Final 4 Semi-Finals - Son_Of_Saul vs. DraftCat

[DraftCat]

Welcome to March Madness this is the Final 4 of the 2024 UK Draft. (Click Here for Bracket).

Voters - Please vote for the team you believe would win in a 1 game elimination format. You will be able to change your vote and voting period is open for 48 hours. If a tie should occur I will extend the voting by another 2 hours until the tie is broken. Your vote will be visible.

@Son_Of_Saul - John Wall, Demarcus Cousins, Jodie Meeks, Antonio Reeves, PJ Washington, Keldon Johnson,Tyler Herro, Mark Pope, Reggie Hanson, Cason Wallace, Jarrod Polson

vs.

@DraftCat - Antoine Walker, Kenny Sky Walker, Wayne Turner, Nerlens Noel, Gerald Fitch. Robert Dillingham, Ed Davender, Bill Spivey, Trey Lyles, James Young, Cameron Mills

 

[DraftCat]

Starters

PG - Wayne Turner. 6'2
SG - Gerald Fitch 6'3
SF - Kenny Sky Walker 6'8
PF- Antoine Walker 6'9
C - Nerlens Noel 6'10

Super 6th man - Robert Dillingham. 6'3. (I'm sorry he still doesn't start)

Bench

PG - Ed Davender 6'2
SG - Robert Dillingham 6'3
SF - James Young 6'6
PF - Trey Lyles 6'9
C - Bill Spivey 7'0

(Walk on) - Cameron Mills 6'3


Quick synopsis of my team is I believe I put together a perfect mix of defensive and offensive players that can give any team a fit in March Madness. My team can run and gun but we likely thrive in a rock fight.

Great thing about my team is I feel like I can certainly play many different line up constructions. I have Wayne Turner and Noel as two of the best defensive players in Kentucky history but if I need offense I can sub them out for Dilly, Davender, Spivey and James Young


*First look I find this to be a pretty compelling matchup and pretty even. I think my team may be a bit more consistant offensively and defensively but my opponent does not lack star power... which makes for a great match up*

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

I'll keep this short.

He has a roster filled with elite guys who can make two pointers.

I have a roster filled with elite guys who can make two pointers and three pointers. We have eight players who shot at least 35% from three.

Fitch is a good shooter, but low volume. He's going for 10 to 12 points in a game like this.

Dillingham is great offensively, but how much does @DraftCat play him against guys like Meeks, Reeves, and Herro? Those guys will feast offensively against Dillingham, who is one of the worst guard defenders we've ever had in a Kentucky rotation.

Turner vs. Wall will be fun to watch. Both will want to push pace, although I think a halfcourt setting is what @DraftCat 's entire roster lends itself towards.

Noel may contain Boogie a bit, but let's remember that Noel's not going for more than 10 to 12 points in this game himself. He was never a scorer, especially in a game where he'll be the fifth option. We can play off Noel a bit and help Reeves if Walker posts him up.

PG Wall vs. Turner = Wall, slight advantage
SG Meeks vs. Fitch = Wall, major advantage
SF Reeves vs. Kenny Walker = push (from a practical impact level, this is true). Kenny will post up Reeves, but can you visualize Kenny defending Reeves out on the perimeter?
PF Washington vs. Antoine Walker = Walker, slight advantage
C Cousins vs. Noel = Cousins, slight advantage

Bench: Respectfully, I think I have an advantage here. I bring two scorers and two defenders off the bench. All five of my bench players can hit the three, including Pope.

I have eight players on my roster who shot at least 35% from three.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

With all due respect, @DraftCat 's bench if filled with non-defenders. Young, Lyles, and Dillingham will have trouble defending in this game. He's going to have to lean heavily on Davender.

Outside of Noel and Turner and a bit from Kenny Walker, his lack of overall defense lends itself to my team forcing pace in this game. Turner would often be able to control tempo, but not with Wall. Turner, as we know struggled to guard elite guards like Mateen Cleaves, Mike Bibby, etc. How does he contain Wall in this game if he struggles with guys who were inferior to Wall? Plus, Turner's strengths and weaknesses are the same as Wall's, except Wall's strengths are superior to Turner's.

Spivey's not going to be a factor in this game. He was a career 38% field goal shooter as a seven footer in the 1950s. How does that translate to playing against Boogie, PJ, and Pope?

 

[DraftCat]

Dilly and Fitch are 40% Three point shooters who will space the floor... but lets not forget that the highest % shot in basketball is within the paint.

Lets face it his team is touting 3 point shooters who've we all seen go cold. Wall vs. West Virginia. Reeves vs. Kansas State 1 for 15 performance. Herro 3 for 16 in his last 4 games as a Wildcat.

