A question for educators (or resident Paddock geniuses)

[elwood_blue]

In your opinion, can math and science aptitude be greatly increased in someone weak in those fields or is it a case of "either you got it or you don't"? My youngest son is a HS sophomore who is an A student in English, History, etc., but is a C student in subjects like Chemistry and Geometry. Of course, I think if he works his ass off he might be able to bring those up to low B's, but they just don't come naturally for him.
I'm hoping to steer him toward a field that has a professional accreditation, which for the most part are the STEM fields. I think English, History, Journalism, Psychology and similar degrees are worthless these days.
I'm kind of expecting some hilarious Paddock responses; thanks in advance for the serious ones.

This post was edited on 2/15 12:26 PM by elwood_blue

 

[Big Blue 1977]

Sure, people have an aptitude for some subjects and not others, but there's nothing innate about it. He has simply acquired the skills for English and History more easily than the others. If he can get an A in other courses, then he's probably not dumb. That said, if he's getting a C in certain courses, he is either (1) not doing the work in chemistry and geometry for whatever reason (2) lagging behind because the material has passed him by, and now, the foundational skills required of the current material are too far in the rearview mirror to make sense of what he's currently being asked to do. And so, he gets more and more behind and lost every class period.

If it's (1), then you need to have a talk with him. Don't assume that he's working hard in English and history; those might be really easy for him, so much so that he doesn't even have to try. If he's a strong reader and writer, those courses are going to be pretty comfortable without expending much energy If it's (2), then you need to sit down with the geometry and chemistry teachers and ask about how to get him up to speed. Can the teacher do this quickly? There's no way of knowing unless you know how far behind he is. Can his meeting with the teacher regularly get him where he needs to be, considering there are only 3-4 months left? Maybe, but you may need to get a tutor if he's really behind. What's more, even if the teachers are eager to meet with him after school regularly, they might not be able to, considering all of the superfluous crap they're tasked with. At any rate, the teachers will know best when he stopped "getting it," based on his grades' dips relative to the course outline. In courses like chemistry and geometry, if you miss the boat in one unit, you may not be able to make sense of any subsequent units, whereas in English and history, he can skip some short stories or a novel or check out during the Renaissance unit, and then check back in with more ease.

In short, he may not be working hard in any class or he may have gotten so far behind in geometry and chem that he can't catch up on his own. I'd bet one or the other.

 

[Ron Mehico]

Originally posted by elwood_blue:
In your opinion, can math and science aptitude be greatly increased in someone weak in those fields or is it a case of "either you got it or you don't"?

Said every lazy person on the face of this earth. Its pretty much the easiest excuse anyone can make, and I'm sure millions have made it. If your kid studies his ass off and works really hard there is no way he can't manage at least a B in High School. Sure, he may never get to the point of getting a Ph.D. in physics or anything, but he could possibly at least get to the point where a weakness becomes a strength and he enjoys and excels at it.

All in my opinion of course, based on absolutely nothing.

 

[Deeeefense]

IMO on the one hand you can improve at anything if you apply yourself and there are training techniques that can help children lean math more easily. OTOH I think we are all predisposed with certain abilities to some extend. My brother and I are a great example. He was an English major and also speaks 4 languages. He taught himself basic Spanish when he was in junior high. OTOH I have tried several times to learn Spanish and I just can't get it. OTOH I love math especially statistics, it was my favorite subject in both undergraduate and graduate level. My brother just looks at a spread sheet or a chart and turns purple.
Our brains are just wired differently.

I think most of those degrees you list aren't worth a whole lot unless you get an advanced degree preferable a PHD - that's a big investment of time and money. The bottom line is every one should follow their own interests, and a kid should not just be forced into a field that he has no interest or aptitude for, just becasue that's where it looks like the money and opportunities are. My dad was an engineer and he tried to push my brother into engineering but he hated it - it flipped him out when he majored in English but he went on to knock down some nice positions in technology transfer education, for some international companies, and wrote and published 8 books. It just depends on the person.




