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Court Storming debate revisited

BigBlueFanGA said:
How is that the end of the problem? I agree that the school should face penalties f they haven't taken strong enough action, but they can't stop it on their own short of making the place look like a police state. In fact, I think that jst entices the juvenile mind to try harder. Punish the actual violators, or as many as possible. If their actions don't have unpleasant consequences, they have little incentive to stop the behavior. Schools and venues could face incredible liability for not doing everything possible to prevent court storming.
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Cause stampedes are good. . . .

I didn't specify how the school did it. Get 10000 or so folks on the field, Martians, students or whatever, levy a 10,000,000 or so fine at the host and they'll erect gates post guards, cancel events, etc. Cancel home football games that's pretty unpleasant. I've seen schools threaten to reduce student tickets over empty seats. Amazing results occur when privileges are taken. You'll see the same result with none of your bleeding heart doom and gloom if you take their football team as a result of their own action.

Life has consequences. You can't take action against 10,000 individuals. The retaliatory legal fallout would cripple education. I can assure you that you blast the institution with crushing fines, they'll control the venue.

Send your little girl to a big soccer match against two bloodthirsty international opponents. Let her charge the field. When she gets out of the hospital, we'll talk about your revised concept of a police state.

You really should review the court record of the NCAA versus individuals.
 
Oh good Lord. There won't be 10000 idiots storming a field. At any rate, I'm focused more on basketball, that's why the thread says "court storming". Most of the idiots will be students. The school has all the power they need to sanction them. I have no idea what you're talking about with "retaliatory litigation". Just ask Tubman about that. Use video to identify them and I bet you can make them pee down their little idiot legs pretty quickly. You solve problems at their source. The university usually isn't the problem.
 
BigBlueFanGA said:
Oh good Lord. There won't be 10000 idiots storming a field. At any rate, I'm focused more on basketball, that's why the thread says "court storming". Most of the idiots will be students. The school has all the power they need to sanction them. I have no idea what you're talking about with "retaliatory litigation". Just ask Tubman about that. Use video to identify them and I bet you can make them pee down their little idiot legs pretty quickly. You solve problems at their source. The university usually isn't the problem.
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We're not talking problems. We're talking solutions. You having no idea has been a common theme today.

Trashing the lives of a bunch of kids is really a good idea. Stops them from doing things like bringing liquor into the stadium. (Snort)

I agree though. 10000 bucks a head is probably better penalty for smaller venues.
 
Just stop. With every post you appear a bit dimmer. You do have a theme going on though. Don't punish the kids, court stormers, or make players earn PT, Skal. You clearly have an issue with personal responsibility. By enforcing consequences you aren't trashing kids lives or ruining players careers. You are teaching them what is required to become well balanced and productive eople and players.
 
BigBlueFanGA said:
Just stop. With every post you appear a bit dimmer. You do have a theme going on though. Don't punish the kids, court stormers, or make players earn PT, Skal. You clearly have an issue with personal responsibility. By enforcing consequences you aren't trashing kids lives or ruining players careers. You are teaching them what is required to become well balanced and productive eople and players.
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You truly struggle with reading comprehension. I'm sorry. It must be a horrible burden. Maybe some classes? For what it's worth, your last post was quite entertaining. You aren't quite in Bobbi's league, but funny none the less.

As I told you earlier, just pretend you are correct. It'll help your self esteem. Another option would be to put me on ignore.
 
I am kinda surprised that nobody has mentioned the field storming at Houston recently. I have mixed emotions on that one. After Houston beat Temple, students tried storming the field and some were tackled and kicked by security.

While I think security clearly crossed a line, I had to wonder what they were supposed to do as the students were forcing their way past them and they were told to keep the students off the field? It appears to be a lose/lose situation.
 
preacherfan said:
I am kinda surprised that nobody has mentioned the field storming at Houston recently. I have mixed emotions on that one. After Houston beat Temple, students tried storming the field and some were tackled and kicked by security.

While I think security clearly crossed a line, I had to wonder what they were supposed to do as the students were forcing their way past them and they were told to keep the students off the field? It appears to be a lose/lose situation.
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That's the sort of situation you get into with tactical controls. Those students will have a field day in court. Erect barriers, cancel events, reverse outcomes, etc is much more effective.

