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Formula 1

Great convo here.

Catsfanbgky I understand now why you’re having such an issue with this. I didn’t know what an undercut or overcut was either the first time I watched a race.

I’ll also point out that Piastri DID pass Norris on the track - with a much better start. Hence Oscar controlled the race from the start and that’s why things turned out the way they did.
 
Well if Piastri was a half second slower in the pits (was behind 2 seconds before pitting, came out he was 2.5 seconds behind), it seems like to me he lost ground in the pits. Not Lando's fault his crew didn't get him out quicker. I just do not understand why pitting sooner helped Lando at the END. Did Piastri not have fresher tires ? He should have been faster on fresher tires (pitting after Lando). I mean how does one racer (Lando) pitting sooner (why didn't Piastri pit with him ?) cause a situation where he should "give" a lead back ? I mean both had to pit eventually. If it is a big deal, why doesn't NASCAR make teammates give up leads if he pits sooner ? All I know is, after both pitted, Lando was running away from Piastri and Piastri had fresher tires. I do not see why he should give up the lead for pitting sooner. Also, IF Piastri was that much better than Lando (he wasn't or he would have ran him down), why didn't McLaren have Lando protect Piastri ? Bottom line is this, Lando has a shot at winning the championship (is that not racing is all about ?), costing him 7 points by giving the teammate a win is NOT how racing is suppose to work. NASCAR teams pit early all the time and you see the leader fade when his tires wear out because he had more laps on them. Piastri should have been faster than Lando and he simply was NOT or he would not have needed the gift. Bottom line, he GAVE him the win, the fastest car at the END didn't win because he slowed down and gave the lead to a teammate. After the race, several media members said it was very controversial, I am not the only one with a problem with it. Last post on this topic, but "protecting" a guy and letting him pit sooner should not be a valid reason to have a guy give up a win. How many races in NASCAR do you see a racer dominate for over half of the race, but fade in the end ? Track conditions, cars, temperatures all change during a race, so saying Piastri letting Lando pit first is not a valid claim that Piastri was the best car at the end. I do not think pitting sooner or Piastri "protecting" Lando was the reason, I think Lando's car simply got better as the race wore on. NOBODY can convince me any different. The BEST car at the end of the race, did not win. It is not about who has the best car for the first half / 3/4 of the race, it is the guy who is the fastest at the end that matters. I see no advantage Lando gained, they BOTH had the same distance lost on the track when they pitted. Was Hamilton really that much of a threat in the end ? Maybe he was at the time Lando pitted, but at the end of the race, he was nowhere close to challenging for the win, neither was Piastri. How come Verstappen never needs "protecting" ? Because most races, he has the faster car, makes the best adjustments during the race.
 
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"The team asked Norris to let Piastri pass because the team had previously effectively asked Piastri to let Norris pass during the second pit stops. They were just undoing what they did earlier. If Norris wanted to push for the win, he should’ve either gotten a better race start instead of letting Piastri overtake him, or he should have let Piastri pass him sooner in the final stint and then raced Piastri to the checkered flag."

If that is the case, why couldn't Piastri catch up to Lando ? He had fresher tires, supposedly the best car. Simple explanation is Lando's car got better as the race wore on. IF Piastri was that fast, he shouldn't have needed help catching Lando. His car was NOT as good in the end. Thus, Lando had to slow down and let him pass. You would think the best car would be gaining ground in the last laps of the race, not losing ground. No matter when either pitted, at the end, Lando had the best car, If he didn't he would not have had to slow down, and he really had a problem "giving" the win to the slower car, I would have loved to see him keep running away. All I want answered is this, IF Piastri had the better car, why was he not gaining ground at the end ?

