That can actually be true. But also part of the problem. The nba and ncaa are two different games.
ESPN Article on UK's Draft Prospects
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That can actually be true. But also part of the problem. The nba and ncaa are two different games.
No, I accurately quoted Pat Riley who is among many who have said Kentucky players come into the NBA better prepared than others. It's all right there in my post for those who can read.
The tweet in the OP quoted an "expert" saying Kentucky's system and offense doesn't prepare players for the NBA. I cited Pat Riley's observations and other evidence that refutes that claim. It isn't more complicated than that. Not sure why that is hard to understand.
Many many on this board have been saying the exact same thing for a long while.
I’ve never read an article that I agree & disagreed with so much.
Highly Agree: The offense that Cal runs is archaic especially when you compare it to what the NBA does with shooters spreading the floor.
Highly Disagree: I don’t think the offense has held Boston back. When you can’t make shots or finish at the rim I’m not sure what offense is going to help that. Cal continues to give him every chance in the world to succeed...at this point it’s on him.
If Cal doesn’t change his offense and quick it’s going to be widely used against him in recruiting. You can point to all the NBA players from UK all you want but the truth is most don’t truly excel until they get into the NBA.
Highly Agree: The offense that Cal runs is archaic especially when you compare it to what the NBA does with shooters spreading the floor.
Highly Disagree: I don’t think the offense has held Boston back. When you can’t make shots or finish at the rim I’m not sure what offense is going to help that. Cal continues to give him every chance in the world to succeed...at this point it’s on him.
If Cal doesn’t change his offense and quick it’s going to be widely used against him in recruiting. You can point to all the NBA players from UK all you want but the truth is most don’t truly excel until they get into the NBA.
His offense is archaic, there is no denying that compared to what the NBA runs. That being said I do think he does a good job preparing kids for the NBA off the court and individual development. He certainly gives his 5 stars an abundance of playing time and freedom to miss shots and make mistakes.
Great question and something I have thought a lot about. It just doesn’t make sense.
Cal does a great job getting most guys mentally and physically ready for the rigors of the NBA as well as a team/unselfish mindset. I think that is what Riley refers to. But also to me the top guys the past 3-4 years just aren't as bought in to their one year of CBB as 10 years or so ago.
I'm not expert enough to say, if by "modern" offense you mean NBA offenses in vogue today. That's why my response didn't stray close to that. But it's faulty logic to say that "Cal's offense is hurting BJ Boston's draft prospects." How do we know it's faulty logic? The very recent statements to the contrary by top experts like Riley who say Kentucky players are MORE prepared than others, and the success of Kentucky players on entering the NBA, which proves they are prepared. That's all I said in my post.
ManitouDan, my question is (not to you in particular, but to anybody) why does it suck? I get that as a fan we don't have to know why things aren't going the way we want or think they should. Fans want to win, and if the team is not winning enough, then all fans should be expected to say is that something needs to be changed and it's on the coaches to figure it out.
But I would be interested to hear specifically what fellow posters think is wrong with the offense. Personally, I suspect the offensive system is not the real underlying problem, and doubt that it's that different from what's being employed at most every other top college basketball program. My belief is that the biggest issue is, and always has been, overreliance on freshmen - who, as a general and relative proposition, can't shoot and are not efficient at running any offensive system because of the lack of experience and comfortableness with the college game. Of course, if I'm right that doesn't let Calipari off the hook, because roster construction is his responsibility. Again, just curious to hear some good discussion on this, not start an argument.
He runs a lot of iso and pick n roll. The nba also does a lot of that.
This is absolutely a shot from CAA and co who no doubt have close ties to Boston via LeBron and Leon Rose (now with the Knicks, formerly with CAA).
It's complete nonsense for the reasons you listed. Ky is the best by far at showcasing and developing talent. It isn't even close. If anything, UK runs the closest thing to an nba type offense of anyone in college imo
Didn't open the link, but have always disliked Givony and his hard-on for Cal. He is on Goodman's level when it comes to criticizing Cal and/or his players during the draft process.
One part of the article was right, his lack of physical strength. I think a few more pounds on him would go a long way with him.
there is a lot of great athletes who are not good basketball players.
comes down to something called skills.
and that requires development through hard work
I mean, no we don't. The NBA is 3 pointer first, we are the opposite. Maybe you could say that 10 years ago, but now no.
