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Anyone else hate the 8-man rotation?

Well I am probably different than most folks on here, but I wish he would have stayed with the platoon system when Poy got hurt. Just plug in Hawkins or Willis depending on the opponent. Yes I know there is a gap between Willis and Alex. But I like the way other teams got tired facing the dept and fresh faces. I think Cal is a great coach and will win either way. I just think each five can get used to playing together and be more successful than mixing and matching. I am not losing any confidence in Ulis either. That kid looked like to me last night that he might be a little under the weather or injured.
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Originally posted by UKWildcats#8:
1. If we had played the platoon system strictly last night...we lose. No question. I do not want to hear anyone argue otherwise because if you do, you do not understand basketball.
Really curious as to what evidence you have to support such a statement. Last night was the first game we really did not platoon at all. One exchange for a minute or so and that was it and the rest of the night was regular substitution patterns. So what else was different last night other than abandoning the platoon system, we damn near lost and really probably should have. No way to tell how the game would have unfolded had we played more Of the same style we have played pretty much all year. To say we definitely lose, sorry you have no ground to stand on there.
 
Originally posted by ukfan03:
I like the platoon but here is my suggestion. I feel the first platoon should've stayed in at the first tv timeout. They were playing great and should've been rewarded until they cooled off. Anytime a certain platoon is playing great they should stay in until the other team makes the adjustments.
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Yes please!
 
Originally posted by JonathanW:
I too think the platoon will be back (next game). But I too, don't care for the 8-man rotation. Why? Because we have a really good top 5, but not significantly better than teams like Duke, Arizona, Wisconsin. Our big advantage is the 2nd 5 (even after the Poy injury), and that we can wear teams down going in the 4-5 minute blocks.
Agree completely. If UK cuts their rotation, then I'm afraid Duke is now the favorite to win the whole thing, with UK in a tossup between these other teams you mentioned to see who else might be in contention.

The problem here is that by cutting the rotation, Cal is now in a situation where his core guys need to be able to function like a well-oiled machine. Because you know that teams like Wisconsin etc. will be doing just that come March. But in order to do that he needs to keep cutting the rotation because each additional body he plays beyond the starting 5 makes it more difficult to be cohesive and have everybody have a defined role that they excel at.

So it becomes a question of whether you want to utilize your bench freely (with the downside being not having a particularly cohesive unit) or concentrating on a core group (with the downside being the bench is demoralized and likely not dependable going forward along with becoming much more susceptible to issues like injuries, foul problems etc.)

The reason I liked the platoons so much was that you could have your cake and eat it too. What I mean by that is UK could not only play most of their bench (thereby not only making use of this team's greatest strength and advantage over their competition but also keeping people happy and involved), but if Cal developed them right, he would have not one, but TWO well-oiled machines.

Having two completely functioning units, potentially with different game plans and styles of play, would make it virtually impossible for an opposing team to successfully game plan around.

For Cal to throw that away I think is a serious mistake, which is why I have been so alarmed by how he handled the Ole Miss game. After all the talk of Camp Cal and how they spent most of their time scrimmaging 5-on-5, I was actually hoping to see Derek Willis in one of the platoons and have UK go back to playing two full platoons, which has been demonstrated to be effective this year. Instead he's decided to go the other way, which to date has not resulted in any increase in execution (either offensively or defensively) but actually the opposite.

To me the fact that UK was unable to gain separation from Ole Miss during the time when Cal was liberally substituting and trying different lineups was not a fluke, but entirely predictable. Even though many of the games since Alex has been injured have been blowouts, the separation generally occurred early in the game when the platoons were still largely in place. The more Cal meddled with the lineup and went away from the platoons, however, the less effective UK as a whole has become IMO and you can see that in the margins.

If UK continues down this path of cutting their rotations, they can still win the title, but it's going to be much more difficult and much more subject to chance IMO. I would expect this team to struggle during the regular season, just like last year's team struggled during the regular season (and was dependent on heroic shots & unexpected contributions from bench during the tournament just to get where they ended up). Because frankly I don't know that this year's core is any better than last year's core players. (if anything they might be worse since they really don't have reliable scorers like Randle and Young).
 
Once again, JPS nailed it.

