Championship - Son_Of_Saul vs. drcats2013

[DraftCat]

Welcome to March Madness this is the Championship Matchup of the 2024 UK Draft. (Click Here for Bracket).

Voters - Please vote for the team you believe would win in a 1 game elimination format. You will be able to change your vote and voting period is open for 48 hours. If a tie should occur I will extend the voting by another 2 hours until the tie is broken. Your vote will be visible.

@Son_Of_Saul - John Wall, Demarcus Cousins, Jodie Meeks, Antonio Reeves, PJ Washington, Keldon Johnson,Tyler Herro, Mark Pope, Reggie Hanson, Cason Wallace, Jarrod Polson

vs.

@drcats2013 - Tony Delk, Goose Givens, Sam Bowie, Shai Gil Alexander, Willie Cauley Stein, Immanuel Quickley, Eric Bledsoe, Alex Poythress, Josh Harrellson, Wah Wah Jones, Ravi Moss


*Please do not vote for DraftCat*

 

[DraftCat]

Good luck you two - and thanks again to all the participants and voters.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

@DraftCat , many thanks to you for putting together this draft. It's been a blast.

Best wishes to my buddy, @drcats2013 . You've got a heck of team. I'm expecting a nail biter than could go either way.

 

[drcats2013]

Good luck you two - and thanks again to all the participants and voters.

Hey, it has your name instead of mine lol

 

[drcats2013]

@DraftCat , many thanks to you for putting together this draft. It's been a blast.

Best wishes to my buddy, @drcats2013 . You've got a heck of team. I'm expecting a nail biter than could go either way.

Good luck, my friend. I’m gonna need it I’m sure, but I’ll make my best argument tomorrow while on the clock, lol.

 

[DraftCat]

Hey, it has your name instead of mine lol

Lol well I told you I'd find my way into the championship.... interesting enough that is the only thing I can't edit.

So I added your name any votes for me obviously won't count.

 

[drcats2013]

Lol well I told you I'd find my way into the championship.... interesting enough that is the only thing I can't edit.

So I added your name any votes for me obviously won't count.

Your blank team may get more votes than mine from the looks of it lmao.

 

[DraftCat]

Your blank team may get more votes than mine from the looks of it lmao.

Not sure our teams combined beats @Son_Of_Saul think it's destiny.

 

[drcats2013]

Not sure our teams combined beats @Son_Of_Saul think it's destiny.

Well throw me a vote and let’s give it a damn try anyway!!!

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

I've been looking up some interesting numbers. The amount of fouls that my starting guys draw is pretty mind-boggling.

Boogie (7.1), Wall (6.3), Reeves (4.0), Washington (5.1), and Meeks (6.5) went to the line a combined 29 times alone.

They also combined to make a decent chunk of those foul shouts (21.7/29) for 75% overall.

Not even factoring in maximum bench play, this team is getting to the line almost 30 times a game before you even put in a reserve.

By contrast, last year's UK team didn't even average 20 free throw attempts per game COMBINED.

I love that Meeks and Wall combine to get to the line almost 13 times per game and they're hitting 10.6/12.8 each game for 83% combined. In other words, in a close game, these are your two primary ball handlers and they're pretty good from the line.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

By contrast, the opposition is not getting to the line as much, but they're almost identical when they do.

Delk's best season (1996): he was 2.4/3.1 from the line per game for 80%.
SGA 3.9/4.7 for 83%
Givens' best season 3.9/4.7 for 83%
WCS 2.0/3.3 (best season) for 62%
Bowie's best season 4.2/5.9 for 72%

They're taking 21.7 free throws per game at 16.4 for 21.7 from the line. That's also outstanding for 76% from the line. Yet, they're also taking over 7 less free throws per game while shooing almost the exact same percentage.

 

[RunninRichie]

This was tough. Went Dr because he has a better bench.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Three point shooting (career):

Pope 41%
Meeks 39%
Reeves 38%
Washington 38%
Johnson 38%
Herro 35%
Hanson 35%
Wallace 35%
Wall 32%
Cousins 17%

Eight guys who shot at least 35% from three.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

This was tough. Went Dr because he has a better bench.

Spacing no longer matters? WCS and Bowie playing 80s basketball alongside a no-sample-size-from-three Givens and SGA who only took 1.5 threes/game.

He has two high-level three point threats on his entire roster - Delk (who doesn't get to the line) and IQ. Bledsoe and SGA, while high percentage, were low volume three point threats. WCS gives you zero spacing. Givens might have been a great three point threat. We'll never really know. You gonna go with a maybe in a title game over a 44% three point threat, and Hanson/Keldon in reserve at the three? Individually, Givens is better than all of them, but Givens really needs a stretch 4 to open up the mid-range game for him. WCS is probably the worst type of 4 man for his game.

