Did Pope stumble into the best route to win?

[Louis_Skunt]

Throwing a team together of transfers from podunk schools seems much better than recruiting high school kids.

If our 3 PG's weren't injured, we all know our record would be different.

Unless the kid is Anthony Davis, John Wall, or a Cooper Flagg....it seems obvious that taking top transfers is much more valuable than targeting top 25 recruits.

I see everyone hoping for Nate Ament, and my heart is hoping he chooses UK. But im thinking there's going to be 30 transfers that'll be more valuable.

 

[MonsterMash79]

Throwing a team together of transfers from podunk schools seems much better than recruiting high school kids.

If our 3 PG's weren't injured, we all know our record would be different.

Unless the kid is Anthony Davis, John Wall, or a Cooper Flagg....it seems obvious that taking top transfers is much more valuable than targeting top 25 recruits.

I see everyone hoping for Nate Ament, and my heart is hoping he chooses UK. But im thinking there's going to be 30 transfers that'll be more valuable.

This👆

 

[Wonky]

Pope and staff didn’t stumble into anything. People seem to think that because of how hastily the team had to be constructed. But every roster addition was carefully calculated. Pope has said that building a team that actually fits together is an art, and one that he really enjoys.

Now if your question is simply “is this the formula?”, then I think the answer is a resounding yes. When 100% healthy, we are a national championship caliber team. That is absolutely insane considering we were built in six weeks, and it shows that Pope ain’t f**ing around. He wants to win a title.

 

[ukcatz12]

The best way to win will be different for each coach. Pope's won in this way because he's a good enough coach to game plan around talent discrepancies, and to do that you require guys who buy in to the system and can gel together. This group of guys he got can do that.

If it's assumed that high talent guys won't buy in, then Pope's way is the best way to win for him as a coach. But if Pope can find some high talent guys who will buy into his system and be a true team player, then he'd probably be more successful with a team like that because it would be a well oiled machine that works well together.

The trick for Pope will constantly be trying to thread the needle between talent and the willingness to be a team guy who buys in to the system.

 

[Ron Mehico]

Pope himself said his formula is 3 good HS recruits, 3/4 portal guys, all the rest returning players. That sounds pretty much perfect to me tbh. The HS players are a bit of a gamble and are very high maintenance imo

 

[LineSkiCat14]

I mean, you have to sort of ask yourself that question. I'm not sure how this worked out so well. It's going to be very interesting to see if this is really just Pope's system that works so well, and makes other players look so much better.. or, if this happened to be sort of like Hurley's Uconn title teams, int hat we just got the right pieces around us.

Hard to tell so early.

 

[bballcat4]

Top young talent (NBA caliber) combined very good older players is the ticket for separating yourself from the pack. There’s a reason Pope wanted Wilson and Ament.

Having the best of the next tier recruit that sticks around a few years will also make foundation for excellent team. (I think Lewis may be this type of multi year cornerstone piece.)

The good news is that Pope will have a good mixture that will not force us to DEPEND on the inevitable rollercoaster ride that comes with Freshmen. But, there’s a reason Pope is going hard after Ament. We’ll survive without him, but we’ll be better with him.

 

[Smashcat]

I see everyone hoping for Nate Ament, and my heart is hoping he chooses UK. But im thinking there's going to be 30 transfers that'll be more valuable.

30? No. But certainly several that could be.

 

[catfan220]

Throwing a team together of transfers from podunk schools seems much better than recruiting high school kids.

If our 3 PG's weren't injured, we all know our record would be different.

Unless the kid is Anthony Davis, John Wall, or a Cooper Flagg....it seems obvious that taking top transfers is much more valuable than targeting top 25 recruits.

I see everyone hoping for Nate Ament, and my heart is hoping he chooses UK. But im thinking there's going to be 30 transfers that'll be more valuable.

I used to wonder if a mid-major all-star team could win a title, I think in a way the portal has given us a chance to test that hypothesis. I hope UK can become a destination for transfers (I prefer transfers with multiple years of eligibility but sometimes an exception would be worth it), with 2-3 freshmen sprinkled in that are either instant impact or projects.

 

[ImTheVillageIdiot]

I feel like the 2022 team showed me that the portal was the way to go with a OAD or two sprinkled in. That team, until injuries, was absolutely destroying teams (including the national champs on the road). The entire team was basically transfers except for TyTy. I’m still convinced that team could have potentially made a final four if not for bad luck. This team only confirms what I feel —- portal guys, if the correct fits are chosen —- can absolutely win you big games in CBB.

