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Anyone Here Have An Electric Car?

Laugh all you want @Chuckinden.
Most automakers have already announced their intentions of going all electric in this decade. Once you remove all gas manufacturing, they’ll begin trade in incentives to get the gas guzzlers off the road. Once there is a is enough of a transition, it won’t be financially feasible to give continued support to gas infrastructure.

I’m also saying 15 to 20 years for the transition. That’s not an alarmist conspiracy theory sort of timeline.

The reason I’m saying now is the time to buy a classic and hold it, is that value will grow exponentially as they begin this transition. Just look at what the cash for clunkers program did to the price of old used cars, raised the price significantly for a period of time.
 
Bigblue2023 said:
Laugh all you want @Chuckinden.
Most automakers have already announced their intentions of going all electric in this decade. Once you remove all gas manufacturing, they’ll begin trade in incentives to get the gas guzzlers off the road. Once there is a is enough of a transition, it won’t be financially feasible to give continued support to gas infrastructure.

I’m also saying 15 to 20 years for the transition. That’s not an alarmist conspiracy theory sort of timeline.

The reason I’m saying now is the time to buy a classic and hold it, is that value will grow exponentially as they begin this transition. Just look at what the cash for clunkers program did to the prices of old used cars, raised the price significantly for a period of time.
Click to expand...
Is that a bad thing?
 
For a multitude of reasons, the car/transportation industry is going electric. You can pick and choose why. In all honesty, the why is irrelevant. If you were going to pick one, just go with the cost of Oil. For countries like the US where it is plentiful and we subsidize the heck out of it, then gas is cheap. For the majority of the rest that isn't the case. So back in 2020, a gallon of gas represented about 1.4% of the average daily wage in the US. That same gallon of gas In France jumps to nearly 5%. In Russia, it is 8.6%. In China, it is 12.24%. It gets even crazier from there. In India, it is nearly 75%, And this is all before the pandemic drove up global fuel costs. The timeframe for most countries is a lot closer to 5-10 years, which means it will accelerate the US as well.

In the UK there are more EV charging stations than gas stations. The Tesla Model 3 is the best-selling car in Europe. Not electric car, just car. Most of the Scandinavian countries are already all electric where 9 out of 10 cars sold are EVs. China sold over 1.3 million EVs in 2020 and all electric companies that most people have never heard of like BYD and Nio are poised to become the largest automakers in the world in the next decade.

Me personally, I replaced a Nissan Pathfinder with a BMW i3. When gas was cheap, I was probably spending about $200-250 a month on gas. Who knows what that would be today. Now I am spending about $30-40 a month on electricity. I also don't have oil changes, spark plugs, air filters or any of the other normal maintenance costs. I have added washer fluid and changed my wiper blades. That is the sum total of maintenance I have done in a year.
 
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I bought a BMW X5 plug-in electric hybrid a year ago. I was replacing my ‘96 4Runner… initially I test drove a new 4Runner and intended to buy the 2021 model. When I drove it… not totally a knock on it, but it felt almost exactly the same as my ‘96 just with a more plush interior. Sales rep basically said “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.” There’s something to be said for that— my ‘96 still drives great (and I’ve kept it, but had to upgrade for safety features due to having a kid) but ultimately if I’m buying a brand new car I expect… more. Same crappy mpg after 25 years? No thanks.

X5 came on my radar with it being a full sized SUV with a plug-in hybrid option. The hybrid MSRP was like.. 3k higher than the non hybrid, but came with a $7500 tax credit, so actually ended up being *cheaper* than the traditional ICE model. The interior and exterior are identical to the regular model. It has the option (via a button) to drive in electric only mode. Range is very short for electric-only, only 30-40 miles, but for my daily commute + a couple errands I can do my entire day without tapping the gas tank (which holds the same amount as the traditional model). It takes about 24 hours to charge (via a charger that plugs into a regular ol’ 120v outlet) from being totally depleted, but in reality I start most mornings with a completely full battery. Power is less than if you drive it in hybrid mode, but still light years ahead of what I was used to. Hybrid mode will absolutely fly… it actually has more HP since the electric augments the gas engine. There’s zero delay between hitting the gas pedal and accelerating. It’s silent. It’s smooth. I absolutely love it.