I'm genuinely curious why you would abandon the spacing you've claimed to love for the last 5 years for a style you've grown to dislike (Cal ball, which is essentially drcats' roster construction).

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Bowie - great player, no spacing
WCS - great player, no spacing
Givens - no sample size from three
Delk - great shooter, 44% from three as a senior
SGA - only took 1.5 threes/game 40% from three.

There's no spacing on that team.

Meanwhile

Cousins - great player, no spacing
Washington - 42% from three his last year
Reeves - 44% from three as a senior
Meeks - 41% from three as a junior
Wall - 32% from three

 

[RunninRichie]

Spacing no longer matters? WCS and Bowie playing 80s basketball alongside a no-sample-size-from-three Givens and SGA who only took 1.5 threes/game.

He has two high-level three point threats on his entire roster. Bledsoe and SGA, while high percentage, were low volume three point threats. WCS gives you zero spacing. Givens might have been a great three point threat. We'll never really know. You gonna go with a maybe in a title game over a 44% three point threat, and Hanson/Keldon in reserve at the three?

I'm genuinely curious why you would abandon the spacing you've claimed to love for the last 5 years for a style you've grown to dislike (Cal ball, which is essentially drcats' roster construction).

To me in came down to the bench. I still like the spacing of your team. And I almost voted for your team. I really like how you made sure everyone could shoot a 3, almost. Like how I did. But, I'm also taking Bowie over Cousins.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

To me in came down to the bench. I still like the spacing. I'm also taking Bowie over Cousins.

High efficiency threes and twos with the best point guard in school history to lead the break to find shooters > high efficiency twos with zero spacing.

We get to the line more (starters alone 29 to 22 while both shooting about 75-76%)
We shoot the ball better from three.
We have better spacing.
We have the better point guard.
We have two lockdown defenders in Hanson and Wallace.
We have a real leader in Pope.
We are at least comparable at their best positions (Meeks vs. Delk; Cousins vs. Bowie).

But IQ is better than any of my bench guys (I'll give you that), but my bench is just as deep.

But I respect your choice. Thanks for staying this far with us and participating, amigo.

 

[drcats2013]

Spacing no longer matters? WCS and Bowie playing 80s basketball alongside a no-sample-size-from-three Givens and SGA who only took 1.5 threes/game.

He has two high-level three point threats on his entire roster - Delk (who doesn't get to the line) and IQ. Bledsoe and SGA, while high percentage, were low volume three point threats. WCS gives you zero spacing. Givens might have been a great three point threat. We'll never really know. You gonna go with a maybe in a title game over a 44% three point threat, and Hanson/Keldon in reserve at the three? Individually, Givens is better than all of them, but Givens really needs a stretch 4 to open up the mid-range game for him. WCS is probably the worst type of 4 man for his game.

I'm genuinely curious why you would abandon the spacing you've claimed to love for the last 5 years for a style you've grown to dislike (Cal ball, which is essentially drcats' roster construction).

Bowie could shoot the ball. Obviously didn’t shoot threes then, but he had a very good jump shot. Willie played alongside Karl Towns on a 38-1 squad and Towns didn’t shoot 10 3’s the ENTIRE season. Pretty sure it would work just fine.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Bowie could shoot the ball. Obviously didn’t shoot threes then, but he had a very good jump shot. Willie played alongside Karl Towns on a 38-1 squad and Towns didn’t shoot 10 3’s the ENTIRE season. Pretty sure it would work just fine.

But that 2015 team wasn't playing a starting five like this one. The 2015 team wasn't good at stopping teams that could shoot at at least four positions. Look at how WCS and that team struggled against Notre Dame and Wisconsin.

 

[drcats2013]

But that 2015 team wasn't playing a starting five like this one. The 2015 team wasn't good at stopping teams that could shoot at at least four positions. Look at how WCS and that team struggled against Notre Dame and Wisconsin.

Cherry picking games. I thought we didn’t do that? Would be like me saying look at how cousins and wall did against WVU. “Oh but they didn’t have Meeks and reeves to shoot the ball”. Reeves also went 1-15 vs Kansas state. Pretty sure my squad is a lot better than that one.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Cherry picking games. I thought we didn’t do that? Would be like me saying look at how cousins and wall did against WVU. “Oh but they didn’t have Meeks and reeves to shoot the ball”. Reeves also went 1-15 vs Kansas state. Pretty sure my squad is a lot better than that one.

Yet, in your scenario Reeves could struggle in a game like this, and I can still have guys make shots (Meeks, Keldon, Herro, Hanson, Washington) from three. Meanwhile, WCS still can't space the floor, no matter how well he plays or doesn't play.