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Well if Piastri was a half second slower in the pits (was behind 2 seconds before pitting, came out he was 2.5 seconds behind), it seems like to me he lost ground in the pits. Not Lando's fault his crew didn't get him out quicker. I just do not understand why pitting sooner helped Lando at the END. Did Piastri not have fresher tires ? He should have been faster on fresher tires (pitting after Lando). I mean how does one racer (Lando) pitting sooner (why didn't Piastri pit with him ?) cause a situation where he should "give" a lead back ? I mean both had to pit eventually. If it is a big deal, why doesn't NASCAR make teammates give up leads if he pits sooner ? All I know is, after both pitted, Lando was running away from Piastri and Piastri had fresher tires. I do not see why he should give up the lead for pitting sooner. Also, IF Piastri was that much better than Lando (he wasn't or he would have ran him down), why didn't McLaren have Lando protect Piastri ? Bottom line is this, Lando has a shot at winning the championship (is that not racing is all about ?), costing him 7 points by giving the teammate a win is NOT how racing is suppose to work. NASCAR teams pit early all the time and you see the leader fade when his tires wear out because he had more laps on them. Piastri should have been faster than Lando and he simply was NOT or he would not have needed the gift. Bottom line, he GAVE him the win, the fastest car at the END didn't win because he slowed down and gave the lead to a teammate. After the race, several media members said it was very controversial, I am not the only one with a problem with it. Last post on this topic, but "protecting" a guy and letting him pit sooner should not be a valid reason to have a guy give up a win. How many races in NASCAR do you see a racer dominate for over half of the race, but fade in the end ? Track conditions, cars, temperatures all change during a race, so saying Piastri letting Lando pit first is not a valid claim that Piastri was the best car at the end. I do not think pitting sooner or Piastri "protecting" Lando was the reason, I think Lando's car simply got better as the race wore on. NOBODY can convince me any different. The BEST car at the end of the race, did not win. It is not about who has the best car for the first half / 3/4 of the race, it is the guy who is the fastest at the end that matters. I see no advantage Lando gained, they BOTH had the same distance lost on the track when they pitted. Was Hamilton really that much of a threat in the end ? Maybe he was at the time Lando pitted, but at the end of the race, he was nowhere close to challenging for the win, neither was Piastri. How come Verstappen never needs "protecting" ? Because most races, he has the faster car, makes the best adjustments during the race.
Piastri didnt lose position because he lost time in the pits. Lando’s pit stop was 21.823 seconds and Piastri’s was 21.249, so Piastri’s pit stop was only 0.574 seconds longer due to a slow tire change. Piastri lost position because the undercut the team gave Norris was worth ~4 seconds. Piastri was 2 seconds AHEAD of Norris when McLaren started pitting Norris. When Piastri exited the pits he was then 2.5 seconds BEHIND. That’s a 4.5 second swing.

Whoever McLaren decided to pit first was going to be in the lead, even if they had equal pit stop lengths. If Norris pitted first, he would be 2 seconds ahead. If Piastri would’ve pitted first, then that would’ve increased Piastri’s lead over Norris to 6 seconds. As the lead driver who had been controlling the race, Piastri should’ve pitted first but McLaren decided to pit Norris because they were worried about how quickly Hamilton was closing in on Norris.

Again, you don’t seem to understand how the undercut works. It is an indisputable fact that the only reason Norris took the lead is because McLaren gifted it to him by pitting him first instead of Piastri. If Piastri pits first, Piastri’s lead over Norris would’ve gotten bigger.
 
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Well why didn't Piastri run down Lando if he had the better car ? Was Lando not over 6 seconds ahead of Piastri when he had to slow down and give up the lead ? Simple question, IF he had the best car, then why, while on fresher tires, having the faster car, could he not make up ground on Lando ? Also answer me this, IF Piastri pitted first, had the lead, do you not think that Lando could have caught up with him by having fresher tires and a LOT faster car ? It all cycled thru, Piastri pitted second, he should have been faster, he wasn't. Flip the script, I guarantee you Lando would have caught him, BECAUSE HIS CAR WAS BETTER at the end of the race. Piastri's car, while on fresher tires, fell off, thus he lost ground that if reversed, Lando would have made up the ground Piastri "gave" him. The best car did not win, it was OBVIOUS to anyone who watched, at the end of the race, Lando had the better / faster car, thus the letting him pit first would not have mattered, he would have caught Piastri and won. The better car did NOT win the race, and the slower one didn't either, he was gifted the win.