An example would be a bad call by an official. No matter how obvious, a terrible call VERY rarely results in a physical action against the official. If a few hundred fans did that, the game would be forfeit.

Brutally fine the institution, they will act strategically.
 
WSU/UKfan said:
When it comes down to the players, the arena just needs to make sure security is good. We've seen schools where the security has done a great job of blocking off the players from the students. It would even be fair to say that we need to make sure all players are off of the court before security allows people to storm. There are measures to take to make it safer without eliminating the practice all together. And given that it is a relatively safe practice anyway (court storming is obviously not as bad as it looks; if it were, there would be more injuries), it shouldn't be too hard to make minor adjustments to make it even safer.
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I think theoretically that makes sense but again, I see two problems with your solution: 1) Court storming happens at the final buzzer at most games. Players are often on the court celebrating. Trying to keep the students off the court until the players (and let's throw in some of the press) are safely off is probably never going to happen.

2) I think any school that tries to organize/control the storming is opening up for a major lawsuit. If little Suzi gets trampled, the university would face a lawsuit, bad press, and probably other problems for trying to control something that the courts would say should be prevented.

Locally, Edgar Snyder would have a field day with Pitt if they allowed court storming and someone got hurt. (He is our local lawyer on TV offering to sue anyone and everyone!)
 
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kybassfan said:
That's the sort of situation you get into with tactical controls. Those students will have a field day in court. Erect barriers, cancel events, reverse outcomes, etc is much more effective.

An example would be a bad call by an official. No matter how obvious, a terrible call VERY rarely results in a physical action against the official. If a few hundred fans did that, the game would be forfeit.

Brutally fine the institution, they will act strategically.
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We really can't talk about storming and protecting players without talking about Ol Roy. He pulled his starters and sent them to the locker room and put the scrubs on the floor for the court storming!
 
preacherfan said:
We really can't talk about storming and protecting players without talking about Ol Roy. He pulled his starters and sent them to the locker room and put the scrubs on the floor for the court storming!
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I have no words. Most despicable action I think I've seen by a coach. Right up there with throwing chairs.

Maybe there is a case to be made for storming Moonpie. Just him.
 
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kybassfan said:
You truly struggle with reading comprehension. I'm sorry. It must be a horrible burden. Maybe some classes? For what it's worth, your last post was quite entertaining. You aren't quite in Bobbi's league, but funny none the less.

As I told you earlier, just pretend you are correct. It'll help your self esteem. Another option would be to put me on ignore.
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First, I've never put anyone on ignore. Second, your entire post was rhetoric, just noise. I have no issue at all with continuing this if you want to continue embarrassing yourself. Just a point to clarify things. If you want to attack something I said, go for it, just sack up enough to be specific instead of dancing around like a child, saying nothing. I may be asking a lot from you, so let me help. What exactly do you believe I didn't comprehend?
 
BigBlueFanGA said:
First, I've never put anyone on ignore. Second, your entire post was rhetoric, just noise. I have no issue at all with continuing this if you want to continue embarrassing yourself. Just a point to clarify things. If you want to attack something I said, go for it, just sack up enough to be specific instead of dancing around like a child, saying nothing. I may be asking a lot from you, so let me help. What exactly do you believe I didn't comprehend?
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I've explained myself twice. You responded with as though I posted something completely different. Now, from my shoes I'm left to assume your reading comprehension is deficient. Now, I'm asked to respond again to someone that I have no expectation can read and comprehend the post. I'm truly not confident you can fully read this post. My wasting much time with someone that struggles with reading would be rather illogical, don't you think?

Not that I mind arguing points in some detail, my track record there is rather well established. It's just that your shortcoming makes that difficult. Frankly I have a hard time myself if I'm limited to short sentences and use of a restricted vocabulary. I think I even tried that once and used a lot of white space in hopes to make it make it easier. Clearly that didn't work.

As I advised before, just pretend you won or put me on ignore and you will feel better in the long run.
 
kybassfan said:
I've explained myself twice. You responded with as though I posted something completely different. Now, from my shoes I'm left to assume your reading comprehension is deficient. Now, I'm asked to respond again to someone that I have no expectation can read and comprehend the post. I'm truly not confident you can fully read this post. My wasting much time with someone that struggles with reading would be rather illogical, don't you think?