That limits the looks you have schematically. Givens' three-point unknown adds even more question marks about your roster. Can he shoot from three at a high-level clip? We'll never really now. But one things for sure in a game of this magnitude with shot makers everywhere, Givens - a complete unknown from three - will have to make threes. That's a huge gamble.

SGA played a ton of minutes for Cal's 2018 team, but he only took 1.5 threes/game. So he's effectively a non-threat from three. He likes to get in the lane and draw contact. Wall is 6'4" and can stay with him in every way.

We can literally sag off your bigs, guard Delk and SGA straight up, and attempt to turn Givens into a three point shooter.

 

[drcats2013]

Yet, in your scenario Reeves could struggle in a game like this, and I can still have guys make shots (Meeks, Keldon, Herro, Hanson, Washington) from three. Meanwhile, WCS still can't space the floor, no matter how well he plays or doesn't play.

That limits the looks you have schematically. Givens' three-point unknown adds even more question marks about your roster. Can he shoot from three at a high-level clip? We'll never really now.

Your 35% shooters won’t shoot at that percent against the greatest college defensive squad ever assembled. This is the wrong team to make that agreement against.

To discredit Goose due to not having a 3 point line when he played practically discredits any point you try to make. Why not just have a 3 point line only draft? I guess you also discredit our titles before 96 since they didn’t play modern basketball. I get it, your team is full of unaccomplished one and done players. You have to find a narrative, but this is a poor one.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Everyone points out Boogie's foul trouble but Sam Bowie averaged 3 fouls per game, which was only .4 less than Boogie per contest. Boogie also went to the line 7 times per game to Bowie's 5, meaning that Bowie will also have a hard time staying out of foul trouble in this game.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Your 35% shooters won’t shoot at that percent against the greatest college defensive squad ever assembled. This is the wrong team to make that agreement against.

To discredit Goose due to not having a 3 point line when he played practically discredits any point you try to make. Why not just have a 3 point line only draft? I guess you also discredit our titles before 96 since they didn’t play modern basketball. I get it, your team is full of unaccomplished one and done players. You have to find a narrative, but this is a poor one.

Unaccomplished as in "didn't make a Final Four?"

Go tell that to Issel, Prince, Bogans, Rondo, Hanson, Crawford, Fitch, Daniels, Hayes, Meeks, Wall, Cousins, Fox, Bam, Monk, Patterson, Chapman, Pelphrey, Farmer, Woods, Feldhouse, and the dozens of other Wildcats who are "less accomplished" than guys like Jared Prickett, Rod Rhodes, and Trey Lyles because they didn't make a Final Four.

That argument was weak before, and it's weaker now. You'd have done better to have left one rotting in the last thread where you tried to use it as a pregame attempt at brainwashing the voters.

Make your case based on talent, not how many Final Fours a guy gets to. Otherwise, Jared Prickett and Bill Spivey would be top 20 picks in this draft.

 

[drcats2013]

My opponent had a beautiful team on paper and a team all the young fans can relate with, but it’s fools gold against my team of winners and men. There is something to be said about a winners mentality, and we all know from the last 10 years that this style of roster construction won’t get it done when it matters.

 

[drcats2013]

Unaccomplished as in "didn't make a Final Four?" That's a massive disrespect to some of our best players ever.

Go tell that to Issel, Prince, Bogans, Rondo, Hanson, Crawford, Fitch, Daniels, Hayes, Meeks, Wall, Cousins, Fox, Bam, Monk, Patterson, Chapman, Pelphrey, Farmer, Woods, Feldhouse, and the dozens of other Wildcats who are "less accomplished" than guys like Jared Prickett, Rod Rhodes, and Trey Lyles because they didn't make a Final Four.

That argument was weak before, and it's weaker now. You'd have done better to have left one rotting in the last thread where you tried to use it as a pregame attempt at brainwashing the voters.

Make your case based on talent, not how many Final Fours a guy gets to. Otherwise, Jared Prickett and Bill Spivey would be top 20 picks in this draft.

You’ve pooped on players many times over this course of this. Discredited them for various reasons that have no basis. A bit hypocritical, don’t you think?

“Make your case on talent not their accomplishments”. Dear God is this coach Cal? LOL

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

My opponent had a beautiful team on paper and a team all the young fans can relate with, but it’s fools gold against my team of winners and men. There is something to be said about a winners mentality, and we all know from the last 10 years that this style of roster construction won’t get it done when it matters.

Playing the "let's delegitimize Saul's real talent because some of those guys played for Cal and we all hate Cal" card...