If you drive totally electric, it averages about 3 miles per kWh (it measures it). Since I pay about 9c per kWh, it comes out to about 3 cents/mile. So for a dollar of electricity I get about 33 miles. If you assume that gas costs $3 a gallon, it’s the equivalent to getting about 99 MPG cost-wise for in-city daily driving.

For longer trips, it doesn’t hold up as well but any time you brake or aren’t accelerating you’re recapturing energy. I have done a couple 500 mile trips and it averaged about 28-29 mpg for the trip. For a full size suv, I’m not complaining.

Truth is, if I don’t take a long trip, I go 3-4 months between filling up.. and I usually
fill up when I get down to 3/8 of a tank.

Last thing I’ve noticed— anytime I pull into the garage, with my old car I’d hold my breath getting out and walking into the house to avoid getting a headache from the fumes. If I’m driving electric, you can run it for half an hour in an enclosed garage and there are zero fumes. It’s something I never ever thought about before, but the absence of those fumes is very noticeable. You literally can’t tell the car was running; even the hood of the vehicle is cool to the touch.

I have no illusions that I’m saving the planet. But when you make the experience of using less fuel not only cheaper, but more luxurious feeling, you’ll win more customers. Fingers crossed it continues to be this good long-term but I have zero regrets regarding my purchase.
 
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Bigblue2023 said:
Now is the time to buy a gas guzzling classic and hold onto it. Mark my words, there will be a covid vaccine like push to get everyone in an electric car within the next 10 years. It will start with incentives, which will be the carrot before the stick. We will rapidly cross over to charging stations and closing gas stations.

15 to 20 years from now, there will be nearly no gas car infrastructure. The so called “climate crises” will push us to do unreasonable things at a rapid pace.
Click to expand...
He ain't lying... people in the know think gas stations will only be for 18 wheelers.
 
^ I love cars/trucks….I hear you. Have one extremely collectible sports car, am close to buying another (that is a hair less collectible). Drive a 6.2 Silverado as a daily. Love stick shifts. Love the sound of revs….have since I was a kid. One of my sons is crazy about them too, love it.

That said, not anti EV in some cases mainly from a 0-60 perspective, but won’t replace ICE for me.

The interesting thing to me about a full on push for EV is the middle and lower income sectors of our population. They *really* don’t give a crap about it and are infinitely more concerned with cheap transportation. And they aren’t moving to mass transit either. I own a business in the west end of louisville and have helped several of my employees but cars….$3-6K cars that they can work on and keep running. Getting them out of the buy here/pay here racket.

At any rate, those folks aren’t buying “home chargers” or 4K batteries *ever*. I just think there is going to be a balance in the future and I do not think EV will kill off ICE. Changing political tides etc….we just need to get to the point that the best tech wins organically without crazy ass subsidies….let the market take its course.

Just my thoughts.
 
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Rex Kwon Do said:
^ I love cars/trucks….I hear you. Have one extremely collectible sports car, am close to buying another (that is a hair less collectible). Drive a 6.2 Silverado as a daily. Love stick shifts. Love the sound of revs….have since I was a kid. One of my sons is crazy about them too, love it.

That said, not anti EV in some cases mainly from a 0-60 perspective, but won’t replace ICE for me.

The interesting thing to me about a full on push for EV is the middle and lower income sectors of our population. They *really* don’t give a crap about it and are infinitely more concerned with cheap transportation. And they aren’t moving to mass transit either. I own a business in the west end of louisville and have helped several of my employees but cars….$3-6K cars that they can work on and keep running. Getting them out of the buy here/pay here racket.

At any rate, those folks aren’t buying “home chargers” or 4K batteries *ever*. I just think there is going to be a balance in the future and I do not think EV will kill off ICE. Changing political tides etc….we just need to get to the point that the best tech wins organically without crazy ass subsidies….let the market take its course.

Just my thoughts.
Click to expand...
Plus the oil companies aren't going to go down without a fight.
 
Rex Kwon Do said:
^ I love cars/trucks….I hear you. Have one extremely collectible sports car, am close to buying another (that is a hair less collectible). Drive a 6.2 Silverado as a daily. Love stick shifts. Love the sound of revs….have since I was a kid. One of my sons is crazy about them too, love it.

That said, not anti EV in some cases mainly from a 0-60 perspective, but won’t replace ICE for me.

