Dawson and Game Day

[footballfanatic77]

Well actually he called the play 85 percent of the time so I'll take that as a yes he called the plays

It's semantics but he didn't actually call the plays he suggested the plays to be called and then Holgorsen decided what play to call and called it. Holgorsen agreed with Dawson about 85 percent of a time so I'd take that to mean they are both going to run Air Raid offenses.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

That would be difficult, I posted it in one of my very first posts on the site.

You attempt to lecture me about truth and evidence and then post this? If you think this board is all about you, I can understand how you would get that wrong too. I read about Stoops screwing up by not naming a QB, about Stoops leaving for Iowa, and about how Dawson was untested because he had not called a game before you told me directly you were a Vol fan as you adamantly defended UT.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

If Holgerson let fans on the Internet suggest plays and he went with 85% of the fans' suggestions, the media would say Holgerson was letting fans call WVU's plays and because the fans' calls were not utilized 15% of the time, Fanatic would refute that headline.

By Fanatic's perspective, Congress does not pass laws, the Executive does, because he/she has the power to Veto.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Well actually he called the play 85 percent of the time so I'll take that as a yes he called the plays

Exactly. Fanatic knows that.

 

[JHB4UK]

Guys stop arguing with trash and just put them on ignor, honestly I have no idea what the other side of this nonsense debate is saying and am happy that I don't

National People who know football have their eyes on Dawson and think he can do big things as his own OC

 

[footballfanatic77]

You attempt to lecture me about truth and evidence and then post this? If you think this board is all about you, I can understand how you would get that wrong too. I read about Stoops screwing up by not naming a QB, about Stoops leaving for Iowa, and about how Dawson was untested because he had not called a game before you told me directly you were a Vol fan as you adamantly defended UT.

I didn't say that wasn't the first time I told you directly. But since you were active in other discussions I had been a part of and sense I mentioned it in one of my earliest posts, I can only assume that you were aware of it indirectly which led you to attack me so that I told you directly. I said that it was a mistake not to name a starting QB, I believe that's true. You haven't heard me be critical of UT because this isn't a UT board and I'm not sure why you would want to hear it, but here is a corresponding UT mistake: it was stupid to try to redshirt Josh Dobbs 2 years in a row. Everybody including the coaches knew that he should have been behind Justin Worley last year as the backup yet the coaches at first went with a guy who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn in order to try to save his red shirt.

I never once said that Stoops would leave for Iowa, but I think they will be looking for a new coach soon and if so Stoops should be the first name on their list, assuming he is as successful this year as I think he will be. There are lots of reasons for going to Iowa: personal connection, ease of conference, tradition, but ultimately I think Stoops stays even if they call. I said that before too. I didn't say Dawson was untested. I said I think he is going to prove to be a great OC, but that I don't think it's possible to determine his style (beyond Air Raid) until we see it. Using WVU is not a good barometer. And I would also tell you that your law analogy is wrong for one simple reason: Congress passes laws and the President can veto, but Congress can override the veto giving them final say. Dawson couldn't override Holgorsen when Holgorsen's play-calling.

 

[footballfanatic77]

National People who know football have their eyes on Dawson and think he can do big things as his own OC

I agree with this, and for good reason, he has a a lot of experience, his coaching mentors are solid, and he is hungry to prove himself.

 

[RV2]

Well actually he called the play 85 percent of the time so I'll take that as a yes he called the plays

Actually at WVU Dawson called all the plays - to Holgerson, who then accepted or changed it. Best estimates from Dawson that changes occurred 20% or less of the time.

 

[footballfanatic77]

Actually at WVU Dawson called all the plays - to Holgerson, who then accepted or changed it. Best estimates from Dawson that changes occurred 20% or less of the time.

So are we defining "calling the play" as selecting a potential play? I think that where the miscommunication between me and others on this topic is occurring. When I say "calling the play" I have always meant in the traditional sense of making a final decision on a play and calling that play to the QB. But it seems on this board "calling the play" means picking a potential play and suggesting that to the coach.

I'm curious because I do want to use the lingo in the same way the board does.

 

[RV2]

No - I guess you're right. Dawson just sat in the press box like a stump thinking about what the cheerleaders were wearing and what he was going to eat after the game.

 

[footballfanatic77]

No - I guess you're right. Dawson just sat in the press box like a stump thinking about what the cheerleaders were wearing and what he was going to eat after the game.

That's not what I'm saying at all. Nor does it answer my question. I really like Dawson and I'm not trying to attack him, AT ALL. But, I know how I've always defined play calling and how people on here define it seem to be at odds. If that's true I will use the same language on here that others do so that others don't perceive me as belittling or attacking him.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I didn't say that wasn't the first time I told you directly. But since you were active in other discussions I had been a part of and sense I mentioned it in one of my earliest posts, I can only assume that you were aware of it indirectly which led you to attack me so that I told you directly. I said that it was a mistake not to name a starting QB, I believe that's true. You haven't heard me be critical of UT because this isn't a UT board and I'm not sure why you would want to hear it, but here is a corresponding UT mistake: it was stupid to try to redshirt Josh Dobbs 2 years in a row. Everybody including the coaches knew that he should have been behind Justin Worley last year as the backup yet the coaches at first went with a guy who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn in order to try to save his red shirt.