Not that I mind arguing points in some detail, my track record there is rather well established. It's just that your shortcoming makes that difficult. Frankly I have a hard time myself if I'm limited to short sentences and use of a restricted vocabulary. I think I even tried that once and used a lot of white space in hopes to make it make it easier. Clearly that didn't work.

As I advised before, just pretend you won or put me on ignore and you will feel better in the long run.
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Once again, empty rhetoric.
 
I'll try another way. Here, crayon mode. Please explain your statement "Trashing the lives of a bunch of kids is really a good idea."
 
preacherfan said:
I think theoretically that makes sense but again, I see two problems with your solution: 1) Court storming happens at the final buzzer at most games. Players are often on the court celebrating. Trying to keep the students off the court until the players (and let's throw in some of the press) are safely off is probably never going to happen.

2) I think any school that tries to organize/control the storming is opening up for a major lawsuit. If little Suzi gets trampled, the university would face a lawsuit, bad press, and probably other problems for trying to control something that the courts would say should be prevented.

Locally, Edgar Snyder would have a field day with Pitt if they allowed court storming and someone got hurt. (He is our local lawyer on TV offering to sue anyone and everyone!)
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1.) I'm pretty sure I've seen the kind of controlled court stormings that I'm referring to done before. After coach K cried a few years ago following Virginias court storming I remember seeing teams stepping up their security. It can be done. Even verbalizing to students that they will be allowed to court storm, but only after security gives the okay would probably solve the problem.

2.) I've only been to WSU games so maybe our arenas are different, but from what I've seen, if little Suzi stays in her seat while the fans rush the floor, how will she get trampled? Also, this goes back to my previous point comparing fans rushing the floor to Black Friday shoppers. Fans rushing the floor aren't doing so without regard to those around them. They aren't going to trample anyone. I'm sure they'd help a little girl up the same way that NC state player helped up that wheel chair dude a few years ago during a court storm.


I think one thing that needs to be acknowledged is the fact that court storming looks super dangerous but in reality isn't. It looks much worse than it actually is, evidenced by the low number of injuries.
 
If you want to stop it, people are going to have to be personally punished for it. Fining schools hasn't done anything to slow it down, and it's almost impossible for security to hold back hundreds or thousands of people who want to rush a court. Unless people are cited and fined, or are banned from future games (forfeit tickets for the season, for example), it won't be stopped. I'm not advocating for that action, but if you want it stopped, that is what it will take.
 
WSU/UKfan said:
1.) I'm pretty sure I've seen the kind of controlled court stormings that I'm referring to done before. After coach K cried a few years ago following Virginias court storming I remember seeing teams stepping up their security. It can be done. Even verbalizing to students that they will be allowed to court storm, but only after security gives the okay would probably solve the problem.

2.) I've only been to WSU games so maybe our arenas are different, but from what I've seen, if little Suzi stays in her seat while the fans rush the floor, how will she get trampled? Also, this goes back to my previous point comparing fans rushing the floor to Black Friday shoppers. Fans rushing the floor aren't doing so without regard to those around them. They aren't going to trample anyone. I'm sure they'd help a little girl up the same way that NC state player helped up that wheel chair dude a few years ago during a court storm.


I think one thing that needs to be acknowledged is the fact that court storming looks super dangerous but in reality isn't. It looks much worse than it actually is, evidenced by the low number of injuries.
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I'm just curious. If, say 1000 court stormings take place and there are 5 injuries. 3 minor but painful, one broken leg and one fatality. Are the benefits gained sufficient to offset the casualties? Same question but without the fatality? Same question but without the broken leg or the fatality?

Why should anyone suffer? It's just a damn game.
 
WSU/UKfan said:
1.)
Also, this goes back to my previous point comparing fans rushing the floor to Black Friday shoppers. Fans rushing the floor aren't doing so without regard to those around them. They aren't going to trample anyone.
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This might be the biggest difference in our viewpoints on the matter. I am willing to concede that 98% of those who storm the court are controlled. But, I don't think we can ignore the fact that there are a few in every crowd who are wreckless.
 
ganner918 said:
If you want to stop it, people are going to have to be personally punished for it. Fining schools hasn't done anything to slow it down, and it's almost impossible for security to hold back hundreds or thousands of people who want to rush a court. Unless people are cited and fined, or are banned from future games (forfeit tickets for the season, for example), it won't be stopped. I'm not advocating for that action, but if you want it stopped, that is what it will take.
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Problem with that is fined for what? That takes laws. Laws carry due process. Convictions can be appealed. End result is huge cost, kids careers damaged by criminal records , etc.