The interesting thing to me about a full on push for EV is the middle and lower income sectors of our population. They *really* don’t give a crap about it and are infinitely more concerned with cheap transportation. And they aren’t moving to mass transit either. I own a business in the west end of louisville and have helped several of my employees but cars….$3-6K cars that they can work on and keep running. Getting them out of the buy here/pay here racket.

At any rate, those folks aren’t buying “home chargers” or 4K batteries *ever*. I just think there is going to be a balance in the future and I do not think EV will kill off ICE. Changing political tides etc….we just need to get to the point that the best tech wins organically without crazy ass subsidies….let the market take its course.

Just my thoughts.
Click to expand...
I agree completely. Let's take away all of the subsidies for oil and corn and let these two compete with each other on an even playing field. When the price of gas is $8 a gallon and electric is eight cents a KW, then we can see which one will win. People would be flocking to the dealerships to trade their Suburban in for a Chevy Bolt. But that isn't the world we live in. Oil companies own the political process in the US, and it is going to slow down EV adoption. The token "tax credit" nonsense is great for that person who buys a $100,000 Tesla, but it is pretty much useless for the person looking to get into a $27,000 Nissan. They don't have the Tax liability to take advantage of the full amount.

Before the used car market went crazy, it was easy to buy a 2012-2013 Nissan Leaf for $3-4,000 dollars. Consistently rated one of the most reliable cars on the road. Almost no maintenance, and the fuel cost on it would have probably been under $30 a month. It would take some time, but it would charge from a standard home outlet. For those low-income folks, this kind of car would be a miracle because it would represent reliable, cheap transportation. At some point, it is going to need a new battery, but that is something that can be planned and saved for. Not the unexpected, I woke up today and it won't start and now the repair bill is going to cost me $1500 kind of problems.
 
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rudd1 said:
-oil/food are required for national security interests...ev(at this point) are not.

-ev's are and have been status symbols for white people...like most new gadgetry, not a new thing.

-not anti EV per se. prolly buy one in the next few years. But I'll always have an ice vehicle in the stable.
Click to expand...
I want to see electric heavy equipment and electric tractors. They better have some damn big generators.
 
It should be noted that, around the world, legislation and technology have already been introduced in a bid tackle this issue.

In the European Union and U.K., for example, all new electric and hybrid vehicles will have to use an acoustic vehicle alerting system, or AVAS, from July 1. This will build upon and broaden previous regulations which came into force in 2019.

Under the rules, the AVAS is supposed to kick in and make noise when a vehicle's speed is under 20 kilometers per hour (around 12 miles per hour) and when it's in reverse.

According to a statement from the U.K. government in 2019, the sound "can be temporarily deactivated by the driver if judged necessary."

The EU's regulation says the noise made by the AVAS "shall be a continuous sound that provides information to the pedestrians and other road users of a vehicle in operation."

www.google.com

As electric vehicle sales surge, discussions are now turning to noise and safety

With the number of electric vehicles on the planet's roads increasing, society will need to adapt.
www.google.com www.google.com
 
rudd1 said:
-oil/food are required for national security interests...ev(at this point) are not.

-ev's are and have been status symbols for white people...like most new gadgetry, not a new thing.

-not anti EV per se. prolly buy one in the next few years. But I'll always have an ice vehicle in the stable.
Click to expand...
I agree. I'm only looking at one now because I want to replace one of my cars that has almost 100K miles on it.

What really made my mind up about getting one was after I test drove a Tesla last year and it blew me away. Amazing acceleration without any hesitation, plus the "gadgetry".

I went yesterday to let my wife test drive one, but no one has them. They sold all the cars and don't expect the 2022's for a few more weeks.
 
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Perrin75 said:
If it is fully charged, the car can be used as a home generator for up to three days.
Click to expand...
That's what they are advertising at 30kWh/day. If you're extra conservative, they say you could even get a week out of it.

The reality is this, I have a 2300 sq ft home. I know that's on the low end of Paddock ballers. This is my previous year:

qvKpkmc.png


Divide all of those bars by 30 to get the daily average. I have a gas furnace in use during the winter. They are coming after natural gas too. It's already happening in parts of the country. Those bars will be larger than the summer months if I have an all electric house.

Which months will I be able to get three days worth of electricity from that battery? The months that I don't use heat or air.


Perrin75 said:
When the price of gas is $8 a gallon and electric is eight cents a KW
Click to expand...