LANDO ON OLDER TIRES WAS PULLING FARTHER AND FARTHER AWAY FROM THE SUPPOSEDLY FASTER CAR. Explain how if he had the better car, he did not make up ground, he lost ground ? Explain that, and I will concede the debate. But without doing so, I will keep the belief that a driver should NEVER have to let another driver win by slowing down so he could pass. Why did they not let him catch up, get side by side, and let the best car decide the winner ???? It was a stupid decision and is NOT what racing is about, IDGAF what type of racing you consider.
 
Well why didn't Piastri run down Lando if he had the better car ? Was Lando not over 6 seconds ahead of Piastri when he had to slow down and give up the lead ? Simple question, IF he had the best car, then why, while on fresher tires, having the faster car, could he not make up ground on Lando ? Also answer me this, IF Piastri pitted first, had the lead, do you not think that Lando could have caught up with him by having fresher tires and a LOT faster car ? It all cycled thru, Piastri pitted second, he should have been faster, he wasn't. Flip the script, I guarantee you Lando would have caught him, BECAUSE HIS CAR WAS BETTER at the end of the race. Piastri's car, while on fresher tires, fell off, thus he lost ground that if reversed, Lando would have made up the ground Piastri "gave" him. The best car did not win, it was OBVIOUS to anyone who watched, at the end of the race, Lando had the better / faster car, thus the letting him pit first would not have mattered, he would have caught Piastri and won. The better car did NOT win the race, and the slower one didn't either, he was gifted the win.

LANDO ON OLDER TIRES WAS PULLING FARTHER AND FARTHER AWAY FROM THE SUPPOSEDLY FASTER CAR. Explain how if he had the better car, he did not make up ground, he lost ground ? Explain that, and I will concede the debate. But without doing so, I will keep the belief that a driver should NEVER have to let another driver win by slowing down so he could pass. Why did they not let him catch up, get side by side, and let the best car decide the winner ???? It was a stupid decision and is NOT what racing is about, IDGAF what type of racing you consider.
Piastri didn’t run Norris down because he was given a target lap time to manage his tires and he stuck to it. Norris was also told to manage his tires and he completely ignored that. Norris’ engineer was repeatedly on the radio asking Norris to watch how hard he was pushing the tires, especially in T4 and T11.

Norris wasn’t pulling away because he was faster. Norris was pulling away because he was pushing and Piastri wasn’t pushing.

Norris got selfish and tried to take advantage of an undercut he didn’t deserve and kept pushing. Piastri assumed Norris would do the right thing and listened to the team direction to manage his tires. That’s why their lap times were different.

Are you not familiar with things like how race pace is managed, or how lap times are impacted by the degree to which a driver is pushing?
 
Catsfan, I can say that the first several F1 races I watched when I started to get into it, I had the exact same types of questions. It’s just something you learn by watching more. And remember, it’s not nascar, nor is it supposed to be anything like nascar. Once you get to that point it becomes really enjoyable.
 
It was nice to see that Lando’s come to his senses about this past weekend. Hopefully he can prevent the red mist from taking over in the future. There’s a long tradition in F1 of great drivers who were able to win championships without compromising on sportsmanship. I hope Norris can add to that legacy.

With Verstappen taking an engine penalty this weekend, Norris has opportunity to take another chunk out of Verstappen’s lead in the standings. Hopefully he can take advantage of that.

Can’t wait for the race this Sunday. Spa is my favorite track on the F1 calendar.

https://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/...-norris-regrets-oscar-piastri-win-controversy
 
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Should be a very contested race. lets just hope the drivers are allowed to run their cars and pit crews are allowed to have their race plans to actually win the race. May the best car win, pit when YOUR team decides to pit, run your race the best way possible so that YOU have a chance to win. I can bet you one thing, Lando will not have any deals with other teammates that will cost him a chance at winning or the very least close in on Verstappen's lead. I will continue to believe it was done so that the young driver could get him his first win and boost his confidence (Piastri). Run the race to win the race.