Simply take away the accomplishment they are celebrating. Forfeit the win. Fine the team. Cancel the season. Cancel the sport. This works. Refs don't get assaulted right after a bad call for this reason.
 
kybassfan said:
I'm just curious. If, say 1000 court stormings take place and there are 5 injuries. 3 minor but painful, one broken leg and one fatality. Are the benefits gained sufficient to offset the casualties? Same question but without the fatality? Same question but without the broken leg or the fatality?

Why should anyone suffer? It's just a damn game.
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Q1.) I sort of reject the premise of this first question/scenario just because the likelihood of someone getting injured is alreadyextremely low based off of what we've seen and now you want to talk about someone dying? I think you are taking things to the extreme just for the sake of argument.

Q2.) Same question with a broken leg but no fatalities, I say yes. 1000 court storms and 995 go well? Sounds good to me.

Q3.) Exact same response as Q2.

People suffer for a "damn game" all the time. How many fans "suffer" at baseball games or racing events when something flies into the crowd and hits somebody? Court storming is a part of college basketball. If you're at a game you should go in knowing that. If you're that worried about suffering, don't go to games where you are an underdog going against a ranked program or program with any sort of significant history. Or go to the game and stay in your seat. The last few games I've been to I don't know how I'd get hurt if a court storm happened if I just simply stayed in my seat.

preacherfan said:
This might be the biggest difference in our viewpoints on the matter. I am willing to concede that 98% of those who storm the court are controlled. But, I don't think we can ignore the fact that there are a few in every crowd who are wreckless.
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There are, but how much damage has that 2% caused so far? Again, we are talking about something that is not as dangerous as it looks. It's a lot more dangerous in theory than it is in practice.
 
WSU/UKfan said:
Q1.) I sort of reject the premise of this first question/scenario just because the likelihood of someone getting injured is alreadyextremely low based off of what we've seen and now you want to talk about someone dying? I think you are taking things to the extreme just for the sake of argument.

Q2.) Same question with a broken leg but no fatalities, I say yes. 1000 court storms and 995 go well? Sounds good to me.

Q3.) Exact same response as Q2.

People suffer for a "damn game" all the time. How many fans "suffer" at baseball games or racing events when something flies into the crowd and hits somebody? Court storming is a part of college basketball. If you're at a game you should go in knowing that. If you're that worried about suffering, don't go to games where you are an underdog going against a ranked program or program with any sort of significant history. Or go to the game and stay in your seat. The last few games I've been to I don't know how I'd get hurt if a court storm happened if I just simply stayed in my seat.



There are, but how much damage has that 2% caused so far? Again, we are talking about something that is not as dangerous as it looks. It's a lot more dangerous in theory than it is in practice.
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Really? Hmmm . . . .

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-44906/120-trampled-death-soccer-stadium-panic.html

Actually, I wasn't taking things to an extreme. I was offering a hypothetical situation to assess benefit versus risk. Its a valid technique, though as you found, it makes some folks uncomfortable. Actually, the extreme event is a terrorist attack during a court storming, but we won't go there.

The thing is that large crowds with no particular direction and a lot of emotion riding on the individuals in the crowd lead to chaotic events. If you don't believe that, then a few conversations with the business owners in Ferguson MO might persuade you differently. In the case of sporting events and court stormings, these things take place after the event has concluded. There is nothing to be gained by a fan on the field of competition. Absolutely nothing. Why take the risk?

There is a simple fix. The hosting body and venue can control this. For example, if you take the court, I will take your win and fine your university brutally. If you do it again, I will take your season and fine your university brutally. If you repeat it, I will take your team and fine your university brutally. You will no longer storm the court of a nonexistent team. Very few if any others will risk suffering the same penalty. Universities will make access to the court extremely difficult.