Why would you think that electric will remain at eight cents? If you are at eight, then you have the cheapest energy in the country. How much extra demand has to be there before you no longer enjoy those rates?

How many electric vehicles equal the usage of one average home? Remember that the average home is that lowball 30 kWh/day. You stated that your personal usage was $30-40/month. At the rates you quoted, that would be ~10 kWh/day. Then, add at least two vehicles/ household.

Do you see how much additional pressure will be added to the grid?

I'm in Paducah, this is my current rate:

RBzAUae.png



That rate doesn't include any taxes. At least the $8 gas includes the taxes.

We haven't had to ration energy in Kentucky, but those days are ahead. We haven't had a "please don't drive today because meemaw needs heat or a/c. It's coming.





A cousin out in Cali's rates:

Ei9qQ96.png






Perrin75 said:
At some point, it is going to need a new battery, but that is something that can be planned and saved for
Click to expand...

Perrin75 said:
For those low-income folks
Click to expand...
Yep, low income folks are known for their capacity for socking away several thousand dollars for battery replacement.
 
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I see us progressing toward electric but not done with gas by 2030. It takes time. And right now the only people that can afford it are the well off. Until you get a Henry Ford of electric cars there will need to be gas cars. Maybe we'll progress towards more of them being hybrids.

I would love to have an electric car but just can't quite get there right now. I drive a 3/4 ton truck most of the time.
 
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Another question, since I live in deer country, what happens when a Tesla or other electrical vehicle hits a deer? We're not knocking out electrical engines are we? I saw a little Prius hit a deer once and it totaled both of them.
 
BigBlueDave said:
That's what they are advertising at 30kWh/day. If you're extra conservative, they say you could even get a week out of it.

The reality is this, I have a 2300 sq ft home. I know that's on the low end of Paddock ballers. This is my previous year:

qvKpkmc.png


Divide all of those bars by 30 to get the daily average. I have a gas furnace in use during the winter. They are coming after natural gas too. It's already happening in parts of the country. Those bars will be larger than the summer months if I have an all electric house.

Which months will I be able to get three days worth of electricity from that battery? The months that I don't use heat or air.






Why would you think that electric will remain at eight cents? If you are at eight, then you have the cheapest energy in the country. How much extra demand has to be there before you no longer enjoy those rates?

How many electric vehicles equal the usage of one average home? Remember that the average home is that lowball 30 kWh/day. You stated that your personal usage was $30-40/month. At the rates you quoted, that would be ~10 kWh/day. Then, add at least two vehicles/ household.

Do you see how much additional pressure will be added to the grid?

I'm in Paducah, this is my current rate:

RBzAUae.png



That rate doesn't include any taxes. At least the $8 gas includes the taxes.

We haven't had to ration energy in Kentucky, but those days are ahead. We haven't had a "please don't drive today because meemaw needs heat or a/c. It's coming.





A cousin out in Cali's rates:

Ei9qQ96.png









Yep, low income folks are known for their capacity for socking away several thousand dollars for battery replacement.
Click to expand...

There is a whole lot in this post, and I don't even know where to start. First, no one is suggesting you power your house from an F-150. Do you know what a backup home generator is? It's there to keep the lights on, the fridge cold and the AC running when the power goes out. That is what the Lightning can do. And the big point is the fact that it can do it at all. How long can the current a regular ICE F-150 power a house? This is an amazing technology that literally will change certain aspects of the world. 10 years from now, if we have a natural disaster think of the lives that could be saved because a majority of folks with have a backup generator in their driveway.

The whole conversation about the cost of electricity was about the fact that Oil/Corn are incredibly subsidized and that it is not a free and open market. Yes, there is a current federal incentive to buy an electric car, but there also are incentives to keep buying ICE cars as well because the fuel cost is kept artificially low.

The grid can also handle a massive increase in EVs because the vast majority of charging occurs over-night when the draw on the grid is low. States like California have already established special rate incentives to encourage this. I have software built into both my car and charger to tell it to charge when rates are low. But if it becomes too much of a problem, I can install solar panels and charge my car completely off the grid if I want. I could literally take my monthly fuel costs to zero if I want.