Not using the platoon system is negating the greatest strength this team has. What makes it so special, and hard for opponents is the fact that they have to deal with 2 different paces of play and 2 different defenses. The change of pace makes it almost impossible for the other team to get settled. It causes them to think to much and makes them a half step slow on defense. If we go away from platooning it would be a really big mistake and it would take away the advantages we have over the Duke's and Wisconsins of the world. I think that was proven last night. It was actually OUR GUYS that looked gassed. I truly, truly hope this was just a one time thing. If its not we are going to lose and more than once, especially on the road. Cal usually plays to his strengths but can also be damn stubborn as well.
 
I want the best players on the floor. I don't mind the platoons, but I don't see any merit in taking out the first 5 when they just ran up a 12-0 start. You can still wear teams down without mass substitutions.
 
Originally posted by KumarCat:
Platoon doesn't really work with 9. Have to have 10 or it's not really a platoon. We havnt platooned since Alex went out. Now we just sub a lot.
Well, what's resulted is really a platoon system at the guard and center position with Lyles and Willie splitting up Poythress's minutes and sometimes Lee gets squeezed out if he's having a bad night or Willie is on fire.
 
Regarding the point about whether the core of this year's team is better than last:

This year is better simply because we've bought in defensively. Last year we put a guy out there in James Young who had no desire to guard. The twins normally didn't. And Randle had limitations against longer players.

We have no such limitations this year defensively. (Assuming what we saw Tuesday night was an outlier.)

I agree with the tenor of JPS's post in that the "platoons" or mass subs do make us better. But whatever system you're playing--platoons, traditional subbing, playing five guys for 40 minutes, whatever--you need to have the individual players performing at a high level. We've come back to earth the last two games because we've gotten poor individual performances from certain guys. Dakari. WCS. Ulis against Ole Miss. It's the first time this year we've seen some inconsistency, and to me that's far more important than the platoons. We need these guys to play at a high level and the substitution thing will take care of itself.
 
Originally posted by Clive Gollings:

"You make a substitution and get your new platoon in, and one or two of those guys aren't ready to play[/B]. All of a sudden you turn around and it's 18-12. All of a sudden, they look around and say, 'we can play with these guys,'" Cal said. "Two of the guys in the first half that went in with that substitution and that platoon and didn't play well, they weren't into the game, they had no energy, they had no fight, they were just playing."
If it was only a couple of guys not ready to play, that is telling. Was talking to a fellow a couple of days ago. I don't think we will go through the season undefeated, and he does - his reasoning is if you are this deep, what are the chances that all 10 guys, or even a majority of them, will have a bad night in the same game? Putting aside the sometimes contagious nature of bad play/effort, he made a good point......But now I hear this from Cal. If all it takes for us to give a mediocre performance is one or two guys not showing up, we're not nearly as invincible as some think.....
 
One guy in this sport can make a massive difference. If one guy is unstoppable offensively he can carry a team.

The same goes with the inverse. If you've got one guy the other team can exploit then you open yourself up to being vulnerable. The other night they really picked on Tyler Ulis. That one player's inability to perform at a high level in that game was massively important.

The sport of basketball is always lauded as a "team sport." And it is, obviously, in so many ways. But it's also tremendously contingent on the individual.
This post was edited on 1/8 12:00 PM by Joneslab
 
Originally posted by Joneslab:


Regarding the point about whether the core of this year's team is better than last:

This year is better simply because we've bought in defensively. Last year we put a guy out there in James Young who had no desire to guard. The twins normally didn't. And Randle had limitations against longer players.

I'd argue it's easier to buy in defensively if you always have fresh legs., which is something the platoon system provides.

When guys are asked to play extended minutes with constantly changing lineups, it's harder to buy in and give full effort every play, and harder to be effective defensively for sure. And the results can be seen in the numbers.
 
Originally posted by uk_fan_in_tn:

I want the best players on the floor. I don't mind the platoons, but I don't see any merit in taking out the first 5 when they just ran up a 12-0 start. You can still wear teams down without mass substitutions.
This is a great soundbite but not really representative of the situation.

The blue squad indeed got off to a 12-0 start (by the 17:35 mark), but Cal did NOT pull them at that point. Instead he did left them in until the 15:44 mark.

Boxscore, look near bottom for play-by-play details including times

Cal pulled the blue squad with UK leading 18-7, after Ole Miss grabbed an offensive rebound and scored. So actually after the impressive 12-0 start, the Blue squad allowed Ole Miss to outscore them 7-6 and IMO was starting to show signs that their run was up.