It is also crazy how Verstappen can win 7 of the first 10 races and there could still be a chance someone could catch him for the championship. I am not a fan of the NASCAR playoff system either. A guy can dominate the point race for 20 races, then it all resets and becomes a 8 (or who ever many races the playoffs consist of) race competition for the title. Just go back to the year long points system, maybe add a more substantial boost in points for wins. Racing is NOT like team sports where playoffs make it more exciting. IMO. Especially if a situation comes into play when the last remaining tracks have several tracks the leader may not be the strongest at. If a driver shows he is the best on ALL of the tracks combined, he should be champion, not decide it by a limited amount of tracks run at the end. Oh, and get ride of Gen cars and the stupid restrictor plates at super speedways. it doesn't cut down the chances of serious injury (or even death0, it enhances it with all the cars being bunched up not able to separate or pass without the help of several cars pushing them from behind. Boring,,, and dangerous.
 
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Damn, Russell balled out, winning with the 1 stopper. Helluva performance.

Hamilton should have had it, but got loose a couple of times (uncharacteristically) and it cost him.

What a run by George Russell. Pretty damn happy for him.

And Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps might be the best track in the series, IMO. Just a gorgeous "tire shredder", combined with the surroundings. Love it.

I can't remember, was it Piastri or Norris that almost killed his front jack man? LOL, that dude took a HUGE shot. I mean, DAMN...
 
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Damn, Russell balled out, winning with the 1 stopper. Helluva performance.

Hamilton should have had it, but got loose a couple of times (uncharacteristically) and it cost him.

What a run by George Russell. Pretty damn happy for him.

And Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps might be the best track in the series, IMO. Just a gorgeous "tire shredder", combined with the surroundings. Love it.

I can't remember, was it Piastri or Norris that almost killed his front jack man? LOL, that dude took a HUGE shot. I mean, DAMN...
Piastri overshot the landing...
 
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When Hamilton reported, over the radio, that "I feel something moving around on my leg", was I the only one that immediately thought of a spider? And then I pictured me, in an F1 car, freaking out, driving off the track, jumping out, and frantically trying to "GET IT OFF OF ME! GET IT OFF OF ME!!" lol
 
Damn...

How the hell does something like that happen? 3.3 pounds...
Just guessing, but Russell’s audible to go to a one stop may have thrown off the pre-race calculations and contributed a bit. His tires would have shed a lot of rubber, and may have been much lighter than when new.

At Spa, there’s also no cool down lap. At the end of the race, drivers come around La Source and then immediately turn into the pit exit. They then drive the wrong way down pit lane back towards parc ferme.

No cool down lap means there no chance for the drivers to pick up discarded rubber from the side of the track to make sure they meet minimum weight.

I’m guessing there might’ve been these types of small oversights and they just added up to be enough to warrant a disqualification.

However it happened though, pretty brutal way to end the day for Russell.
 
Just guessing, but Russell’s audible to go to a one stop may have thrown off the pre-race calculations and contributed a bit. His tires would have shed a lot of rubber, and may have been much lighter than when new.

At Spa, there’s also no cool down lap. At the end of the race, drivers come around La Source and then immediately turn into the pit exit. They then drive the wrong way down pit lane back towards parc ferme.

No cool down lap means there no chance for the drivers to pick up discarded rubber from the side of the track to make sure they meet minimum weight.

I’m guessing there might’ve been these types of small oversights and they just added up to be enough to warrant a disqualification.

However it happened though, pretty brutal way to end the day for Russell.

Good points. But I would submit, that if measures like picking up discarded rubber in order to make weight, and being light because of 1 stopping, that they're shaving it a little thin with the rules, provided nothing but 3.3 pounds is off about the car.

Sometimes Formula 1 can't stay out of their own ****ing way.
 
Good points. But I would submit, that if measures like picking up discarded rubber in order to make weight, and being light because of 1 stopping, that they're shaving it a little thin with the rules, provided nothing but 3.3 pounds is off about the car.