 

[katwest]

Good point, if we don't get Ament, I'd say that will be the way Pope finishes out the roster. I don't think there are many 6 foot 8 two-hundred-and-forty-pound high school seniors out there, and we need a couple players that size in this conference going forward. Experienced veterans with what we already have coming back along with the three freshmen looks like that's the way to go forward right now.

 

[catfan220]

The best way to win will be different for each coach. Pope's won in this way because he's a good enough coach to game plan around talent discrepancies, and to do that you require guys who buy in to the system and can gel together. This group of guys he got can do that.

If it's assumed that high talent guys won't buy in, then Pope's way is the best way to win for him as a coach. But if Pope can find some high talent guys who will buy into his system and be a true team player, then he'd probably be more successful with a team like that because it would be a well oiled machine that works well together.

The trick for Pope will constantly be trying to thread the needle between talent and the willingness to be a team guy who buys in to the system.

I think whether a guy is willing to "buy in" has much more to do with the individual character of the player than whether they're a freshman or senior. It's the "MKG and AD took the 4th and 5th most shots" thing. Or take Stephon Castle at UConn last year, he wasn't the featured player on that team even though he would end up being the highest draft pick, and appears to be a budding NBA star. On the other hand, a much more middling talent like Cam'ron Fletcher was a problem at UK as a freshman, and now he's transferred three times and has had issues everywhere he's been.

On the other hand you can find guys who mature over the course of their college career. Deandre Liggins was considered a bit of a problem child when he enrolled at UK, and by the time he left his junior year he was a role model.

 

[ImTheVillageIdiot]

Good point, if we don't get Ament, I'd say that will be the way Pope finishes out the roster. I don't think there are many 6 foot 8 two-hundred-and-forty-pound high school seniors out there, and we need a couple of them in this league going forward. Experienced veterans with what we already have coming back along with the three freshmen looks like that's the way to go forward right now.

Well there’s going to be even less incoming freshman that size

 

[chroix]

Stumble implies it was accidental. I’m pretty sure his formula is what most of this board has been screaming for for at least five years now.

 

[Farsight]

But we still lost to Ohio State with a full team.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

We were full strength for Clemson (not a bad loss, but we looked awful), Ohio St, and UGA. Two of those are pretty bad losses, if you consider yourself "championship caliber". I say all of that to say, no, this isn't the philosophy to building a roster. I think what Pope (and others in this thread) said is correct. Gimmie 2-3 ELITE level frosh, 2-3 ELITE transfers (the best of the G5 guys basically), and then your returnees. That's the secret sauce, IMHO.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

I still would really like at least one NBA-level prospect who can provide offense. A guy who can score on all 3-levels and get his shot mostly whenever he wants. Oweh has been that at times, so has Jrob.. but I'd like to have someone maybe one level higher. Either that, or a similarly talented big to anchor the paint.

Give me that with everything we have no, and thats a top5 team all year.

 

[bucsrule8872]

But we still lost to Ohio State with a full team.

Nope. Kriisa was out.

Nice try, though. Keep trolling.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

We were full strength for Clemson (not a bad loss, but we looked awful), Ohio St, and UGA. Two of those are pretty bad losses, if you consider yourself "championship caliber". I say all of that to say, no, this isn't the philosophy to building a roster. I think what Pope (and others in this thread) said is correct. Gimmie 2-3 ELITE level frosh, 2-3 ELITE transfers (the best of the G5 guys basically), and then your returnees. That's the secret sauce, IMHO.

I'm willing to sort of chalk those up to everyone being still pretty brand new to Kentucky. The coach, the entire team, and the players with each other. But also, teams are going to drop a game, especially if we aren't being helped by the officials. I think Pope with another year under his belt, and some of these guys returning, probably wins 1 or 2 of those Clemson/OSU/UGA games.

Also, UGA did shoot 38 free throws to our 19. No other team was winning that game

 

[JonathanW]

I feel like the 2022 team showed me that the portal was the way to go with a OAD or two sprinkled in. That team, until injuries, was absolutely destroying teams (including the national champs on the road). The entire team was basically transfers except for TyTy. I’m still convinced that team could have potentially made a final four if not for bad luck. This team only confirms what I feel —- portal guys, if the correct fits are chosen —- can absolutely win you big games in CBB.