So I didn't have any problem whatsoever with Cal putting the white squad in at the time. It looked like the blue squad was starting to slow down some and it was a good time to let the white squad take a turn and let the blues recharge. Of course the problem is the white squad got bombed, which led to Calipari completely abandoning the system altogether.

FWIW, in theory I agree with you about playing the best players on the floor. It's just that IMO the actual question at hand is how effective is the 'best player' on his sixth minute vs. 'the next best player' at that position in his first minute of play. (Or in terms of platoons the blue platoons 6-10th minute vs. the white platoon's 1-5th minutes) If the answer is the next best player is close or nearly as good or better, it's probably a good move to sub in, even if it's just for a short time to allow the 'best player' to recover.

And while each player is different, IMO if a player is truly going all out on every play, then 5 minutes is about the limit that someone can go full throttle and remain effective. Of course if they can prove they can go longer, then by all means they should. (and the platoon system can accommodate this, simply by playing one platoon relatively more minutes than the other. For example play the blues 6-7 and the whites 3-4 minutes if that's what is the most effective)
This post was edited on 1/8 12:40 PM by JPScott
 
As usual, JPS killing it.

The "platoon" system allows guys to be more efficient than a "traditional" system (actually don't love the term "platoon" but don't have a better suggestion). The whole "stats per 34 minutes" extrapolation is crap (and Cal knows it) because nobody is as effective in minutes 30-34 as in minutes 1-5. It'd be like saying that because you can do 10 pushups in 10 seconds, you can do 100 pushups in 100 seconds, which is of course unlikely to be the case. But this is marketing, and it allows Cal to sell the players to the NBA.

For example, one might say that Trey Lyles is "better" than Marcus Lee and so deserves to play more. But I would counter, to borrow Jon's point, that Marcus isn't only more effective in his first minute than Trey is in his fifth, but also that allowing Trey to rest while Marcus plays allows BOTH of them to be more effective in the second half.

At the end of the day, I'm not sure we have an individual player better than Jahlil Okafor. I'm not sure Ulis or Andrew are better individually than Tyus Jones. I'm confident we don't have a player with the offensive versatility of Frank Kaminsky. This team is as good as it is because of depth and consistency across the depth. It's a cliche, but there really isn't that big of a drop off between the first 5 and second 5 (even if you add Willis in place of Poy).

The combination of increased efficiency, fresher legs at the end of games, and ability to implement two distinct styles of play (at least defensively) is what can make this team historically special. Otherwise they're just another really good team (which is still great, but not the point of this particular thread).
 
JP, that is some really good stuff. I was not buying into the narrative that our white team totally killed our momentum and thus that is why we were in a barn burner for the entire game. Being at the game is a little harder for me to follow than watching on TV regarding the ebb and flow of the game. I knew our white platoon was pulled fast and they gave up some points but that is not the first time this has happened. In the early part of the season the Blue team was starting out really slow and the white team seemed to come in and bring the intensity which in turn motivated the blue team when they got back in.

The white team was completely abandoned after giving up an 8-0 run in just a little over a minute but as you alluded to after building a 15-2 lead the blue team exited with an 18-7 lead. Ole miss had already knocked down a couple of shots and were showing signs of life before the white team stepped on the floor.

To your point of fatigue and not being efficient on defensive or offensive, I wholeheartedly agree with you. We were stuck on 23 points from the 13.32 mark to the 8:15 mark when booker finally hit two free throws. We proceeded to get outscored 15-3 over a 6 minute stretch to get down 30-26 all while not platooning.

We are a really good college basketball team but not utilizing the system Cal put in place dating back to the summer games we are no different than the other good college teams. The NCAA will be a crap shoot as it always is but our chances of winning it all are definitely higher if we utilize the platoon system vs the regular substitution patterns. Was not sure if was a big fan of the platoon early in the year or not but it definitely grew on me and for this team anyway, I would play no other way.
 
So the Blue squad exited with an 11 point lead instead of 12. I will just have to agree to disagree that getting outscored by 1 point means they were doing wearing down. Surely no one thinks we can outscore a team every second/minute of every game in the SEC.

18-7 was still a huge lead, job well done. All of us would take an 18-7 lead from our first platoon in every game.

That said, we do the same thing every game, so no one should be surprised Cal stuck with it.

He will probably stick with it through most of the regular season. If we get up big in the tourney though I doubt he ruins the run/chemistry the group on the court is showing by subbing 4 guys. I think he will be more traditional then.
 