I never once said that Stoops would leave for Iowa, but I think they will be looking for a new coach soon and if so Stoops should be the first name on their list, assuming he is as successful this year as I think he will be. There are lots of reasons for going to Iowa: personal connection, ease of conference, tradition, but ultimately I think Stoops stays even if they call. I said that before too. I didn't say Dawson was untested. I said I think he is going to prove to be a great OC, but that I don't think it's possible to determine his style (beyond Air Raid) until we see it. Using WVU is not a good barometer. And I would also tell you that your law analogy is wrong for one simple reason: Congress passes laws and the President can veto, but Congress can override the veto giving them final say. Dawson couldn't override Holgorsen when Holgorsen's play-calling.

Well, again you are wrong.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I agree with this, and for good reason, he has a a lot of experience, his coaching mentors are solid, and he is hungry to prove himself.

This is far from what you were saying before. Glad you are softening.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

So are we defining "calling the play" as selecting a potential play? I think that where the miscommunication between me and others on this topic is occurring. When I say "calling the play" I have always meant in the traditional sense of making a final decision on a play and calling that play to the QB. But it seems on this board "calling the play" means picking a potential play and suggesting that to the coach.

I'm curious because I do want to use the lingo in the same way the board does.

You realize where this makes no sense, master of evidence and truth. Folks, Fanatic was questioning Dawson, asking what will it look like when he "calls the plays," suggesting if it looked like WVU while Dawson was OC, that could be bad news, because WVU was, as he said, better before Dawson got there. It is a repeated theme to inject doubt and criticisms in indirect ways. Now he says, oh my, it must just be semantics, as if readers of this board have not read his numerous attempts to say Dawson did not call plays. Wow.

 

[CatsFanGG24]

UT77 is awful...especially when he tries to make this argument.

His argument is basically that the head coach makes every play call because he hired the coordinators and allowed their plays to go through.

 

[CatsFanGG24]

I did not make the prior post. I suggested to Catsillustrated that it be posted...thankfully they accepted it...they usually keep them 95% of the time.

So whenever I post, just know it's really the CI powers. My words are merely a suggestion.

 

[footballfanatic77]

This is far from what you were saying before. Glad you are softening.

That's exactly what I said from the beginning.

 

[footballfanatic77]

You realize where this makes no sense, master of evidence and truth. Folks, Fanatic was questioning Dawson, asking what will it look like when he "calls the plays," suggesting if it looked like WVU while Dawson was OC, that could be bad news, because WVU was, as he said, better before Dawson got there. It is a repeated theme to inject doubt and criticisms in indirect ways. Now he says, oh my, it must just be semantics, as if readers of this board have not read his numerous attempts to say Dawson did not call plays. Wow.

I'm not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse or if you are trying to make a point. I said Dawson didn't call the plays. That's the truth as far as the traditional definition of calling plays is concerned. I repeatedly said that didn't really matter because play calling is only a small part of the job of an OC. I also said that WVU was better in the one year that Dawson wasn't the OC, that is also true. I said that not because I think he made them worse, I said it because I believe that his offenses will be better than the offenses at WVU. Now that I am aware that on this board there is a new and unique definition of play calling I will use that so we don't have to go in circles.

 

[footballfanatic77]

UT77 is awful...especially when he tries to make this argument.

His argument is basically that the head coach makes every play call because he hired the coordinators and allowed their plays to go through.

That's not my argument at all. My argument is that the final decision-maker and person who calls the play is the play caller. Not the person who suggests the play even if that is the play that is ultimately selected. But that's not the definition of play calling used on this board so I will use the board's definition from now on.

 

[footballfanatic77]

I did not make the prior post. I suggested to Catsillustrated that it be posted...thankfully they accepted it...they usually keep them 95% of the time.

So whenever I post, just know it's really the CI powers. My words are merely a suggestion.

This doesn't actually make sense but I'm not going to waste time going through why it isn't analogous.

 

[CatsFanGG24]

This doesn't actually make sense but I'm not going to waste time going through why it isn't analogous.

You waste a lot of time on this board, so go right ahead.

 

[footballfanatic77]

You waste a lot of time on this board, so go right ahead.

I enjoy most people on this board.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I'm not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse or if you are trying to make a point. I said Dawson didn't call the plays. That's the truth as far as the traditional definition of calling plays is concerned. I repeatedly said that didn't really matter because play calling is only a small part of the job of an OC. I also said that WVU was better in the one year that Dawson wasn't the OC, that is also true. I said that not because I think he made them worse, I said it because I believe that his offenses will be better than the offenses at WVU. Now that I am aware that on this board there is a new and unique definition of play calling I will use that so we don't have to go in circles.