That team was performing as one of the 2 best teams in the country until injuries (Tyty and later Grady, even though Grady played through them, he wasn't the same player).

 

[Louis_Skunt]

Stumble implies it was accidental. I’m pretty sure his formula is what most of this board has been screaming for for at least five years now.

It was accidental. He didn't want a team full of transfers, but he was forced due to the timing of the hire. Taking star players from little schools worked out better than we thought, and better than he thought.

 

[Louis_Skunt]

But we still lost to Ohio State with a full team.

It's basketball my friend. The ball doesn't bounce the same every night. Did Jordan miss free throws?

 

[bucsrule8872]

That team was performing as one of the 2 best teams in the country until injuries (Tyty and later Grady, even though Grady played through them, he wasn't the same player).

Plus Fredrick went down before we ever started playing, IIRC.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

I'm willing to sort of chalk those up to everyone being still pretty brand new to Kentucky. The coach, the entire team, and the players with each other. But also, teams are going to drop a game, especially if we aren't being helped by the officials. I think Pope with another year under his belt, and some of these guys returning, probably wins 1 or 2 of those Clemson/OSU/UGA games.

Also, UGA did shoot 38 free throws to our 19. No other team was winning that game

My argument is more this isn't the way to build a title contender and not that we should've won those games.

UGA drove it straight down our throat and we shot a bunch of jumpers. The disparity is real, but there's a reason most teams shoot more FTs than us, and (contrary to popular belief around here) it's not some conspiracy theory on how the refs/conf hate UK.

 

[aceman509]

The best formula to win, by far, is to maximize returning production. The issue is it is nearly impossible to plan for that, you have to get pretty lucky.

But look at Auburn and Alabama. Auburn returned 57% of their minutes and 58% of their scoring from last year, which includes 5 of their top 8 rotation players. The 3 guys they lost they replaced with a stud freshman and stud portal guy, and trimmed the main rotation down to just 7.

Alabama returned 51% of their minutes and 54% of their scoring from last year, including 3 of their top 7 guys. They replaced the 4 they lost with 3 stud portal guys, a stud freshman, and have their rotation expanded by giving 2 returning guys more minutes and a new freshman some decent minutes.


So really it is about the best way to maximize returners, and then plugging in a small number of gaps with transfer guys or a stud freshman. If you can get a sophomore or junior transfer that is ideal, so that they can return in the future (like Oweh)

 

[wkycatfan]

I do think there is a correlation between winning in March and older players. The McDonald's freshmen oftentimes have their primary focus on the NBA draft by this time, IMO. At a minimum, you need a mix IMO, but the older players really seem to focus in March.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

Nope. Kriisa was out.

Nice try, though. Keep trolling.

Troll or not, Kriisa being out isn't a difference maker with this team. And he sure as hell wasn't making a difference in THAT game.

 

[chroix]

It was accidental. He didn't want a team full of transfers, but he was forced due to the timing of the hire. Taking star players from little schools worked out better than we thought, and better than he thought.

But he’s not sticking with that formula so I don’t think it’s proving what you think it is. Now that he has his choice he’s going with what everyone seems to agree is the best approach.

Just to argue your point, what do you do when there aren’t enough good players available in the portal? Or do you think that there is always this same level of talent available?

 

[TFCats11]

Throwing a team together of transfers from podunk schools seems much better than recruiting high school kids.

If our 3 PG's weren't injured, we all know our record would be different.

Unless the kid is Anthony Davis, John Wall, or a Cooper Flagg....it seems obvious that taking top transfers is much more valuable than targeting top 25 recruits.

I see everyone hoping for Nate Ament, and my heart is hoping he chooses UK. But im thinking there's going to be 30 transfers that'll be more valuable.

All day, every day, and I wouldn’t think twice😁

 

[KYFOSSIL]

We were full strength for Clemson (not a bad loss, but we looked awful), Ohio St, and UGA. Two of those are pretty bad losses, if you consider yourself "championship caliber". I say all of that to say, no, this isn't the philosophy to building a roster. I think what Pope (and others in this thread) said is correct. Gimmie 2-3 ELITE level frosh, 2-3 ELITE transfers (the best of the G5 guys basically), and then your returnees. That's the secret sauce, IMHO.