I don't think this game is going to be a game where each team puts up 80+.... it will be in the 60's and I believe that advantage goes to the bigger and better defense team who has enough offense to pull out a win in March/April.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Dilly and Fitch are 40% Three point shooters who will space the floor... but lets not forget that the highest % shot in basketball is within the paint.

Lets face it his team is touting 3 point shooters who've we all seen go cold. Wall vs. West Virginia. Reeves vs. Kansas State 1 for 15 performance. Herro 3 for 16 in his last 4 games as a Wildcat.

I don't think this game is going to be a game where each team puts up 80+.... it will be in the 60's and I believe that advantage goes to the bigger and better defense team who has enough offense to pull out a win in March/April.

We can all cherry pick games. Fitch (5/16 from the field) and crew choking against UAB in the 2nd round as a 1 seed? Bill Spivey's CAREER scoring mark of 38% from the field? Wayne Turner career ender against MSU on 2/8 shooting? Antoine Walker's virtual no-show in the 1996 title game? Off games are going to come and go, but you have to have real bodies to replace them who can produce. We have those guys.

I have eight guys who can shoot threes, not just three or four. If Reeves goes cold, you put in Keldon at 38% from three. If Keldon is cold, you put in Hanson at 35% from three. If Hanson is cold, you put in Herro at 35% from three.

That's not even counting Meeks, who's capable of knocking down multiple threes in one game changing flurry of possessions.

 

[DraftCat]

Honestly I guess it's the way you think the game plays out. There is only so many minutes to go around. Your starters are going to get the lion share. In my opinion it's a Final 4 game there's going to be jitters which leans more towards a rock fight.

If this scenario plays out you will have two of the best defensive players in UK History (Turner and Noel) going up against two superstar freshman in Wall and Boogie. I think experience here wins out not only from a defensive stand point but the pressure and magnitude of the game. If Turner and Noel get the best or draw even vs. their matchups I like our chances from the 3 and 4 spot.

These two can absolutely do damage against their opponent.

SF - Kenny Sky Walker 6'8. vs. Antonio Reeves don't even see how this is close.
PF- Antoine Walker 6'9 vs. PJ Washington - I'll give the edge to Walker.

I don't think my scoring punch off the bench gets enough credit. We've all seen and recently how red hot Dilly can get. He can make a close rock fight into a 10 point advantage within a minute. James Young from the wing seemed to always make a clutch 3 when needed.

 

[nickhorvathsuxazz]

Went w/ Saul because of DraftCats mismanagement of the Walkers. Antoine's the 3 and Sky the 4; it's the more natural fit offensively and defensively.

 

[TriangleUKCat]

Not voting because I haven’t before this round but same. Walker head scratcher.

 

[DraftCat]

Went w/ Saul because of DraftCats mismanagement of the Walkers. Antoine's the 3 and Sky the 4; it's the more natural fit offensively and defensively.

Antoine is 224 LBS - I mean am I suppose to keep a man that big floating out guarding a 3?

Basketball Reference shows the below

Antoine is listed as a PF
Sky Walker - SF/PF

I didn't see them play but can hardly judge my lineup construction based on what position they are shown to have. Plus Sky Walker is the 2nd leading scorer all-time at KY with a high % of shots made inside the arc. I want him close to the basket period.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Went w/ Saul because of DraftCats mismanagement of the Walkers. Antoine's the 3 and Sky the 4; it's the more natural fit offensively and defensively.

And neither one could shoot or would shoot in college. Kenny played during a time when the three point line was being implemented, but if they had the three point line in his tenure, his eventual NBA shooting shows us what he would have been in college: a 21% three point shooter.

Antoine Walker went on to be a decent NBA three point shooter, but at Kentucky he was pretty marginal. He was a career 25% three point shooter in two seasons at UK.

Together, they provide no spacing from the forward spots, and even less when one considers that Noel can't make a jump shot.

 

[jrpross]

Dang, great matchup. I like SoS’s guards better but Draftcat’s forwards better. Then you’ve got offense vs defense at the 5. Both benches are very comparable. I had to go with SoS though because quite simply, he stacked with shooters. 3 of his 5 starters and everyone on his bench can hit an outside shot. Draft really only has one starter and 3 bench players that can reliably hit from outside. His team has a ton going for them and in a series of 10, I bet they take 3 or 4. But if I gotta go with one game, SoS takes it.

 

[storm1507]

This one is pretty close but to think Reeves is equal to Kenny Walker is laughable. Kenny could shoot pretty good out to about 18.

 

[storm1507]

Went w/ Saul because of DraftCats mismanagement of the Walkers. Antoine's the 3 and Sky the 4; it's the more natural fit offensively and defensively.

I would play Kenny at the 3 on defense and the 4 on offense when played with Antoine.

 

[nickhorvathsuxazz]

Antoine is 224 LBS - I mean am I suppose to keep a man that big floating out guarding a 3?