This post was edited on 2/15 1:12 PM by Deeeefense

 

[ymmot31]

He's not a spatial thinker. The world needs ditch diggers too.

 

[elwood_blue]

Thanks for all the replies; you all make very good points. Yes, the world does need ditch diggers ymmot31. Maybe I'll just see if he can win the caddy scholarship your honor.

 

[jamo0001]

Instead of looking at STEM as "the tough fields", look at the humanities as "the easy fields". Doing well in the latter isn't really as much of an accomplishment as you'd think.

 

[legallyblonde]

I teach high school, one of subjects your son does well in. I get some kids who do fine in my class but struggle in science. I also see the opposite with kids who ace math but struggle in mine. Ultimately, I think people have a natural aptitude for certain subjects and a natural interest level that affects performance in subjects (meaning, you're more interested so you are more likely to be engaged in class, think more critically about the content, and do all class/homework). It may even become self-fulfilling in that the student begins to believe they are bad at a class and don't feel like the effort even matters. When they remove that effort, grades drop. I think you can improve any subject you desire to improve though.

There's a lot of recent study about how praising our students can stunt or encourage learning. I try to praise the effort ("you got a B on that test! You worked so hard, I'm so proud of you") or in the case recently of a class who bombed their first exam in a college credit class, "you guys can do better than that. I can see you didn't spend the time you needed to. Let's treat it as a learning experience. Here's what I can do to help you; what do you think is important for you to do differently?"). Try encouraging the process/effort, not the outcome ("you're so smart!" Or "you're such a good writer, no wonder you got an A on that essay").

If his school offers a large number of elective classes, encourage him to take the ones that seem interesting. We have lots of electives in social studies English, and science. Encourage AP and college level classes in the subjects he enjoys - they'll teach critical thinking, problem solving, and study skills that will extend into other subjects.

And I also agree with a lot of what was said above - talk with his teachers to find out what you can be doing at home to help him. Does he need to improve certain skills? Is he not meeting certain objectives? Most schools in Kentucky offer free after-school tutoring. Or is his biggest problem missing work?

I recognize you want him to have a good job but there are good jobs out there in many fields. If he's meant to pursue a STEM career, he will. There is nothing worse than being stuck in a career you hate. I did that for a lot of years before leaving the well paid corporate job to do something I love.

 

[WayneDougan]

It could be how those subjects were taught. I had a crappy algebra teacher in 7th grade and did quite poorly. I then had a great teacher in 8th grade and made A's. Likewise, at UK my Calculus teacher just turned around and wrote equations on the board. Switched classes and found somebody who knew what they were doing. Made all the difference in the world.

 

[funKYcat75]

Wayne is right. Everyone can learn the stuff, or it wouldn't be required for graduation. Everyone cannot, however, learn it on their own. I could teach my self math without a good teacher and get by fine, but despite my aptitude for most things school-wise, I couldn't make heads nor tails of Chemistry and have forgotten most of what I was able to learn. I had a crappy HS Chem teacher and a TA at UK who was in way over his head and couldn't explain it very well. I got my B in both classes, but didn't learn anything worthwhile.

Like I tell my son, don't be afraid to ask the teacher questions. It's their (my) job to explain it in a way that a kid can understand and if they don't, then you explain other options.

 

[ram1955]

Views of a retired educator...

If he is of average intelligence, he should be able to do reasonably well in almost anything offered in high school. IMO, we are all born with talents; you see it when you see kids for whom certain subjects, skills, etc...come more easily than they do for others.

I've always encouraged parents to allow interests/talents lead their kids. For those who hold humanities professions as being less worthwhile as professions in math, science, etc.... that's a flaw in our society/culture. From a religious perspective (my second profession), our world needs writers, psychologists, historians, dancers, artists, etc...as much as engineers, business leaders, bankers, physicists, etc.... We are the ones that "decided" that those professions are less honorable or important than others.