Bottom line is that it is EXTREMELY difficult to justify loss of life and limb for zero gain. Another way to look at this is imagine that someone asked to shoot at you. It would be a very difficult shot. Say, 5000 feet with a 30/06. You get nothing, but you take very little risk. You are not compelled to submit to the shot. Would you volunteer if you get nothing in return for accepting the risk? A sane person would not.
 
It's impossible to stop court stormings? Interesting. I have never seen a single one at an NBA game. Don't recall seeing a field storming at a NFL or MLB game either. They manage to prevent it, why can't colleges do it?
 
wildcatsboston1984 said:
It's impossible to stop court stormings? Interesting. I have never seen a single one at an NBA game. Don't recall seeing a field storming at a NFL or MLB game either. They manage to prevent it, why can't colleges do it?
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I imagine the pros can afford the necessary security and safety measures most colleges can't.

I'm on the fence on this one, personally - I understand the fun of it, and the excitement (even though it's become extremely commonplace now); but on the other hand there are a lot of potential dangers. I'm not sure how you would enforce it, really, without violating rights, or going over the top in any other way.
 
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WSU/UKfan said:
Q1.)
There are, but how much damage has that 2% caused so far? Again, we are talking about something that is not as dangerous as it looks. It's a lot more dangerous in theory than it is in practice.
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We have both validated the main points of the other. You accept that a few do cause injury to innocent bystanders and I accept that, to the best of my knowledge, serious injuries are few.

If you and I were both college presidents, you would allow a controlled court storm while I would take some fairly drastic steps to prevent them.

As far as risk goes, I am not willing to risk a serious injury to fan, ref, coach or player. You would accept that risk. Is that fair to say?

BTW, I think I might allow court storming at Rupp if Tipton were in the way! (okay, I am joking)[laughing]
 
preacherfan said:
We have both validated the main points of the other. You accept that a few do cause injury to innocent bystanders and I accept that, to the best of my knowledge, serious injuries are few.

If you and I were both college presidents, you would allow a controlled court storm while I would take some fairly drastic steps to prevent them.

As far as risk goes, I am not willing to risk a serious injury to fan, ref, coach or player. You would accept that risk. Is that fair to say?

BTW, I think I might allow court storming at Rupp if Tipton were in the way! (okay, I am joking)[laughing]
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Could we storm Bobbi?
 
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WSU/UKfan said:
As a fan, you willingly take a very minor risk by going to a game where there is likely to be court storming. Court storming is not a new or secret phenomenon so if you're a school like Virginia Tech playing at home against Duke or a Northwestern playing at home against Mich St., as a fan you are assuming the risk of being in the middle of a court storm if your team wins the same way you are assuming a risk in your baseball and car race analogies because you know what could possibly happen. Now again, that risk is minor. You speak of the kind of people who usually get hurt but it's worth noting that nobody usually gets hurt.

When it comes down to the players, the arena just needs to make sure security is good. We've seen schools where the security has done a great job of blocking off the players from the students. It would even be fair to say that we need to make sure all players are off of the court before security allows people to storm. There are measures to take to make it safer without eliminating the practice all together. And given that it is a relatively safe practice anyway (court storming is obviously not as bad as it looks; if it were, there would be more injuries), it shouldn't be too hard to make minor adjustments to make it even safer.
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you keep saying this...and yes, there is no documentation; but IMO I think at most, someone does get hurt it is just not significant enough to report
I was at Utah when they beat USC and the field got stormed... I saw at least three people with injuries. One girl fell and was repeatedly stepped on. Another guy was jumping over the railing and ankle went sideways (his fault, of course) and last guy got pushed down and had gash on forehead. NONE of these injuries were on the ESPN.

when UK last tore down the goalpost many students were injured.
 
Xception said:
Go Facebook how offended you are , I don't care for people like you .
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So, we were up there (in the stands) jumping up and down. Now, we're going to run dangerously over there (to mid court) and jump up and down. So what if we step on a few kids, break some arms/legs and cause general mayhem? We're college kids and we deserve to do whatever we want because....well, just because!
 
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Blueworld_3.0 said:
So, we were up there (in the stands) jumping up and down. Now, we're going to run dangerously over there (to mid court) and jump up and down. So what if we step on a few kids, break some arms/legs and cause general mayhem? We're college kids and we deserve to do whatever we want because....well, just because!
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While drunk or stoned to the bone, no less.
 
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