Sometimes Formula 1 can't stay out of their own ****ing way.
The way to win in F1 is to get everything as close as you possibly can to limit. They do it with weight, they do it with fuel loads, etc.

While this approach may come back to bite them from time to time, the alternative would be for teams to leave themselves more margin which is guaranteed to do one thing: make their car slower.

If you give me the choice between a slower car that will never be disqualified, or a faster car that potentially could get disqualified at some point, I’m taking my chances with the faster car.
 
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Looks like ESPN is reporting that the initial thinking is that tire wear is the reason Russell was underweight.

At the risk of hyperbole, if that’s the true reason he was underweight, then that has to make Russell’s final stint one of the most legendary stints in the history of F1.

The guy literallly drove the wheels off his car and still managed to have enough left to hold off a charge from Hamilton at the end. And he did it at a track that places high loads on the tires and had a surface that was a bit more abrasive from the recent resurfacing and the rain cleaning the rubber off the racing line.

Extremely impressive performance and what a tough way to lose a victory.

 
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According to what I’ve seen calculated on some pretty good F1 sites, Russell gained about 1.98 seconds over the course of the race due to being underweight. So that basically was the difference between first and 2nd or 3rd.

Weight is a hilarious thing. I’ve seen interviews with a couple of old timers who wouldn’t paint their helmets to save a few grams.
 
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The way to win in F1 is to get everything as close as you possibly can to limit. They do it with weight, they do it with fuel loads, etc.

While this approach may come back to bite them from time to time, the alternative would be for teams to leave themselves more margin which is guaranteed to do one thing: make their car slower.

If you give me the choice between a slower car that will never be disqualified, or a faster car that potentially could get disqualified at some point, I’m taking my chances with the faster car.

The old NASCAR adage. If you ain’t cheating’ you ain’t tryin’.
 
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According to what I’ve seen calculated on some pretty good F1 sites, Russell gained about 1.98 seconds over the course of the race due to being underweight. So that basically was the difference between first and 2nd or 3rd.

Weight is a hilarious thing. I’ve seen interviews with a couple of old timers who wouldn’t paint their helmets to save a few grams.
Mercedes cars are called Silver Arrows because they stripped the white paint off the cars in order to get below the 750kg maximum weight for the 1934 Eifel race. This exposed the cars’ silver-colored, aluminum bodywork.

Recently, Alpine also limited the amount of paint on their cars as they were struggling to get closer to minimum weight. That was the reason they had so much exposed carbon fiber on their body work.

There’s no part of an F1 car they won’t obsess over when it comes to trying to find weight savings.
 
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no chance for the drivers to pick up discarded rubber from the side of the track to make sure they meet minimum weight.
I thought that before weighing, they turn the cars upside down & shake them to get loose debris out.
 
Another stupid F1 ending. 1.5 pounds underweight. Boy what an advantage he had. The under weight was caused by the driver losing weight in the car during the race and tires losing rubber because he out smarted the other drivers and only stopped for 1 pit stop. Why not weight the cars BEFORE the race ? I mean after the race and by only 1.5 pounds under you take a win away from a guy ??? 2.5 hours AFTER he was paraded around as the winner. Just dumb.

Also, what is the point having the 3 podium finishers go sit in a little small ass room in studio chairs ? I was sitting there watching them and thought "God this is so stupid, maybe have couches or at least comfortable chairs if they are going to cram them in a little 8/4 jail cell size room". Pointless and really odd looking. Looks like they was sitting in billiards chairs or something. Do they at least have a pool table for the guys to past time, rather than just sit and look at each other ?

I am really trying to like and watch Formula 1 racing, but the last two weeks has me really second guessing my decision.
Last week : racer slows down and lets his teammate pass him because he got to pit sooner.
This week : DQ a racer who won, but he lost weight sitting in a hot ass car sweating for 3 hours and was smarter than the other races and only pitted once, but as a result, his tires lost rubber thus lost weight. ONE AND A HALF POUNDS. He didn't cheat, have an unfair advantage of more horsepower or illegal part / fuel cell.
 