While your kid is in high school, hold him accountable for working hard in his classes. Make sure he's taking classes he needs for college. After high school, get out of his way. His career is his call. If you get involved at all, just help him look at the facts about different careers. Remember, money isn't everything...in fact, I've learned there are a lot of contented and happy people out there in careers that don't make much money. I'd rather my kids be happy, contented and fulfilled as social workers than harried, worn, stressed in what society views as a more worthwhile job.

From a religious perspective, I believe God gave us all different talents because He knew humanity needed people with different skills and interests. We're the ones that decided that some jobs are "more important" than others.

Good luck!
ram

 

[BlueRaider22]

I don't know that his aptitude can change much. I think that's pretty much "either you got it or you don't." However, you certainly can improve knowledge and understanding of a subject.

1. Does he simply need work? Meaning if he has drive to learn but doesn't have the knowledge then a good tutor, etc, can get the job done well.
2. Does he lack drive? If he doesn't want to learn its a different problem. You have to find a way to motivate him.
3. Does he need both? By far the toughest to tackle, b/c you have to educate and motivate.

 

[UPSCat4080]

Math and Science require fundamental building blocks that are learned during early education. If a child slacks or is left behind when they are young it is very hard for them to catch up and go at a pace of others who did recieve and retain the building knowledge. Can a kid improve if they have a hard time with Math? Sure with the right assistance and extra practice, but the longer they go without intervention the harder it becomes to get them up to a proficient level.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[elwood_blue]

Originally posted by jamo0001:
Instead of looking at STEM as "the tough fields", look at the humanities as "the easy fields". Doing well in the latter isn't really as much of an accomplishment as you'd think.

It's not necessarily that I view the STEM as the tough fields, but rather the more demanded fields for the foreseeable future. His older brother is thinking seriously about Accounting (at this time), with the eventual goal of being an actuary. I have no problem with this.
I just want the money for college to be well spent and a good investment. You'd be surprised at some of the majors otherwise smart kids are taking these days (Pop Culture) and their parents don't seem to have a problem with it.

 

[elwood_blue]

Outstanding responses, thank you all very much.

 

[Willy4UK]

Gotta say. Fall in love with the process for long term comfort. If you're doing school.work just get it done, then you're only get short term comfort. Long term success depends on falling in love with the process. The daily routine to constantly hone your skill.

 

[anon_l8pbkn96tg3j6]

In math there is a chasm between understanding and memorization that grows the further you go with it. The earlier you start memorizing, the sooner the chalkboard will look like the Rosetta Stone. I'd suggest he go back and make sure he actually understand the basics . . . focus on process, not the formula.

 

[JonathanW]

You either got it or you don't.
BUT, through great effort (& good teaching) you can overcome a lack of "it" somewhat, at least enough to get solid grades in high school science/math classes.

 

[dgtatu01]

Math takes a lot of practice. There is no such thing as just getting it. In too many math classes homework is not required as part of your grade so too many people do not do it and then try to memorize formulas and take the test which is impossible. You have to know how to use the formula, manipulate the formula, and do algebra with the formula to get it. That only comes from practicing it through problems in homework. The math classes where students learn math are the ones where homework is due every single day and it is part of the grade. That is how you increase aptitude, just like every other skill I have learned in life. Memorizing a recipe will not make you a good cook, it's the same thing.

 

[dgtatu01]

Originally posted by jamo0001:
Instead of looking at STEM as "the tough fields", look at the humanities as "the easy fields". Doing well in the latter isn't really as much of an accomplishment as you'd think.

After reading the OP's post about his son this is the correct answer. You hit the nail on the head with worthless degrees, that's because anybody can do those fields with little to no effort It takes work to be good at math.

 

[dgtatu01]

Originally posted by elwood_blue:

Originally posted by jamo0001:
Instead of looking at STEM as "the tough fields", look at the humanities as "the easy fields". Doing well in the latter isn't really as much of an accomplishment as you'd think.