Because you call it "unique" does not make it so. You bait. That is my opinion. And, you cannot admit when you are wrong, rather you want to act like others have redefined words. SMH

 

[Caveman Catfan]

That's not my argument at all. My argument is that the final decision-maker and person who calls the play is the play caller. Not the person who suggests the play even if that is the play that is ultimately selected. But that's not the definition of play calling used on this board so I will use the board's definition from now on.

The question is: why did you spend so much time trying to convince people Dawson did not call the plays? Why did you say you hoped he did not at WVU, because they were better before he arrived?

Those are rhetorical, by the way.

 

[fabcat]

So this thread has gone 2 pages of arguing whether Dawson called plays at WVU. Whether or not he called plays at WVU will have NO bearing on how he will do here.

 

[footballfanatic77]

Because you call it "unique" does not make it so. You bait. That is my opinion. And, you cannot admit when you are wrong, rather you want to act like others have redefined words. SMH

Because I believe that is true but this argument has become tiresome so I am adopting your definition of play calling just so we can peacefully end this. I think the facts and the evidence clearly indicate that I was right. You disagree. We are getting nowhere by arguing the point.

 

[footballfanatic77]

So this thread has gone 2 pages of arguing whether Dawson called plays at WVU. Whether or not he called plays at WVU will have NO bearing on how he will do here.

Yes. And I agree, which was my point. Regardless of who called the plays at WVU (I believe Holgorsen, Caveman believes Dawson), I still believe that Dawson will do an excellent job at UK and will run his own offensive scheme which will share DNA with WVU, but will be unique to Coach Dawson.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I was not picking between Holgerson and Dawson. Dawson called 85-90% of the plays and Holgerson agreed. Holgerson broke from Dawson 10-15%. Those were just facts. Not opinion and not some issue of semantics. I also think Dawson called very good games and did wonders with his QBs.

 

[chaisey]

I was not picking between Holgerson and Dawson. Dawson called 85-90% of the plays and Holgerson agreed. Holgerson broke from Dawson 10-15%. Those were just facts. Not opinion and not some issue of semantics. I also think Dawson called very good games and did wonders with his QBs.

 

[chaisey]

From where I'm standing dawson called the plays

 

[footballfanatic77]

Right but not if the definition of calling plays was how I always understood it: the final decision and communication to the QB. If that were the case Holgorsen called the plays 100%. But that's not the definition of calling plays here so I was wrong.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Or anywhere.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I could imagine the following on a UT board:

WVU fan: Dana Holgerson calls all his own plays for the Mountaineers.

UT fan: That is not true. His OC gives him the play and he usually accepts that play 85-90% of the time. Not exactly calling the plays.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I know very little about calling plays. But, I could evidently be the HC and have Shannon Dawson give me his suggestions. If I accepted them 100% of the time, I guess I could call my parents and tell them that I called the plays! (They would be soo very proud)

 

[footballfanatic77]

I'm pretty sure you are wrong here, but again our argument gets us nowhere. It has nothing to do with UK or UT, I've always believed that "calling the play" meant making a final decision and getting that play called in to the QB. For the sake of harmony, I am willing to abide by a different definition than the one I believe is traditionally accurate. Your imagination runs wild, but I can assure you that everybody on a UT board would believe Dana Holgorsen called his own plays. An example of a HC at UT who called his own plays was Lane Kiffin. I would imagine that Mumme was also heavily involved in his own playcalling.

The way it usually works is that the OC calls the plays and the HC can intervene and change the play if he chooses to do so, but generally the OC is given autonomy to call his own plays. In some systems where the HC is an offensive-minded guy, such as Gus Malzahn, Dana Holgorsen, Mike Leach, etc. they will call their own plays. That doesn't mean their OC isn't useful. He is the guy in the box reading defenses and telling the coaches what plays would work against the defense he is seeing. I, obviously incorrectly, believed that this latter system was the system in place at WVU while Dawson was there. In that kind of system, the HC would be the recognized playcaller generally, even though the OC contributed largely to the play called. For my misunderstanding I apologize. Let's leave this here and move on to more pleasant discussions. After all, we are both acknowledging that Dawson played an important role in WVU's offense, we are both acknowledging his contribution to the playcalling, and we both agree on the 80% number, we simply disagree about whether that makes him the playcaller or not. That doesn't affect how he will perform at UK.

 

[footballfanatic77]

I like a lot of the new changes that Shannon Dawson has brought to the offense. Obviously it's not perfect yet, but he does seem willing to call long pass plays more often than Neal Brown did.

 

[BigTyrone]

Trolling troll likes to troll

 

[footballfanatic77]

No. People were very much in love with Dawson before he had called a game. I was more skeptical about his abilities to walk on water. I do like many of the changes he has implemented. Just because the team lost yesterday, I still believe he is doing some things well (and some less well). That's life.

Besides, you have 6000+ messages and only 18 likes. Maybe you are the troll.