Basketball Reference shows the below

Antoine is listed as a PF
Sky Walker - SF/PF

I didn't see them play but can hardly judge my lineup construction based on what position they are shown to have. Plus Sky Walker is the 2nd leading scorer all-time at KY with a high % of shots made inside the arc. I want him close to the basket period.

That's why Sky's the 4

 

[drcats2013]

This one is pretty close but to think Reeves is equal to Kenny Walker is laughable. Kenny could shoot pretty good out to about 18.

Yea. Like I am slightly leaning Saul’s team, but statements like that are just so far off it sways me back the other direction.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Yea. Like I am slightly leaning Saul’s team, but statements like that are just so far off it sways me back the other direction.

"So far off?" No disrespect, but please feel free to describe to me how Kenny defends Reeves from the three spot. Kenny is the better player. I'm totally with you on that. 100 percent. But isn't this is a real matchup issue? We're not talking pure talent. We're talking matchups. I'm not trying to sell people a lemon here. I'm just stating that there's a matchup issue if you have Kenny Walker chasing Antonio Reeves off screens for 30 minutes.

Just so we're clear, you would play Kenny Walker at the three and let him defend Antonio Reeves all game?

 

[Cowtown Cat]

And neither one could shoot or would shoot in college. Kenny played during a time when the three point line was being implemented, but if they had the three point line in his tenure, his eventual NBA shooting shows us what he would have been in college: a 21% three point shooter.

Antoine Walker went on to be a decent NBA three point shooter, but at Kentucky he was pretty marginal. He was a career 25% three point shooter in two seasons at UK.

Together, they provide no spacing from the forward spots, and even less when one considers that Noel can't make a jump shot.

Yeah I never understood why so many posters felt like his team was so much better than mine and that my team was vastly inferior. No disrespect to Draft Cat at all. I didn’t have time to defend my squad lol I didn’t have as many good 3 point shooters as you do, but damn. You’d think I had some kinda scrub team.

Hell, I had 2 of the top 4 scorers in school history. Not to mention, the number 1 in Dan Issel. He set the scoring record here in only 3 seasons. Lmao

 

[drcats2013]

"So far off?" No disrespect, but please feel free to describe to me how Kenny defends Reeves from the three spot. Kenny is the better player. I'm totally with you on that. 100 percent. But isn't this is a real matchup issue? We're not talking pure talent. We're talking matchups. I'm not trying to sell people a lemon here. I'm just stating that there's a matchup issue if you have Kenny Walker chasing Antonio Reeves off screens for 30 minutes.

Just so we're clear, you would play Kenny Walker at the three and let him defend Antonio Reeves all game?

You stated Walker=Reeves. That’s just not so. Sure it’s a bad matchup for Walker defensively, but it’s even worse for reeves to guard him on the other end

 

[JonathanW]

"So far off?" No disrespect, but please feel free to describe to me how Kenny defends Reeves from the three spot. Kenny is the better player. I'm totally with you on that. 100 percent. But isn't this is a real matchup issue? We're not talking pure talent. We're talking matchups. I'm not trying to sell people a lemon here. I'm just stating that there's a matchup issue if you have Kenny Walker chasing Antonio Reeves off screens for 30 minutes.

Just so we're clear, you would play Kenny Walker at the three and let him defend Antonio Reeves all game?

Kenny had the quickness to not get blown by by Reeves. And with his vertical he would give Reeves trouble getting his shot off. Reeves floater became deadly, but Sky would block some of those too. But likewise, how would Reeves dream of guarding Kenny! He wouldn't. Front him and they lob over (no pass to high for him). Kenny too strong for Reeves to play behind him. And yes, Kenny had a good jumper 15-18' out, but definitely not a 3pt shot.

BTW, before you complain, I picked your team (SOS) to win. For me, the deciding factor was the gap between Wall & Turner was bigger than any other positional gap. This one is super close IMO!
The other F4 game is even closer (coin-toss).

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

You stated Walker=Reeves. That’s just not so. Sure it’s a bad matchup for Walker defensively, but it’s even worse for reeves to guard him on the other end

But I'm looking at matchups, not one-on-one basketball games. If you post Kenny Walker on Reeves, your spacing becomes even more limited because now you've got a non shooter in Noel at center and another non shooter in Antoine Walker at the four.

So in terms of matchups, you're going to give up as much as you get with Kenny Walker guardian Reeves all game on the wing.

 

[drcats2013]

Kenny had the quickness to not get blown by by Reeves. And with his vertical he would give Reeves trouble getting his shot off. Reeves floater became deadly, but Sky would block some of those too. But likewise, how would Reeves dream of guarding Kenny! He wouldn't. Front him and they lob over (no pass to high for him). Kenny too strong for Reeves to play behind him. And yes, Kenny had a good jumper 15-18' out, but definitely not a 3pt shot.