It's not necessarily that I view the STEM as the tough fields, but rather the more demanded fields for the foreseeable future. His older brother is thinking seriously about Accounting (at this time), with the eventual goal of being an actuary. I have no problem with this.
I just want the money for college to be well spent and a good investment. You'd be surprised at some of the majors otherwise smart kids are taking these days (Pop Culture) and their parents don't seem to have a problem with it.

Just got in the door as an actuary at Humana. It's an amazing field with a high degree of difficulty and challenging work. I love it, but I have gotten bored with every other job I have had within a year or 2. This one is going to keep me challenged for at least 10 years or so, so I am very excited, plus it pays very handsomely so I can enjoy my weekends more.

 

[UKGrad93]

dgtatu01 speaks the truth about math taking practice. Lots of practice.

There are several careers in STEM areas that don't use a lot of math beyond a little algebra.

 

[FutureCityCats]

Looks like a lot of serious replies elwood. FCC.

 

[WayneDougan]

Originally posted by UKGrad93:

dgtatu01 speaks the truth about math taking practice. Lots of practice.

Then there's my dbag brother who in 11th grade opened the AP statistics book at the start of a 12 hour road trip to visit Ivy League schools, finished it by the time he got to New Haven, and got a 5 (highest score) on the test the following Monday. Screw him.

 

[ekywildcat]

Math is a fascinating subject, some of the concepts just blow my mind. I think the great ones are born with "it" just like a great athlete or musician. However, I'm sure a smart kid like the op's can do just fine with hard work and practice

Paul Prather has an interesting column in the weekend LHL, about a guy that solved a math problem that people had worked on for years, something about "bound gaps" pretty interesting.

 

[JonathanW]

Originally posted by dgtatu01:
Math takes a lot of practice. There is no such thing as just getting it. In too many math classes homework is not required as part of your grade so too many people do not do it and then try to memorize formulas and take the test which is impossible. You have to know how to use the formula, manipulate the formula, and do algebra with the formula to get it. That only comes from practicing it through problems in homework. The math classes where students learn math are the ones where homework is due every single day and it is part of the grade. That is how you increase aptitude, just like every other skill I have learned in life. Memorizing a recipe will not make you a good cook, it's the same thing.

I must respectfully disagree.

 

[robo222]

I almost passed up this thread because you were asking for geniuses.... I don't have scientific data, but using about somenone i know closely..... I did well better in those subjects that came easy (like the ones you mentioned) and did poorly in the ones that required more work on my part... Funny how that worked out... I really don't know if I was challenged in math as much as I was too lazy too early in life to build skills. I gravitated to courses that I found "easy" and, to your point, will have an influence on his future choices in the job market.... The moral of the story is... Just because you apply yourself in acedemic areas of interest and do well, doesn't mean you will find a job of interest/liking using any of your favorite tools.....

 

[d2atTech]

Originally posted by JonathanW:

Originally posted by dgtatu01:
Math takes a lot of practice. There is no such thing as just getting it. In too many math classes homework is not required as part of your grade so too many people do not do it and then try to memorize formulas and take the test which is impossible. You have to know how to use the formula, manipulate the formula, and do algebra with the formula to get it. That only comes from practicing it through problems in homework. The math classes where students learn math are the ones where homework is due every single day and it is part of the grade. That is how you increase aptitude, just like every other skill I have learned in life. Memorizing a recipe will not make you a good cook, it's the same thing.

I must respectfully disagree.

i 100% agree with dgtatu01. having spent a lot of time in school and a lot of time (guest) teaching science and math in los angeles public schools, i think success in STEM, specifically, comes down to two things: effort and environment. having access to the right resources, both personnel and texts, is critical. you don't need expensive math textbooks or fancy tools like graphing calculators--pick up a black and white text from the sixties, math hasn't changed all that much. op, if you want, i'd be happy to email you or give you the resources i have both math and sciences. parental encouragement for studying and progress is also critical.

the most important ingredient for success is effort--and that can only come from the student himself. i am of average intelligence (though dennis reynolds may disagree, based soley on many blunders with the female species) was a "c" student in math in high school. i grew up in a middle class family with educated parents, and i had access to many math and science resources. i didn't find the motivation to work until my dad got laid-off from work. suddenly the world got scary and i got hungry. i worked my ass off (literally required about 5x times the effort as my classmates to make up for lost ground) for my last two years in high school to become solid at math.

since then, i have continued to be of average intelligence and i have continued to take a significant number of advanced math classes. with the exception of a few subject areas (topology and abstract algebra), effort significantly outpaces intuition for succeeding at math.

tldr; ignore allen iverson: when it comes to math, practice makes perfect.