If you can play 9 guys who are nearly equal in skill, the obvious payoff is intensity. Guys are always fresh, and they are never overly worried about foul trouble so they CAN play had every second on the court. And they know that they MUST play hard because there is another guy ready and waiting to take that spot if they don't. Just as important, it gives guys a chance to go hard in practice against teammates who can really challenge them and force them to get better.

As the gap in skill between a player and his replacement grows, it becomes harder to portion the minutes optimally. The better player going at 90% effort might still be more effective than replacement going at 100%. It appears clear that the biggest gap between a player and his backup is between Willie and Lee. And Lee tends to be the one that fails to go 100% more often than Willie which is why Willie has gotten a lot of Marcus's minutes this year. I don't think Cal secretly wants to go to an 8 man rotation. He definitely says he wants to keep playing all 9. But as we saw last night, he won't hesitate to sit Marcus if he doesn't come into the game ready to go all out. It's a short leash because Willie is basically amazing this year. I hope that Marcus responds by busting it every second he's on the court. If he doesn't, we'll see an 8 man unit more and more (as long as Willie keeps dominating on defense the way he has thus far).

It also looks like, with AP out, Cal is going to 3 guards more often when Trey is on the bench. And as good as our four guards are, it usually isn't hard to find 3 who are playing well on any given night.
 
Originally posted by UKWildcats#8:
So the Blue squad exited with an 11 point lead instead of 12. I will just have to agree to disagree that getting outscored by 1 point means they were doing wearing down. Surely no one thinks we can outscore a team every second/minute of every game in the SEC.

18-7 was still a huge lead, job well done. All of us would take an 18-7 lead from our first platoon in every game.

That said, we do the same thing every game, so no one should be surprised Cal stuck with it.

He will probably stick with it through most of the regular season. If we get up big in the tourney though I doubt he ruins the run/chemistry the group on the court is showing by subbing 4 guys. I think he will be more traditional then.
the narrative on the board against the platoon was the white team came in and allowed Ole Miss to start hitting shots, gain confidence etc. They had knocked down a three and a two before the white team came in and following the TV timeout picked up where they left off on the blue team.

We have had games where the blue team did not perform well at all (starting out) but they were not totally abandoned like the white team was this time around. Maybe it is just a coincidence in the one game we totally abandoned the platoon system we got our toughest game to date.

Will see how games play out from here but I do agree with JP. Playing a regular 8 man rotation is not the best way to go with this team. There just isn't that big of a degree of separation between the players and we are better served playing the platoon style and letting players give it all for four minute stretches with tweaks added to the platoon as necessary.
 
Originally posted by johnnyrockets:
As usual, JPS killing it.

The "platoon" system allows guys to be more efficient than a "traditional" system (actually don't love the term "platoon" but don't have a better suggestion). The whole "stats per 34 minutes" extrapolation is crap (and Cal knows it) because nobody is as effective in minutes 30-34 as in minutes 1-5. It'd be like saying that because you can do 10 pushups in 10 seconds, you can do 100 pushups in 100 seconds, which is of course unlikely to be the case. But this is marketing, and it allows Cal to sell the players to the NBA.

For example, one might say that Trey Lyles is "better" than Marcus Lee and so deserves to play more. But I would counter, to borrow Jon's point, that Marcus isn't only more effective in his first minute than Trey is in his fifth, but also that allowing Trey to rest while Marcus plays allows BOTH of them to be more effective in the second half.

At the end of the day, I'm not sure we have an individual player better than Jahlil Okafor. I'm not sure Ulis or Andrew are better individually than Tyus Jones. I'm confident we don't have a player with the offensive versatility of Frank Kaminsky. This team is as good as it is because of depth and consistency across the depth. It's a cliche, but there really isn't that big of a drop off between the first 5 and second 5 (even if you add Willis in place of Poy).

The combination of increased efficiency, fresher legs at the end of games, and ability to implement two distinct styles of play (at least defensively) is what can make this team historically special. Otherwise they're just another really good team (which is still great, but not the point of this particular thread).
Thanks. You've summarized in a couple paragraphs a lot of what I've been trying to convey for a while now.