Guys like Tyler and IQ flourish because they came to uk. The list is a mile long. If Boston can't flourish, it's on him.
I think he will soon. He's now just starting to give in to the process. Cal has to completely tear down high school mentality, before he can rebuild you. I just hope Boston continues to give in and absorb
It's amazing how Cal fans believe that Cal is the reason why UK kids are showing out in the NBA.
Most of those dudes were damn good before they came to UK, struggled while at UK, then exploded when they got to the NBA. Booker, Bam, Herro, even Wenyen.
These players are playing and working out with NBA veterans and being coached by NBA coaches in free flowing offenses with refs that don't call every touch.
Anyone that thinks Cal's offense isn't outdated simply doesn't know or understand what they are looking at. It's awful and everyone that comes here struggles with it. Ulis, Fox, Murray, Wall and a few others were able to figure it out, but it takes legit transcendent players to consistently beat their man off the bounce, then beat whatever help defenders are coming. It's all iso and it requires great players to make it work.
He's been trying to get Jackson to beat his man from 15' out on the baseline. Like what? Cousins would struggle with that. Cal ran that play on 5 straight possessions, then another two later on. He needs help. Maybe enough people will get in his ear and he'll do something about it.
Having said all that, Cal's offense isn't what's causing Boston to struggle. He's missing wide open shots and he's the one that is deciding to settle for jump shots. He has the tools needed to dominate at the rim off the bounce, but he's not doing it, because it's hard.
Most of those dudes were damn good before they came to UK, struggled while at UK, then exploded when they got to the NBA. Booker, Bam, Herro, even Wenyen.
These players are playing and working out with NBA veterans and being coached by NBA coaches in free flowing offenses with refs that don't call every touch.
Anyone that thinks Cal's offense isn't outdated simply doesn't know or understand what they are looking at. It's awful and everyone that comes here struggles with it. Ulis, Fox, Murray, Wall and a few others were able to figure it out, but it takes legit transcendent players to consistently beat their man off the bounce, then beat whatever help defenders are coming. It's all iso and it requires great players to make it work.
He's been trying to get Jackson to beat his man from 15' out on the baseline. Like what? Cousins would struggle with that. Cal ran that play on 5 straight possessions, then another two later on. He needs help. Maybe enough people will get in his ear and he'll do something about it.
Having said all that, Cal's offense isn't what's causing Boston to struggle. He's missing wide open shots and he's the one that is deciding to settle for jump shots. He has the tools needed to dominate at the rim off the bounce, but he's not doing it, because it's hard.
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Cal fanboys....
If anyone here thinks AD actually improved his game because of Calipari you’re in a dream state. His game improved and opened up once he left. Same can be said for many players.
Riley is referring to how media savvy and mentally strong players are coming out of Kentucky. Cal does prepare well for the NBA as far as what to expect. His coaching has little to nothing to do with that.
Cal’s offense is laughable, and I only use that word because it is. He has to play a dumbed down style of play that coach K’s secretary could figure out how to stop because he’s got AAU kids out there who don’t have the time to learn anything more complicated. Just getting them into shape takes half the time.
If you’re actually defending Calipari’s system, as far as to support and make excuses for his offense, then you might want to just follow him when he leaves because you’re totally in man crush land. Nobody who has any credibility in this sport would suggest that.
If anyone here thinks AD actually improved his game because of Calipari you’re in a dream state. His game improved and opened up once he left. Same can be said for many players.
Riley is referring to how media savvy and mentally strong players are coming out of Kentucky. Cal does prepare well for the NBA as far as what to expect. His coaching has little to nothing to do with that.
Cal’s offense is laughable, and I only use that word because it is. He has to play a dumbed down style of play that coach K’s secretary could figure out how to stop because he’s got AAU kids out there who don’t have the time to learn anything more complicated. Just getting them into shape takes half the time.
If you’re actually defending Calipari’s system, as far as to support and make excuses for his offense, then you might want to just follow him when he leaves because you’re totally in man crush land. Nobody who has any credibility in this sport would suggest that.
Not trying to be rude or confrontational but what IS Coach Calipari’s offense? I am a Kansas Fan but watch as much UK basketball as I can.