 

[MrHotDice]

In Taiwan, the emphasis is on math and science and competition. Kids here go to school all day and then another 3 hours of after school programs. Their is no organized sports till high school and the parents expect much more from their kids than in the us. Also the best high schools get the best kids through competition testing. They don't send kids weak in math and science to high schools set up for these students.

Their is also no teaching unions and politically correct bull sh$t based on who you are that interfers with the process. These kids rank very high in the world rankings in math and science so for them it works. Tainan's system would never work in USA because here the teachers are very respected and a note sent home from the teacher actually means something.

 

[dgtatu01]

Hang a white board on your wall at home and let your kid explain it to you while they write it out. Trying to explain math concepts to someone sinks it in even more and brings you to another level of understanding. Trust me there was nothing intuitive or that I was born with that helped me the first time I saw the Black-Scholes framework for pricing financial instruments like stocks, bonds, and options. It is a solution to a partial differential equation based on the lognormal distribution. It is also a stochastic process. Yep those terms made my head spin when I heard them too. I have a bachelors degree in Math and Economics for background and I have been studying the material for 6 months and I have worked over 350 problems with the material and I basically have 80% of it down for an actuarial exam I take on March 19th. Trust me math takes a lot of work, I sit on a floor in the PNC Tower in Louisville with 90 actuaries and we all struggle with the tests and the material on them and we are in the top 1% in the country as far as math knowledge and aptitude.

 

[ram1955]

dgtatu

It's obvious your aptitude in math exceeds that of most other people. Trying to explain aptitude as anything as God-given is impossible for me. Yet, with the given aptitude, you still had to work to develop your skills. There are lots of us that are decent at math, but only a few of us are good enough to be among the top 1%. We could work as hard as you; study as hard; do twice the homework, etc...but 99% of us would likely never be among the top %. It's akin to telling someone they can work on ball handling, shooting, jumping...and if they do enough of it, they can be like Michael Jordan.

As a former educator and a math teacher, I believe most if not all can do math at the upper arithemetic/mid-Algebra level if we work. I used to get so frustrated when I'd hear kids and parents say crap like "Well my mom/dad was not good at math so I won't be either".... With good teaching and daily opportunities to apply the concepts to real life situations, kids can learn math and be good at it. Where most of us/ educators fail is our failure to find relevant applications. When we don't, the concepts remain nothing but a formula on a board.

IMO, the reason American kids struggle at even high level arithemetic is because we have moved away from a society that requires kids to solve problems....Back in the day we had chores that required measurement, we learned to cook which required measurements, use or ratios,etc....They learned concepts at school and applied them at home or in life. There are few opportunities to apply math when you are sitting on your obese little arse playing video games.

 

[d2atTech]

i strongly disagree with the bolded parts. if you put in effort (perhaps one might require more effort than dgtatu, due to aptitute) you can most certainly be good at math. math is like cooking--it's a recipe. applied math (most of the math that we all use--algebra, calculus, various differential equations) can be solved using very specific methods (e.g. find the root, find the convolving green's function, etc.) the part of math that requires intuition (abstract algebra and parts of graduate-level geometry) are likely not what most people think about when referring to math. practice makes perfect. like dgtatu suggests, solving problems is the best way to get good at math. i say this because i do a lot math (information theory, combinatorics, various applications of complex analysis) and i have no aptitude for it. i can still stay on top of things by putting in the effort. i might be using myself an an anecdotal example, but dgtatu seems to share my opinion as well...

i think you intuit the same sentiment on effort in your last line.