As for used cars, you completely missed my point. Let's say I bought a 2013 Leaf and a 2013 Sentra and drove each car the average of 12,000 miles a year for the next decade. During that time with the Leaf, I am going to have to replace the battery which I am going to estimate at $4000, put new tires on a couple of times and replace the brake pads and spend about $30 a month for fuel. With the Sentra I'm going to have annual maintenance involving oil changes, filter replacement, spark plugs, etc. Things like the starter, fuel pump, water pump, etc are going to need replaced. As the engine ages it will need more maintenance. There is good chance the transmission will need replaced. So, total cost of ownership, which do you think will be more expensive? Meanwhile, I am probably saving at least $100 a month on gas. That savings alone is $12,000 over 10 years. They could buy a new battery and a second car with that money alone.
 
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CAT Scratch FVR said:
Green is a money grab.
All for doing best for environment but battery powered anything is not good for the environment, when you throw in power needed to produce, maintain, excavate, etc. Nuclear best. Go!
Click to expand...
Right - it doesn't do any good to encourage EVs if they power them with electricity made from coal.
I read somewhere recently that alt energy combined (wind, solar, biomass, hydro etc. ) added up is the #2 source of power. Nat gas is a useful bridge fuel better than coal but not totally clean by any stretch.
As for nuclear power, conventional nucs have been priced out of the market which is why no one is building any new ones. However an exciting new possibility is the TerraPower designs that Bill Gates has invested in. It's a lot cheaper to build and cheaper to operate then conventional nucs and it has less issue with spent fuel rods.

www.cnbc.com

How Bill Gates' company TerraPower is building next-generation nuclear power

How TerraPower, co-founded by Bill Gates, is designing next gen nuclear power plants that it says are safer, cheaper and more efficient.
www.cnbc.com www.cnbc.com
 
Perrin75 said:
There is a whole lot in this post, and I don't even know where to start. First, no one is suggesting you power your house from an F-150. Do you know what a backup home generator is? It's there to keep the lights on, the fridge cold and the AC running when the power goes out. That is what the Lightning can do. And the big point is the fact that it can do it at all. How long can the current a regular ICE F-150 power a house? This is an amazing technology that literally will change certain aspects of the world. 10 years from now, if we have a natural disaster think of the lives that could be saved because a majority of folks with have a backup generator in their driveway.

The whole conversation about the cost of electricity was about the fact that Oil/Corn are incredibly subsidized and that it is not a free and open market. Yes, there is a current federal incentive to buy an electric car, but there also are incentives to keep buying ICE cars as well because the fuel cost is kept artificially low.

The grid can also handle a massive increase in EVs because the vast majority of charging occurs over-night when the draw on the grid is low. States like California have already established special rate incentives to encourage this. I have software built into both my car and charger to tell it to charge when rates are low. But if it becomes too much of a problem, I can install solar panels and charge my car completely off the grid if I want. I could literally take my monthly fuel costs to zero if I want.

As for used cars, you completely missed my point. Let's say I bought a 2013 Leaf and a 2013 Sentra and drove each car the average of 12,000 miles a year for the next decade. During that time with the Leaf, I am going to have to replace the battery which I am going to estimate at $4000, put new tires on a couple of times and replace the brake pads and spend about $30 a month for fuel. With the Sentra I'm going to have annual maintenance involving oil changes, filter replacement, spark plugs, etc. Things like the starter, fuel pump, water pump, etc are going to need replaced. As the engine ages it will need more maintenance. There is good chance the transmission will need replaced. So, total cost of ownership, which do you think will be more expensive? Meanwhile, I am probably saving at least $100 a month on gas. That savings alone is $12,000 over 10 years. They could buy a new battery and a second car with that money alone.
Click to expand...

The load on the grid is lower at night, but we’re eliminating power plants with the thinking that at night the load drops. If it doesn’t drop there is an extreme power crunch. The price of electricity will jump, a lot.
Im not against EV’s, I was looking at an EV Polaris Ranger today online, but it’s not all milk and honey. There is a downside, and is it worth it to people. People went from the horse to the automobile because it was more reliable and made life easier, not sure this is yet.
Also, what do we do with the batteries? I’m assuming it’s a lithium battery, I’m afraid that’s going to be a hidden cost to dispose. I took some old power tool batteries to a battery shop. They would buy the old batteries as long as they weren’t lithium, and they would not take them because of the cost of disposal.
 