BTW, before you complain, I picked your team (SOS) to win. For me, the deciding factor was the gap between Wall & Turner was bigger than any other positional gap. This one is super close IMO!
The other F4 game is even closer (coin-toss).

Well stated. Exactly what I’m saying.

 

[LukaszObrzut]

Dang, great matchup. I like SoS’s guards better but Draftcat’s forwards better. Then you’ve got offense vs defense at the 5. Both benches are very comparable. I had to go with SoS though because quite simply, he stacked with shooters. 3 of his 5 starters and everyone on his bench can hit an outside shot. Draft really only has one starter and 3 bench players that can reliably hit from outside. His team has a ton going for them and in a series of 10, I bet they take 3 or 4. But if I gotta go with one game, SoS takes it.

I would not say he’s stacked with shooters per se but compared to opponent he has clear advantage there.

I come back to Reeves playing the 3. In this contest, my mind is made up he’s just not the player to fit that. But if Mashburn cannot beat him in Kentucky jersey, Sky Walker case is even harder.

Noel was one of my favorite Cats. I’m just not sure how team isn’t going to pack it in and force the worst shot in the game aka the Keion Brooks specials.

 

[JonathanW]

I would not say he’s stacked with shooters per se but compared to opponent he has clear advantage there.

I come back to Reeves playing the 3. In this contest, my mind is made up he’s just not the player to fit that. But if Mashburn cannot beat him in Kentucky jersey, Sky Walker case is even harder.

Noel was one of my favorite Cats. I’m just not sure how team isn’t going to pack it in and force the worst shot in the game aka the Keion Brooks specials.

Mashburn would have schooled Reeves (2nd best offensive player in school history vs one of our worst defenders)!!! We are talking Wake Forest Sweet-16 type schooled. My only guess is that your backcourt wasn't deep enough after Murray & Rondo in that matchup. But I picked you to win that one (I think).

 

[LukaszObrzut]

Mashburn would have schooled Reeves (2nd best offensive player in school history vs one of our worst defenders)!!! We are talking Wake Forest Sweet-16 type schooled. My only guess is that your backcourt wasn't deep enough after Murray & Rondo in that matchup. But I picked you to win that one (I think).

I agree, and not to hijack the thread but I feel like it’s a weakness not being brought out. Yes, sure play Reeves at the 3- but he’s not a robot- and if he’s not hitting shots- he’s certainly not the size to compete at the 3 spot at a championship level, imo.

Also Murray & Rondo is all that’s needed- people forget how important it is to have actually guards who can alleviate pressure off the point guard and handle it- sorta in a way that Maxey and Quickley could be while playing together.

 

[DraftCat]

I blame the drafters for seriously letting a Wall/Cousin combo get that much shooting.

You'd have to know that letting a drafter get two modern superstar freshman get the pieces that they would have needed in real life.... pretty much the draft was over after that.

i'd have to go back and look how it played out but yea tough beating the voters on this.

 

[drcats2013]

I blame the drafters for seriously letting a Wall/Cousin combo get that much shooting.

You'd have to know that letting a drafter get two modern superstar freshman get the pieces that they would have needed in real life.... pretty much the draft was over after that.

i'd have to go back and look how it played out but yea tough beating the voters on this.

The one and dones are carrying the votes. Recency bias. Saul did a great job drafting with that in mind, and I regret I took older guys like Bowie and Goose that don’t get as much love as they should

 

[storm1507]

The one and dones are carrying the votes. Recency bias. Saul did a great job drafting with that in mind, and I regret I took older guys like Bowie and Goose that don’t get as much love as they should

Win or lose don't regret that at all.

I thought Cousins was the biggest steal of the draft (not counting the undervalued older guys) at 16/17 or whatever he was. Without him falling into SOS's lap it would be a different ballgame IMO.

 

[JonathanW]

The one and dones are carrying the votes. Recency bias. Saul did a great job drafting with that in mind, and I regret I took older guys like Bowie and Goose that don’t get as much love as they should

I do think there is some recency bias. Although what hurts Bowie, is do you have the pre-injury Bowie or the post-injury Bowie or an average of those 2.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

The one and dones are carrying the votes. Recency bias. Saul did a great job drafting with that in mind, and I regret I took older guys like Bowie and Goose that don’t get as much love as they should

Or...going out on a limb here...maybe Wall and Cousins are historically elite players by any metric (and positionally at or near the top of the pyramid at their respective positions) and surrounding them with elite shooters was a good strategy. Also, everyone on the this board knows Givens and Bowie. I think a ton of folks will vote for you if you make it to the finals. I think your roster is loaded and you have a great shot of winning the whole thing.