees up a backend defender. However, the flexbone dive hits so quick that twists, stunts, and shifts are very risky.

Most DC's will continue to change who has five QB and pitch to confuse the ol/QB. These dudes practice every scenario and are adept at diagnosing what the D is doing.

Getting off blocks and avoiding the open field cut block is the best recipe

This ^ a thousand times. Schemes and assignments matter but not near as much as just beating your man and at point of attack. Do that and you dominate any play. Getting off blocks would be my number one emphasis as a defensive coach anytime. You have to be free to move and make plays. I hate when a LB rushes up to take on a block and get stuck there while the RB runs by him. I'd rather see them take the initiative and explode through a hole before the block arrives or be more patient and use their hands to keep space and then explode to the ball carrier and avoid blockers. Or teach these guys Judo to shed blocks, anything but letting a slow 300 pound blob take you out of a play (no offense to our guys of course).

This is especially important against the option attack. Have to be free to react and make tackles in space

 

[Caveman Catfan]

How will Tech's defense match up with our offense?

 

[stinger78]

How will Tech's defense match up with our offense?

We won't. You'll run all day... at least until you get into the red zone, where we stiffen up considerably. You'll put 300 yards rushing on us between the 20's. They key will be how you can finish drives in those tough yards around the GL, and how may times you give us possessions on TO's.

Same with us.

Keep in mind that to say GA Tech runs the triple option is like saying GM makes Chevy's. It's just part of their line. The TO is just part of what we run. Depending on the D, it is a major or minor part. CPJ's O is what he calls a "spread option," that includes the TO in it. In addition, we also run trips and quads in passing plays. Our slots are all at least pretty good receivers. Qua Searcy was a WR in HS. When it's clicking, it's a bear to stop, and we just don't pass much.

The key, as adolph has shown, is execution. I would say that one issue with our W/L in bowls has been crappy execution on our part after the layoff as much as it has been the opposing D. This is a real issue for us Saturday. I am concerned.

 

[hiveredtech]

Some posters here pined for Paul Johnson’s offense at UK. While I get the rationale of being the only team in the SEC that plays the triple option, I think Johnson has really taken that offense at Georgia Tech about has far is it can go. The problem is not the scheme or execution. GT has an excellent scheme and runs it to near perfection. And, because it is the odd offense that make preparation extremely difficult for opposing defenses, GT will continue to win games and have winning records.

However, the problem with taking this offense to the top of the ACC or into the playoff is recruiting. Georgia Tech might be able to win a national championship with Lamar Jackson. A true dual threat QB. But, those recruits don’t want to play in the triple option. Only runners with real throwing limitations want to play in that offense because it does not prepare them as well for the NFL QB position. If you can throw the ball, why would you go to Tech?

With a limited QB, I am not sure that the GT offense can be varied enough to get over the current hump. As a UK fan, we long to be at that hump, so I understand why UK fans may want that offense. But, at some point, I think it might be frustrating for the Tech fan.

We are who we are. Recruiting is a huge challenge at GT and always has been regardless of the style of offense. We have just been fortunate to have some good football minds coaching over the years that keep us competitive with what they have.

The primary recruiting issue is that GT is the only school in all of FBS that is without a single non-STEM major. In others words, every major at GT requires at least one year of calculus, engineering, science, and technology. The easiest major is the Business school which is one of the top 25 in the country and requires all of the aforementioned courses. There is not an Education, Communications, Sports History, Hospitality, Criminal Justice, Sociology, etc major at GT...all majors big time athletes look for. To top it off, NCAA instituted the APR in 2003 which means football players have to graduate at the same rate is regular students...but only 20% of applicants to GT get accepted and the average ACT as 33 with 12 AP classes completed in HS...so the graduation rate is 85-90%.

So...competing with UGA, Clemson, Auburn, Florida, Alabama, etc in our backyard is quite the challenge....far behind our style of offense or defense.

Looking forward to the game Saturday...going to be fun for all of us!

 

[adolph rollingover]

@hiveredtech

That is information I did not know. Was aware of the high academic standing of Tech but didn't realize it was such a specialized school. Had a friend's daughter play volleyball there and she said it was brutal. Thanks.

 

[hiveredtech]

How will Tech's defense match up with our offense?

Defensively we are not strong to a man. We have only signed two 4 or 5 star players in the past four recruiting classes combined...so athletically the defensive side of the ball is where recruiting deficiencies tend to show up as it is more challenging to "out-scheme" on that side of the ball. As all of us know, defense requires those head hunter type of players. Because of that we have to be opportunistic with big plays such as a TFL, INT, or fumble recovery. With the lack of size and athleticism in the front seven...it forces us in passing situations to us to either bring a lot of pressure or drop 8 in coverage. A four man rush often finds us taking away no part of the field well. From a running game standpoint, we struggle in helmet to helmet smash mouth football because of the same talent issues in the front seven...and when we bring a safety in the box to help make up that gap then we all know what can happen. Statistically we are one of the worst 3rd down conversion teams in the country. Kentucky's offense scares me...well, just about all offenses scare me.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Thanks. I knew that the third down conversion was a problem for Tech, but also realize your teams has Dominated take-aways

 

[stinger78]

Thanks. I knew that the third down conversion was a problem for Tech, but also realize your teams has Dominated take-aways

TO's have been our saving grace the past few years. We have a very "flexible," but opportunistic D. If UK can hold onto the ball, they will have a great chance to win the game. Same can be said for Tech. I think it will be an interesting game.