Deeeefense said:
Right - it doesn't do any good to encourage EVs if they power them with electricity made from coal.
I read somewhere recently that alt energy combined (wind, solar, biomass, hydro etc. ) added up is the #2 source of power. Nat gas is a useful bridge fuel better than coal but not totally clean by any stretch.
As for nuclear power, conventional nucs have been priced out of the market which is why no one is building any new ones. However an exciting new possibility is the TerraPower designs that Bill Gates has invested in. It's a lot cheaper to build and cheaper to operate then conventional nucs and it has less issue with spent fuel rods.

www.cnbc.com

How Bill Gates' company TerraPower is building next-generation nuclear power

How TerraPower, co-founded by Bill Gates, is designing next gen nuclear power plants that it says are safer, cheaper and more efficient.
www.cnbc.com www.cnbc.com
Click to expand...
EV's aren't being encouraged just for climate change. I like them because you don't have to stop at gas stations, change oil, spark plugs, tune ups, etc. EV's aren't maintenance free, but certainly low maintenance. IIRC, the salesman told me the brakes were guaranteed for 100K miles, but don't quote me on that.

I test drove one last year and was thoroughly impressed with how smooth they drove and the reaction time.

The other day, I was surprised when I did a search for "The Best EV On The Market" and the first story that rated them listed the Tesla Model S was not only the best EV out there, but could be argued it's the best car on the market...period.
 
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Bill Derington said:
The load on the grid is lower at night, but we’re eliminating power plants with the thinking that at night the load drops. If it doesn’t drop there is an extreme power crunch. The price of electricity will jump, a lot.
Im not against EV’s, I was looking at an EV Polaris Ranger today online, but it’s not all milk and honey. There is a downside, and is it worth it to people. People went from the horse to the automobile because it was more reliable and made life easier, not sure this is yet.
Also, what do we do with the batteries? I’m assuming it’s a lithium battery, I’m afraid that’s going to be a hidden cost to dispose. I took some old power tool batteries to a battery shop. They would buy the old batteries as long as they weren’t lithium, and they would not take them because of the cost of disposal.
Click to expand...
I agree, but nothing is perfect and there's a downside to everything. Even when "people went from the horse to the automobile", I'm sure there were plenty of skeptics.
 
Chuckinden said:
I agree, but nothing is perfect and there's a downside to everything. Even when "people went from the horse to the automobile", I'm sure there were plenty of skeptics.
Click to expand...
Of course there is, but is the downside better than what it’s replacing?
I may be wrong, but the Govt didn’t have to eliminate Hay production to get people to swap
 
Joey Rupption said:
Tesla sold 308,600 in the same quarter.

While most automakers were hamstrung by the chip shortage (and waiting on specific chips programmed by their suppliers), Tesla took on whatever chips would work and used their own software engineers to rewrite the software to accommodate different chips than they had originally planned for.
Click to expand...
Last quarter, GM upped their electric vehicle delivery to 457.

Tesla delivered 310,048.
 
Aren't Tesla's statistically speaking the safest cars on the road due to their accident prevention capabilities? So even though it might be scary that you could potentially be locked in a burning car, you're much less likely to be hit by some other car?
 
Rebelfreedomeagle said:
It’s not just Tesla, ALL electric cars are fire hazards. If some of the electricity leaks out it sets everything on fire.

car-explosion.gif
Click to expand...

Not all just Hybrids, EVs like Tesla have the lowest probability:

  • Hybrid vehicles: 3,474 fires per 100K sales
  • Gas vehicles: 1,529 fires per 100K sales
  • Electric vehicles: 25 fires per 100K sales
ndakotalaw.com

Do Electric Cars Catch Fire More Than Gas-Powered Vehicles?

Car manufacturers must be held liable when they put unsafe vehicles on the market and people are injured. Contact Larson Law Firm today.
ndakotalaw.com ndakotalaw.com
 
WayneDougan said:
Aren't Tesla's statistically speaking the safest cars on the road due to their accident prevention capabilities? So even though it might be scary that you could potentially be locked in a burning car, you're much less likely to be hit by some other car?
Click to expand...

2024 IIHS Top Safety Picks

These vehicles earn top marks in 2024 IIHS evaluations.
www.iihs.org www.iihs.org
www.caranddriver.com

The Safest New Cars for 2023

Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, and others conquer stricter criteria to earn an IIHS Top Safety Pick+ award in 2023.
www.caranddriver.com www.caranddriver.com
 
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