I mean KU has the high low when we have the players (which we currently do not) or lots of ball screens for shooters or slip screens for bigs (again, not so much this year. I honestly think we have less than five successful lobs this season).
UK offense seems a lot like ASU ball. I’m willing to be wrong and again, not trolling. Honestly asking.
I mean KU has the high low when we have the players (which we currently do not) or lots of ball screens for shooters or slip screens for bigs (again, not so much this year. I honestly think we have less than five successful lobs this season).
UK offense seems a lot like ASU ball. I’m willing to be wrong and again, not trolling. Honestly asking.
not enough overall player or ball movement. Over reliance on ” be better than your man “ ie one on one .. the sets we do run are rarely aimed at freeing a three point shooter - most of looks come off drives and collapses .. no OOBs plays . The entire thing is entirely simplistic . Pick n roll .. pick n pop .. weave . Not much screening away from the ball at all. How many lobs for dunks we had this year ...? And lastly and very much most importantly , the deeper the tourney goes , the tighter the reigns of running and three pt shooting . And the slower rate of play .
It's all iso with some screen and roll and bigs trying to score via back to the basket.
It requires a pg that can beat his man off the bounce and score or feed the post.
There aren't many high screens for shooters.
When I watch teams like KU and duke play, I am jealous at the offense I see. The 3 ball is used often and well. I wish we did that. Honestly, I don't understand how both those programs don't win more titles.
The good thing about Cals offense holding players back is they get drafted later in the draft, but usually to a contender. Use Herro to Miami as an example. The Bad news is it cost Tyler some money and Kentucky Fans getting to see a player at his best and possibly some wins.
I’ll try to point out a little of what I understand – although I’m just going on what I have seen and read, not pretending to be a guru:
At UK Calipari has always used some sort of motion offense. He has utilized different sets and actions – and even different principles of motion – over the years. The dribble-drive motion he used more early at UK is a guard-oriented 4-out offense that features spreading the floor and dribble-penetration to the rim for lay-ups or kick-out 3-point shots. Without a couple of good shooters this one has to rely heavily on the PGs ability to get into the lane.
Like the NBA, Calipari apparently wants to create mismatches, and they will move the ball until someone can attack. The primary goal is a lay-up or getting fouled, or if it’s a miss the Bigs come in and try to dunk the miss. He has ran what some coaches call a “1-4 flat,” where the two Bigs come up to the elbow extended on each side of the lane, and the guards cross to catch the ball. Then the Big on the strong side drops to post on the block and – if you have a Bam or Karl Towns or Julius Randle - opponents have to double down on the block to keep the Big from scoring, then the Big throws the ball back out after the double down.
I think Calipari is now using a lot more ball screens (and ghost screens) and cutting, while still trying to drive to varying degree based on personnel. To me it looks like he has always relied more on movement than spacing or even passing – and the movement is more localized on one side of the floor between two players (the ole 2-man game), rather than from side-to-side.
By contrast, what we just saw with Vanderbilt is all stationary spacing and passing with very little movement except the person with the ball drives it with the primary intent to get defenders collapsing so they can kick it out more so than even getting the lay-up. While Bill Self reportedly runs a 3-out-2-in motion offense with a heavy reliance on high/low sets - but you would know that better than me.
On the other hand, Steve Kerr (Golden State), Popovich (Spurs), and Jay Wright (Villanova) all use the same basic offense as Calipari – although better, more experienced personnel will certainly make a difference. The Spurs add more backscreens, but Golden State uses less sets and actions than anybody, and Villanova doesn’t screen or drive as much.
And this is the problem with kids who “have” to be OAD. He’s putting so much pressure on himself to be great and show what he can do and it’s affecting his confidence and his mentality towards the team aspects of the game.
I think he declared the other night after the first possession going 1 on 4 when his shot from under the goal ended up closer to the PA than the rim. I thought that took balls and was creative.
When a coach says he doesn’t run a play for a 3 point shot then yes his offense is archaic. Those are Cals words. Can we at least agree that Cals baseline out of bounds plays are archaic?
Here are some more details from the ESPN article. Includes info on Clarke and Jackson
That is one major problem with the program these days. To many Coach included more worried about having draft picks than winning basketball games.
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