Baseball question for PTI

[HymanKaplan]

Regardless of what others might think, PTI knows baseball better than the vast majority of folks on here (from a fan/historian persepective)
If you disagree, well, you're just wrong. So, enough with the sycophantisms...

Casey - Adam Wainwright: HOF at some point? I have my opinion, based on comparables that are currently in.

My initial thought was, not a chance, but I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility, once you look at his comps, as I said, to guys that HAVE been inducted.

 

[TCPUKChamps]

Him and Molina shouldn't even sniff it.

Made up "intangibles" is not a HOF credential

 

[HymanKaplan]

I'm taking your opinion on it as rock solid proof that both Molina (whom I didn't even bring up) and Wainwright are definitely HOF worthy.

 

[TCPUKChamps]

Catcher (22nd):
42.3 career WAR | 28.7 7yr-peak WAR | 35.5 JAWS | 3.1 WAR/162
Average HOF C (out of 16):
53.6 career WAR | 34.7 7yr-peak WAR | 44.2 JAWS | 4.7 WAR/162

Molina is an average catcher who played well past his prime. He isn't anywhere near a real Hall of Famer.

But dudes like Harold Baines are in so I'm sure he'll be first ballot because the Baseball HOF is a joke anymore.

Wainwright made 3 All Star Teams, no Cy Youngs. But like Molina probably played 5 years too long to get to 200 wins at expense of a better pitcher coming up. He's not anywhere close to a HOF.

Look at their Baseball-Reference pages, if they played for the Marlins or Rockies they wouldn't even be considered. But THE CARDINAL WAY bullshit mythology will probably unfortunately turn voters to voting for htem.

 

[cole854]

Regardless of what others might think, PTI knows baseball better than the vast majority of folks on here (from a fan/historian persepective)
If you disagree, well, you're just wrong.

No, he doesn't and I am definitely not wrong...not even on a Friday after a long week.

Molina...yes. He was the Ozzie of the C position, which holds more weight given the responsibilities required to play it. Offensively, just good enough, and was excellent in the NLCS/WS. He was the defensive standard for all catchers for more than a decade.

Wainright...no. Better pitchers well above him in the important categories that are not in.

 

[funKYcat75]

Given that the definition of a HOFer seems to have been made easier, Molina should get in. As a Reds fan, it really hurts to say that. Baseball is full of intangibles, and unfortunately he had those by the boatload.

 

[berniecarbo]

Been a huge Cardinal fan since Musial was still near his peek. I've read some Bill James books so I have a partial understanding of the saber stuff. IMO it's a useful tool, but is oversold. Bill James started the saber stuff when he was an agent as a negotiating tool to "sell" his players to owners. I forget the guy he said he started it for, but that player was known as an offensive player. Bill admits that it doesn't do a good job on defensive value. Defense was more important before the high strikeout/launch angle days.

That said, imo Moilina is borderline, but will probably get in based on name recognition. Adam might have been HOF worthy except for injuries. If memory recalls, he was top 3 in Cy Young voting at least 3 times. Though I'm a big fan, Adam is only Hall of Very Good.

 

[WayneDougan]

The people who voted for Harold Baines should be sent to Gaza. True Story.

 

[JonathanW]

Wainwright, no.
Molina squeeze in, comparable to Ozzie or better yet Vizquel

 

[HymanKaplan]

That was my thought. (Molina barely, Waino NO.)

 

[Jeff Drummond]

Until Dave Parker gets his due, screw these guys.

 

[Kooky Kats]

David Cone >> Wainwright

 

[TCPUKChamps]

BUT BUT THE CARDINAL WAY! YOU WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND!

 

[Kooky Kats]

Accumulating stats in the worst division in baseball is the Cardinal Way.

 

[sg24]

Waino no
In time Molina yes.

 

[berniecarbo]

BUT BUT THE CARDINAL WAY! YOU WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND!

The Cardinal Way died with George Kissell in 2008. It lingered on with players and coaches he taught till they all finally left the organization or retired. I've seen little leaguers with more baseball common sense than the Cards have shown in the last few years.

 

[PhDcat2018]

The people who voted for Harold Baines should be sent to Gaza. True Story.

F Harold Baines

 

[WayneDougan]

F Harold Baines

Harold Baines was an above average hitter who didn’t play defense (like he physically didn’t play most of the time). It’s unbelievable that he isn’t in.

 

[CrimsonCats]

Wainwright will always be one of my favorite
Cardinals (and I’m a Cardinals fan), but I don’t think he quite gets there. Was he more talented at his peak than some pitchers who ended up in the HOF? Probably. Does he have the career accomplishments to merit induction? In my opinion, no.

I do have to push back on the arguments that Molina doesn’t belong though. I’m usually an advanced stats guy, but I don’t particularly love WAR as a useful comparison for catchers because so many of their core duties like calling games, blocking balls in the dirt, and framing pitches (although Fangraphs has tried to include this in recent years) aren’t included in the calculation. Yadi was legendarily good at those things as well as being so good at throwing out runners that teams basically stopped running against him for over a decade. He’s an all-time defender at a defense first position, and was still enough of a threat with the bat to finish with over 2000 career hits even if he didn’t have amazing power. I think that’s enough that he should be comfortably in.

 

[PTI (pti)]

bttt

 

[HymanKaplan]

Yadier Molina is the third best defensive/fielding catcher in history. He belongs in the HOF

You have the right to disagree, but you'll still be wrong.

 

[kywildcatsfannumber1]

Lifelong Reds fan, never liked Molina but without question he is a Hall of Famer. No doubt it my mind.

 

[drew_ukfan]

There’s worse players in the HOF and there’s far better players not in the HOF (not even counting Pete Rose, Shoeless Joe, or the steroid users)

It’s a meaningless honor, come up with a black and white measurement and if you reach it, you’re in. Voting is dumb

That said, I don’t think Molina or Waino are worthy. I’d put Ken Boyer in tho

 

[HymanKaplan]

If it had been a black and white issue for the entirety of MLB history, there would be a LOT fewer white players in the HOF, I can guarantee you that...

(and Molina deserves to be in. He set himself apart, generationally, from his peers on defense. It's silly to argue otherwise)

 

[drew_ukfan]

If it had been a black and white issue for the entirety of MLB history, there would be a LOT fewer white players in the HOF, I can guarantee you that...

That’s not what I meant..

 

[HymanKaplan]

Ummm, yeah, I get that. I was making a humorous segue...

 

[drew_ukfan]

Ummm, yeah, I get that. I was making a humorous segue...

Gotcha, good one!

For lack of better measurement, I’d just say reach 50 WAR and you’re in. If you’re in and you don’t have 50 WAR, your plaque will be taken down. Simple

 

[HymanKaplan]

Honestly, I'm sick of WAR. Sometimes intangibles count, IMO. I get your point, it would end all of the bickering, but intangibles and bickering are pretty much the HEART of baseball. I can see both sides.

 

[drew_ukfan]

Honestly, I'm sick of WAR. Sometimes intangibles count, IMO. I get your point, it would end all of the bickering, but intangibles and bickering are pretty much the HEART of baseball. I can see both sides.

Fair argument. I’ll just disagree.