No one but you think theses were pretty bad losses. Clemson is a high caliber team, Georgia a just beat Florida and O believe OHS was still a quad 1 game. Two games were road games

 

[chroix]

But also, teams are going to drop a game,

The way some people post here you’d think there were a couple of undefeated teams every year instead of only seven times in history and not since the 70s.

 

[ImTheVillageIdiot]

The way some people post here you’d think there were a couple of undefeated teams every year instead of only seven times in history and not since the 70s.

Bingo. That’s why I call them knuckleheads— those type of people don’t speak for me. I trust Pope and I trust the process.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

No one but you think theses were pretty bad losses. Clemson is a high caliber team, Georgia a just beat Florida and O believe OHS was still a quad 1 game. Two games were road games

Reading comprehension issues? I said Clemson wasn't a bad loss in the post. I did, however, say we looked awful. And we did. We got RAKED on a neutral court against a net 35 tOSU team. I think ANYONE would argue that's a game we should've won. Maybe "bad loss" is semantic, but that's a game we should've won. Same with UGA, only it was at UGA. The quad thing wears me out. There are 5 quads. 3-5 are just different levels of AWFUL teams. Btw, I'd bet Florida would tell you they should've beaten UGA as well.

 

[Eagles_Ball]

Bingo. That’s why I call them knuckleheads— those type of people don’t speak for me. I trust Pope and I trust the process.

I agree with that last sentence. I think his stated views on roster building are spot on. I'm curious to see what next year's roster looks like and if he's able to piece it all together that way. Lord knows, with the portal and how it works now, it's certainly easier said than done.

 

[know1]

He didn't "stumble" into it. But beyond that I agree with the original post completely. Unless the high school recruit is physically mature beyond their years or essentially a basketball prodigy, then there isn't a compelling reason to take them or certainly pay them much. You recruit one or two really good players and one or two guys that you think there's a reasonable chance they'd stay their full careers and the rest should be proven entities from the portal.

 

[catlogic15]

I still would really like at least one NBA-level prospect who can provide offense. A guy who can score on all 3-levels and get his shot mostly whenever he wants. Oweh has been that at times, so has Jrob.. but I'd like to have someone maybe one level higher. Either that, or a similarly talented big to anchor the paint.

Give me that with everything we have no, and thats a top5 team all year.

Nice idea but the problem with wanting an NBA-level prospect is they’ll most likely be playing in the NBA.

 

[G-PIP]

Good point, if we don't get Ament, I'd say that will be the way Pope finishes out the roster. I don't think there are many 6 foot 8 two-hundred-and-forty-pound high school seniors out there, and we need a couple players that size in this conference going forward. Experienced veterans with what we already have coming back along with the three freshmen looks like that's the way to go forward right now.

Check out Najai Hines. He's a high school Big from NJ that I think is a very interesting option for UK to consider going after (other top programs already are). Before this year folks thought he was going to play high Div. I football as a TE, and so he wasn't thought of much in terms of CBB. But he decided that he wants to play basketball instead and has blown up on the radar very late.

 

[G-PIP]

The best way to win will be different for each coach. Pope's won in this way because he's a good enough coach to game plan around talent discrepancies, and to do that you require guys who buy in to the system and can gel together. This group of guys he got can do that.

If it's assumed that high talent guys won't buy in, then Pope's way is the best way to win for him as a coach. But if Pope can find some high talent guys who will buy into his system and be a true team player, then he'd probably be more successful with a team like that because it would be a well oiled machine that works well together.

The trick for Pope will constantly be trying to thread the needle between talent and the willingness to be a team guy who buys in to the system.

The fit matters, of course. 5 guys (or maybe even just 2) that do basically the same thing doesn’t seem to work well. But assuming the fit is there, then you need the best players you can get. Talent is irrelevant unless that talent has ripened into production greater than a lesser talented player you could have instead. Some 8th grader may have the most “talent” in the country, but he wouldn’t be playable at UK next season. Likewise a 5-star high school senior may have all kinds of talent but not be nearly as productive and impactful in regard to winning CBB games in his freshman season as a much older more developed portal transfer from Div. II might be.

Basically, the best of the best for a college season are the college All-American or All-Conference players (not who is projected on NBA draft boards). Many years a freshman or two may make those lists and would therefore be better than any other player UK could have gotten. But if a 5-star freshman is not on those lists, and doesn’t stay more than 1-year, then his value and the team's expenditure of NIL funds on him is questionable at best – UNLESS you could not have obtained the same production from the portal for less.