Originally posted by ram1955:
dgtatu

It's obvious your aptitude in math exceeds that of most other people. Trying to explain aptitude as anything as God-given is impossible for me. Yet, with the given aptitude, you still had to work to develop your skills. There are lots of us that are decent at math, but only a few of us are good enough to be among the top 1%. We could work as hard as you; study as hard; do twice the homework, etc...but 99% of us would likely never be among the top %. It's akin to telling someone they can work on ball handling, shooting, jumping...and if they do enough of it, they can be like Michael Jordan.

As a former educator and a math teacher, I believe most if not all can do math at the upper arithemetic/mid-Algebra level if we work. I used to get so frustrated when I'd hear kids and parents say crap like "Well my mom/dad was not good at math so I won't be either".... With good teaching and daily opportunities to apply the concepts to real life situations, kids can learn math and be good at it. Where most of us/ educators fail is our failure to find relevant applications. When we don't, the concepts remain nothing but a formula on a board.

IMO, the reason American kids struggle at even high level arithemetic is because we have moved away from a society that requires kids to solve problems....Back in the day we had chores that required measurement, we learned to cook which required measurements, use or ratios,etc....They learned concepts at school and applied them at home or in life. There are few opportunities to apply math when you are sitting on your obese little arse playing video games.

 

[JonathanW]

Originally posted by d2atTech:
i strongly disagree with the bolded parts. if you put in effort (perhaps one might require more effort than dgtatu, due to aptitute) you can most certainly be good at math. math is like cooking--it's a recipe. applied math (most of the math that we all use--algebra, calculus, various differential equations) can be solved using very specific methods (e.g. find the root, find the convolving green's function, etc.) the part of math that requires intuition (abstract algebra and parts of graduate-level geometry) are likely not what most people think about when referring to math. practice makes perfect. like dgtatu suggests, solving problems is the best way to get good at math. i say this because i do a lot math (information theory, combinatorics, various applications of complex analysis) and i have no aptitude for it. i can still stay on top of things by putting in the effort. i might be using myself an an anecdotal example, but dgtatu seems to share my opinion as well...

i think you intuit the same sentiment on effort in your last line.

Originally posted by ram1955:
dgtatu

It's obvious your aptitude in math exceeds that of most other people. Trying to explain aptitude as anything as God-given is impossible for me. Yet, with the given aptitude, you still had to work to develop your skills. There are lots of us that are decent at math, but only a few of us are good enough to be among the top 1%. We could work as hard as you; study as hard; do twice the homework, etc...but 99% of us would likely never be among the top %. It's akin to telling someone they can work on ball handling, shooting, jumping...and if they do enough of it, they can be like Michael Jordan.

As a former educator and a math teacher, I believe most if not all can do math at the upper arithemetic/mid-Algebra level if we work. I used to get so frustrated when I'd hear kids and parents say crap like "Well my mom/dad was not good at math so I won't be either".... With good teaching and daily opportunities to apply the concepts to real life situations, kids can learn math and be good at it. Where most of us/ educators fail is our failure to find relevant applications. When we don't, the concepts remain nothing but a formula on a board.

IMO, the reason American kids struggle at even high level arithemetic is because we have moved away from a society that requires kids to solve problems....Back in the day we had chores that required measurement, we learned to cook which required measurements, use or ratios,etc....They learned concepts at school and applied them at home or in life. There are few opportunities to apply math when you are sitting on your obese little arse playing video games.

And I strongly disagree with you. As someone who has always been in the top 1% when it comes to math. Just like almost anything else, having that God-given ability or talent is difficult to replace. I think it is especially true in math, where spatial and logical thinking are so critical, and difficult for many to understand. Now practice and good teaching can certainly help (turn the poor/mediocre into good, and the good into very good, and the very good into great). But I think there are limitations to how much improvement can be seen. Just like no matter how much training & coaching I get you aren't going to turn me into an NBA/MLB/NFL all-star, nor a famous author.
Back to the OP's original question, his child can get to the point of making A's & B's in math, but don't expect the kid to become a math guru.