Another stupid F1 ending. 1.5 pounds underweight. Boy what an advantage he had. The under weight was caused by the driver losing weight in the car during the race and tires losing rubber because he out smarted the other drivers and only stopped for 1 pit stop. Why not weight the cars BEFORE the race ? I mean after the race and by only 1.5 pounds under you take a win away from a guy ??? 2.5 hours AFTER he was paraded around as the winner. Just dumb.

Also, what is the point having the 3 podium finishers go sit in a little small ass room in studio chairs ? I was sitting there watching them and thought "God this is so stupid, maybe have couches or at least comfortable chairs if they are going to cram them in a little 8/4 jail cell size room". Pointless and really odd looking. Looks like they was sitting in billiards chairs or something. Do they at least have a pool table for the guys to past time, rather than just sit and look at each other ?

I am really trying to like and watch Formula 1 racing, but the last two weeks has me really second guessing my decision.
Last week : racer slows down and lets his teammate pass him because he got to pit sooner.
This week : DQ a racer who won, but he lost weight sitting in a hot ass car sweating for 3 hours and was smarter than the other races and only pitted once, but as a result, his tires lost rubber thus lost weight. ONE AND A HALF POUNDS. He didn't cheat, have an unfair advantage of more horsepower or illegal part / fuel cell.
Toto knew it before they even announced it. Did you see his somber reaction to a 1-2 finish? They tried to skirt it and got caught. It happens. Mercedes took their medicine and will move on.
 
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Estimates are that that amount of weight difference would add up to about 2 seconds over the course of that race. So it's a bigger deal than I originally thought.

Also, it seems that Mercedes lied about draining all of the fuel after the race.
 
If it was an advantage for the whole race maybe. Him sweating and losing weight combined with the worn down tires losing rubber, the car being under weight only happened at the end of the race. Also, why not weight the cars BEFORE the race begins ? It is just a tough pill to swallow with it being only 1.5 pounds. Take away the obvious weight loss and lost rubber from worn tires, the car was "legal" to begin the face.

Simple solution and not have this silly thing happen again, weigh the cars pre-race, if they are legal, let them race. You can not convince me that being under weight so minimal AFTER the race, they was trying to cheat. It is obvious to me, the car being under weight was not a result of running an illegal car. I mean weighing them after the race, so many things can change the weight of a car, amount of fuel left, body weight of the driver after the race compared to before, maybe a piece of the car gets damaged or falls off. Maybe have a +/- margin of error. Hell maybe even weight the drivers before and after the race. I would say with the heat, being in the car so long, he easily lost a pound or two.

There just has to be a way to not penalize a driver for being under weight by such a slim margin that it is obvious to anyone with common sense, the car started the race with the legal weight allowed. Now after the race, if he is 10-20 pounds under, then I could see enforcing the under weight penalty, but 1.5 pounds, that is ludicrous.
 
Yeah, I find the "end of race car weight" thing a little difficult to wrap my head around, since they are weighed at the beginning of the race. I'm not sure how you could reduce the weight of the card "in race", so it really doesn't make much sense. But they're pretty strict about it. If the fact that Russell was able to finish the race on two sets of tires, through skill, and therefore lost 3 pounds of rubber combined over the 4 tyres then well, it DOES seem like a silly rule.

Why not weigh the cars, before and after, with an empty fuel tank and no tyres?
 
Yeah, I find the "end of race car weight" thing a little difficult to wrap my head around, since they are weighed at the beginning of the race. I'm not sure how you could reduce the weight of the card "in race", so it really doesn't make much sense. But they're pretty strict about it. If the fact that Russell was able to finish the race on two sets of tires, through skill, and therefore lost 3 pounds of rubber combined over the 4 tyres then well, it DOES seem like a silly rule.

Why not weigh the cars, before and after, with an empty fuel tank and no tyres?

Because the tires are part of the car.
 
Other drivers also did the same tire/pit strategy and passed. The difference, Russell and Mercedes made changes to the car to revert to older parts. This along with the tires, fuel and everything else likely dropped them under the weight limit.
 
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