FWIW, one example of why I think the platoon is critical to the success of this particular team can be seen in the following graphs. Earlier, I was wondering if this year's UK team is on a historic pace in terms of winning margin.

cumulative_margin.jpg

Based on the above, this year's squad was on pace to be similar to UK's 1946-47 team, which just so happened to be one of (if not probably) the deepest UK team in history. But most of that was under the platoon for much of the time, albeit less and less since after Game 10 due to Alex Poythress' injury. But regardless, it appears that this year's UK team is indeed close to the best winning margins of any UK team. (All-time UK finish is denoted in brackets [ ] )

For comparison, below are Calipari's teams at UK.

cumulative_margin_calipari.jpg

What is alarming to me is not that we've started to see a drop, as based on general trends we should expect to see a gradual drop through the course of conference and tournament play.

But what really alarms me is that Calipari's 'great' team, 2009-10 and 2011-12 were behind this year's squad in scoring margin. The problem is that when I only think of the core five players (or top 7), I think the 2009-10 & 2011-12 clearly had more talent. If they lagged in terms of win %, why should I expect the 2014-15 team to do better ? The truth is I don't.

If Cal is to continue to abandon the platoon, then I no longer think this team is capable of being one of the all-time best. (say a win margin of 20-25) Instead I would expect them to drop down to a win margin of 10-15. Again still possible to win the title but with a significantly smaller margin of error.

And just to clarify for anyone curious, this is not just based on the macro stats above, this can be seen in micro stats as well (i.e. within the games the largest margins are accomplished early in the game when the platoons are mostly intact, but as the game progresses and Calipari moves more and more away from the platoon system, UK's efficiency and scoring margin get worse as well.)

I've just always been of the mindset that if you accumulate a lot of talent, it really doesn't help you unless you're willing to use it in it's most effective manner.




This post was edited on 1/10 7:32 AM by JPScott
 
Originally posted by JPScott:

I've just always been of the mindset that if you accumulate a lot of talent, it really doesn't help you unless you're willing to use it in it's most effective manner.
UK starting 5 vs Duke starting 5 - hard to call
UK starting 5 vs Wisconsin starting 5 - advantage UK, though it took a last second shot to beat them
UK starting 5 vs random Final 4 team - advantage UK, though close

UK top 10 vs anyone's starting 5 - historical advantage UK
 
I'm going to send this thread BTTT before it falls off the board, as I think this issue is still relevant after today's game.

FWIW, I do credit Cal for at least still going with 9 players, so at least he's still trying to utilize most of his depth (despite ignoring Hawkins and Willis).

FWIW, there are 3 ways one can play with a deep team. 1) use platoons to take advantage of your depth 2.) use your depth the best way you see how (i.e. depending on the situation in the game) or 3.) ignore your depth and only play a core set of starters plus maybe 2 or 3 subs as needed.

After the Ole Miss game I was concerned that Cal was headed toward Option 3, which while that is more in keeping with past Cal teams, I don't believe is the best use of the talent he has available to him on this team.

It appears now that Cal is now going with option 2, for much of the game. Better than Option 3 IMO so I am glad to see that.

The problem with Option 2, however is that with constantly shifting lineups, it's IMO difficult for the players to gain any consistency, difficult to get comfortable and really understand and execute your role. I think you see that some in UK's offensive execution, but more pronounced is it's effect on UK defensive execution, such as rotations etc.

I do still hope that UK can get back to full platoons, as frankly I like to see UK teams kicking people's ass. I just see them being able to do that without the platoon system. Not that it's going to work every rotation, or even every game. But I do think in the long run it gives this UK team its best chance at success.

But to do that, obviously UK will need to find a 10th man. Given all that, Derek Willis may just be the most critical player on UK's team this year.
 
On point again, JP. After today I think it's safe to say that "platooning" is a thing of the past. It's a shame because I think this team had the potential to be historically great with it. Option 2 is where the team is heading, which I also agree is the second-best option. I think this team will continue struggling to adjust to it, but by March we will be Final Four contenders once more - about on the same level as Florida last season. I don't see Cal giving Hawkins or Willis significant minutes for the rest of the season.

If you're a betting man, take UK's opponents (especially on the road) against the spread for the rest of the season. The computers will still have them as double digit favorites when considering the results from the beginning of the year - but this is a completely different team with the new rotation.
 
No, I don't hate it at all.
15-0
4 wins of top 20 teams.
Rated # 1
Trust in Cal.
 
Can't believe I am just now seeing this thread.

I have been complaining to people with whom I watch the games that I wish Cal would get back to the more strict platoon system. Listening to the talking heads/media and even fans saying the platoon system needs to be ditched and won't cut it in March, I thought I was in the distinct minority.

JPScott, I completely agree. So who's going to be brave, call in, and ask Cal about this on the coach's show?
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