 

[drcats2013]

I’m not sure I’ve seen a bigger mismatch in this tournament than Goose playing Reeves. Which he is equal to Sky Walker according to my opponent.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

I’m not sure I’ve seen a bigger mismatch in this tournament than Goose playing Reeves. Which he is equal to Sky Walker according to my opponent.

I'll give you Goose over Reeves. No argument there.

 

[drcats2013]

I'll give you Goose over Reeves. No argument there.

There it is. He’s conceded the match. All son of Saul voters can flip their votes over to my team. Thank you.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

There it is. He’s conceded the match. All son of Saul voters can flip their votes over to my team. Thank you.

Meanwhile, John Wall just connected to Meeks for another three in transition while you and Goose were admiring his midrange two pointer.

 

[cat tat2]

IMO…

Wall = SGA
Cousins < Bowie, slightly
Meeks < Delk, slightly
PJ = WCS
Reeves < Goose, no way Reeves can guard Goose.
SoS bench < dr bench

 

[drcats2013]

IMO…

Wall = SGA
Cousins < Bowie, slightly
Meeks < Delk, slightly
PJ = WCS
Reeves < Goose, no way Reeves can guard Goose.
SoS bench < dr bench

Agreed. A lot of people don’t understand how good all American Bowie was. There is a reason he was drafted over Michael freaking Jordan at that time. Hindsight is 20/20, but sadly he could not overcome the injuries.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

IMO…

Wall = SGA
Cousins < Bowie, slightly
Meeks < Delk, slightly
PJ = WCS
Reeves < Goose, no way Reeves can guard Goose.
SoS bench < dr bench

College Wall = College SGA is the stuff of Timothy Leary-level drug hallucinations.

 

[drcats2013]

College Wall = College SGA is the stuff of Timothy Leary-level drug hallucinations.

How so? Break down the statistics and analytics to prove this. Shai was not flashy. He didn’t have the hype. Compare the numbers. He was a better shooter, better 3 point shooter (that’s means everything to you), better rebounder, better on ball defender, less turnovers. I can go on and on. All this despite Wall playing on an INFINITELY more talented team.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

How so? Break down the statistics and analytics to prove this. Shai was not flashy. He didn’t have the hype. Compare the numbers. He was a better shooter, better 3 point shooter (that’s means everything to you), better rebounder, better on ball defender, less turnovers. I can go on and on. All this despite Wall playing on an INFINITELY more talented team.

College SGA was so awesome that you waited until your 4th pick to take him while he didn't even go in the top 30 of the draft.

Some of your stats are fabricated. Wall averaged more points, rebounds, steals and assists. You said he was a better defender and rebounder. The stats don't suggest that at all. You said, "I can go on and on." So go ahead. Go "on and on" and demonstrate to us all the ways SGA in college was better than Wall in college.

And it's disingenuous to make a claim that you'd take college SGA over college Wall. You remember that thread early on where you wrote that claims like that steer you in the other direction? Yep, you're making one of those claims.

There's no way you actually believe that. I know you're trying to solicit votes, but come on, man.

 

[cat tat2]

Agreed. A lot of people don’t understand how good all American Bowie was. There is a reason he was drafted over Michael freaking Jordan at that time. Hindsight is 20/20, but sadly he could not overcome the injuries.

Yeah, Cousins was good but I can’t name a better 7 footer than Bowie, off the top of my head. I would take Bowie over Ralph Sampson.

 

[drcats2013]

College SGA was so awesome that you waited until your 4th pick to take him while he didn't even go in the top 30 of the draft.

Some of your stats are fabricated. Wall averaged more points, rebounds, steals and assists. You said he was a better defender and rebounder. The stats don't suggest that at all.

And it's disingenuous to make a claim that you'd take college SGA over college Wall.

There's no way you actually believe that. I know you're trying to solicit votes, but come on, man.

I never said I’d take SGA over Wall, but it’s damn near close when you break it down. He was the much more efficient player statistically. Rebounds were even per 40, so he did not average more looking back, so I’ll give you that.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

I never said I’d take SGA over Wall, but it’s damn near close when you break it down. He was the much more efficient player statistically. Rebounds were even per 40, so he did not average more looking back, so I’ll give you that.

The entire matchup is close as every position. Both teams are loaded. Both benches are loaded. This is the matchup I predicted from the beginning.

Didn't you win one of these a few years ago?

 

[drcats2013]

The entire matchup is close as every position. Both teams are loaded. Both benches are loaded. This is the matchup I predicted from the beginning.

Didn't you win one of these a few years ago?

Agreed. I predicted the same and for you to win. I think I have a better team and I think you had a better strategy. Not that your team isn’t great.

I tied one with 420Grover, I believe it was. He was up two and at the last second changed his vote to my team because he thought I had the better team lol. Never will forget that and what a respectful choice he made.