 

[d2atTech]

Originally posted by JonathanW:

Originally posted by d2atTech:
i strongly disagree with the bolded parts. if you put in effort (perhaps one might require more effort than dgtatu, due to aptitute) you can most certainly be good at math. math is like cooking--it's a recipe. applied math (most of the math that we all use--algebra, calculus, various differential equations) can be solved using very specific methods (e.g. find the root, find the convolving green's function, etc.) the part of math that requires intuition (abstract algebra and parts of graduate-level geometry) are likely not what most people think about when referring to math. practice makes perfect. like dgtatu suggests, solving problems is the best way to get good at math. i say this because i do a lot math (information theory, combinatorics, various applications of complex analysis) and i have no aptitude for it. i can still stay on top of things by putting in the effort. i might be using myself an an anecdotal example, but dgtatu seems to share my opinion as well...

i think you intuit the same sentiment on effort in your last line.

Originally posted by ram1955:
dgtatu

It's obvious your aptitude in math exceeds that of most other people. Trying to explain aptitude as anything as God-given is impossible for me. Yet, with the given aptitude, you still had to work to develop your skills. There are lots of us that are decent at math, but only a few of us are good enough to be among the top 1%. We could work as hard as you; study as hard; do twice the homework, etc...but 99% of us would likely never be among the top %. It's akin to telling someone they can work on ball handling, shooting, jumping...and if they do enough of it, they can be like Michael Jordan.

As a former educator and a math teacher, I believe most if not all can do math at the upper arithemetic/mid-Algebra level if we work. I used to get so frustrated when I'd hear kids and parents say crap like "Well my mom/dad was not good at math so I won't be either".... With good teaching and daily opportunities to apply the concepts to real life situations, kids can learn math and be good at it. Where most of us/ educators fail is our failure to find relevant applications. When we don't, the concepts remain nothing but a formula on a board.

IMO, the reason American kids struggle at even high level arithemetic is because we have moved away from a society that requires kids to solve problems....Back in the day we had chores that required measurement, we learned to cook which required measurements, use or ratios,etc....They learned concepts at school and applied them at home or in life. There are few opportunities to apply math when you are sitting on your obese little arse playing video games.

And I strongly disagree with you. As someone who has always been in the top 1% when it comes to math. Just like almost anything else, having that God-given ability or talent is difficult to replace. I think it is especially true in math, where spatial and logical thinking are so critical, and difficult for many to understand. Now practice and good teaching can certainly help (turn the poor/mediocre into good, and the good into very good, and the very good into great). But I think there are limitations to how much improvement can be seen. Just like no matter how much training & coaching I get you aren't going to turn me into an NBA/MLB/NFL all-star, nor a famous author.
Back to the OP's original question, his child can get to the point of making A's & B's in math, but don't expect the kid to become a math guru.

yes, the take home is message is that the OP's son can indeed make A's with effort. And you certainly can become a math guru with just effort. I work with many mathematicians how have gotten there with lots and lots of practice. People who claim to be talented at math without trying are just lying. In terms of innate ability, the playing field is far as the eye can see. Opportunity and exposure might make that look different. You get better at recognizing patterns with more exposure and more practice.

 

[elwood_blue]

Originally posted by ram1955:
dgtatu

It's obvious your aptitude in math exceeds that of most other people. Trying to explain aptitude as anything as God-given is impossible for me. Yet, with the given aptitude, you still had to work to develop your skills. There are lots of us that are decent at math, but only a few of us are good enough to be among the top 1%. We could work as hard as you; study as hard; do twice the homework, etc...but 99% of us would likely never be among the top %. It's akin to telling someone they can work on ball handling, shooting, jumping...and if they do enough of it, they can be like Michael Jordan.

As a former educator and a math teacher, I believe most if not all can do math at the upper arithemetic/mid-Algebra level if we work. I used to get so frustrated when I'd hear kids and parents say crap like "Well my mom/dad was not good at math so I won't be either".... With good teaching and daily opportunities to apply the concepts to real life situations, kids can learn math and be good at it. Where most of us/ educators fail is our failure to find relevant applications. When we don't, the concepts remain nothing but a formula on a board.

IMO, the reason American kids struggle at even high level arithemetic is because we have moved away from a society that requires kids to solve problems....Back in the day we had chores that required measurement, we learned to cook which required measurements, use or ratios,etc....They learned concepts at school and applied them at home or in life. There are few opportunities to apply math when you are sitting on your obese little arse playing video games.

That's a great point. For me, advanced math was nothing more than abstract formulas on a blackboard meant to be learned for a test but not relevant otherwise. If teachers were able to help American kids apply this stuff we probably wouldn't need to recruit so many foreigners to do it for us.

 

[elwood_blue]

Originally posted by d2atTech:
yes, the take home is message is that the OP's son can indeed make A's with effort. And you certainly can become a math guru with just effort. I work with many mathematicians how have gotten there with lots and lots of practice. People who claim to be talented at math without trying are just lying. In terms of innate ability, the playing field is far as the eye can see. Opportunity and exposure might make that look different. You get better at recognizing patterns with more exposure and more practice.

So basically Good Will Hunting was a farce?

 

[anon_l8pbkn96tg3j6]

I think most of the issue lies with the student like I said before. You need to understand the concepts and practice applying them in different places. If you don't put in the work you aren't going to get it (unless your last name is Gauss).

A big part of the problem is also with the teaching. When I was a math undergrad there were a couple of "easy math electives" (number theory, history of math, etc). You sign up for the class because the teacher is awesome . . . but you show up on the first day, don't recognize anyone from the normal math crowd, there are a lot more females, and the females are objectively more attractive. Who are these people? Elementary education majors. People who want to be teachers are required to take math classes, and found the easiest classes that fill the requirement. These are the people who teach our kids how to do math . . . it's one of the many things about education that infuriate me.

 

[d2atTech]

Originally posted by ckwils2:
I think most of the issue lies with the student like I said before. You need to understand the concepts and practice applying them in different places. If you don't put in the work you aren't going to get it (unless your last name is Gauss).

A big part of the problem is also with the teaching. When I was a math undergrad there were a couple of "easy math electives" (number theory, history of math, etc). You sign up for the class because the teacher is awesome . . . but you show up on the first day, don't recognize anyone from the normal math crowd, there are a lot more females, and the females are objectively more attractive. Who are these people? Elementary education majors. People who want to be teachers are required to take math classes, and found the easiest classes that fill the requirement. These are the people who teach our kids how to do math . . . it's one of the many things about education that infuriate me.

this is a systemic failure with education in this country. i absolutely agree with you that the most competent practitioners are the ones who should become teachers. just like the most competent soldiers become drill sergeants. alas, the system is not financially incentivized this way. not sure i have any idea how that can be fixed though...

 

[d2atTech]

op, thoughtthis is written as an undergraduate-level math text, this is the best free mathematics textbook that i have found: http://www.matematica.net/portal/e-books/Sean%20Mauch%20-%20Introduction%20to%20Methods%20of%20Applied%20Mathematics.pdf

It may not help your son at this point in his education, but it's a good resource to download (legally) for later. i'd be happy to email you any other resources i have if you so desire. dr. mauch (who wrote this book as an undergraduate) recounts humorous epiphanies. I have copied an excerpt on economics for your reading pleasure:

"There are two important concepts in economics. The first is "Buy low, sell high", which is self-explanitory. The
second is opportunity cost, the highest valued alternative that must be sacrificed to attain something or otherwise
satisfy a want. I discovered this concept as an undergraduate at Caltech. I was never very in to computer games, but I
found myself randomly playing tetris. Out of the blue I was struck by a revelation: "I could be having sex right now."
I haven't played a computer game since."

 

[TT Cat]

Try using Khan Academy. They have thousands of short math videos from very basic math to advanced college math.