I'm sorry but that analogy is off base. I think you said earlier that you had 4 superstars. You actually have 1 superstar and 2 elites and 1 former elite who has already started his age related decline.
Vote for the NBA GM Final Poll- JBHolmesfan vs. Aike
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Ok, if we're using that logic (which I disagree with btw) it's still a higher quantity than any other team in this contest nonetheless. On that logic we can't say that MKG is an MVP candidate down the line. Doesn't work that way.
And that analogy is a very good example of this situation. Which in that case would you rather be a fan of? The team that can win now and for the next 5 years or the team that can win for the next 3-7?
I still can't make that jump to your team almost automatically winning. Your bench, imo, is one of the weakest of the 9. You really only have 1 backup and that is Crowder. He's a solid player, but nothing special. Hield may be great, but we don't know yet and SG would be a very serious concern for you if not for the fact that you're a Celtics fan and over value Bradley. Jrue is constantly injured and barely plays. We already discussed Al. He's done already, which you basically agreed with, so again, you have no backup. Tyreke and Justice, I'm not too impressed with either of them. AD is a true superstar but you know his weakness. There is no denying it. Overall your team shoots poorly from 3. You depend almost totally on your big 4, ne of whom is past his prime already. If we turn this into a situation where your big 4 are always on the floor and playing at their peak level, you win. But this game shouldn't work that way. Real life exists. These guys miss games, have to sub out, get old and so on. That is your Achilles Heel and I have trouble getting past it.
Have never posted here before, but this thread and the whole idea of a GM Draft is a lot of fun. Man - this is a close call.
JB Holmes has an edge in coaching and in star power, but Aike's squad i think has an edge in depth, versatility, potential over 5 years, and defense.
If you break it down by starter's by position I see it like this:
PG: Wall vs Lillard - Lillard has a slight edge offensively, especially running the pick & roll with AD/Griffin. However, Wall fits his team equally well, getting out in transition, finding shooters, and being far superior defensively to Lillard. Slight Advantage: Wall & Aike
SG/SF: Klay & MKG vs Bradley & Melo - Not sure if MKG actually starts in this position, Booker could be an alternative as a shooter, as the rest of the team plays excellent defense and he'd only be guarding Avery Bradley, who would be the 5th offensive option on this team. Klay is an above average defender and is probably the second best shooter in the league. MKG is probably the best wing defender in the league when healthy but is more of a slasher right now in his career. However, MKG & Thompson can probably switch and guard multiple positions on the perimeter. Bradley is a great defender, but he has to be to make up for Lillard & Melo, who is just horrid defensively. Melo is a great scorer, but he needs the ball in his hands in order to be so, which runs counter to having Lillard running the point. Additionally, Melo is already on the decline at 32. You may get two or three more good years from him, but you won't get 5. Advantage: Aike
Bigs: Greek Freak & Gobert vs Griffin & AD - For Starters, Griffin & AD obviously win this match up. I think they can play together well, as they both can hit 15-18 footers, with AD able to hit out to the 3 point line. They'd also be deadly in the pick and roll or pop with Lillard. AD has the most upside of anyone in the league at this point IMO, making him a great candidate to carry this team for 5 years. The only issue I take with this pair is the injury history, as both have been susceptible, and you can probably count on losing both of them for an extended period of time at some point. I do think the Freak & Gobert have a slight edge defensively, as Griffin is a disinterested defender and AD & Gobert match up pretty well on that end. The difference is that Gobert is a huge offensive liability, but he is an excellent rebounder. The Freak could be a huge game changer for the team with his length and unique skillsekt but still is somewhat raw and developing. Big Advantage: JB
Coaching: Stevens vs. Walton Let's see what Walton can do, but for now, Stevens is the best coach in the league outside of Popp. Advantage: JB
Bench: I'm going to agree with some of what Aike has said. I don't really see how JBs bench fits as well. Tyreke scores on inefficient volume, Jefferson does what he does (scores on the left block) and not much else. Plus he's aging as well, although older posts can hold up. I like Crowder and Winslow a lot, but they play the same position, you probably have to trade one of them unless Winslow can develop a shot. There is a lot more upside for development over the next 5 years for Aike. Ulis will be a solid off the bench point, and Lavine, Booker, Johnson, and Bender could all be future All-Stars. Thompson & Adams are above average NBA bigs that can come and give quality minutes too. Advantage: Aike
Summary: Based on star power alone, JB is gonna win a few, but I think over the long haul if players develop/fall off as anticipated, Aike has a slight edge.
JB Holmes has an edge in coaching and in star power, but Aike's squad i think has an edge in depth, versatility, potential over 5 years, and defense.
If you break it down by starter's by position I see it like this:
PG: Wall vs Lillard - Lillard has a slight edge offensively, especially running the pick & roll with AD/Griffin. However, Wall fits his team equally well, getting out in transition, finding shooters, and being far superior defensively to Lillard. Slight Advantage: Wall & Aike
SG/SF: Klay & MKG vs Bradley & Melo - Not sure if MKG actually starts in this position, Booker could be an alternative as a shooter, as the rest of the team plays excellent defense and he'd only be guarding Avery Bradley, who would be the 5th offensive option on this team. Klay is an above average defender and is probably the second best shooter in the league. MKG is probably the best wing defender in the league when healthy but is more of a slasher right now in his career. However, MKG & Thompson can probably switch and guard multiple positions on the perimeter. Bradley is a great defender, but he has to be to make up for Lillard & Melo, who is just horrid defensively. Melo is a great scorer, but he needs the ball in his hands in order to be so, which runs counter to having Lillard running the point. Additionally, Melo is already on the decline at 32. You may get two or three more good years from him, but you won't get 5. Advantage: Aike
Bigs: Greek Freak & Gobert vs Griffin & AD - For Starters, Griffin & AD obviously win this match up. I think they can play together well, as they both can hit 15-18 footers, with AD able to hit out to the 3 point line. They'd also be deadly in the pick and roll or pop with Lillard. AD has the most upside of anyone in the league at this point IMO, making him a great candidate to carry this team for 5 years. The only issue I take with this pair is the injury history, as both have been susceptible, and you can probably count on losing both of them for an extended period of time at some point. I do think the Freak & Gobert have a slight edge defensively, as Griffin is a disinterested defender and AD & Gobert match up pretty well on that end. The difference is that Gobert is a huge offensive liability, but he is an excellent rebounder. The Freak could be a huge game changer for the team with his length and unique skillsekt but still is somewhat raw and developing. Big Advantage: JB
Coaching: Stevens vs. Walton Let's see what Walton can do, but for now, Stevens is the best coach in the league outside of Popp. Advantage: JB
Bench: I'm going to agree with some of what Aike has said. I don't really see how JBs bench fits as well. Tyreke scores on inefficient volume, Jefferson does what he does (scores on the left block) and not much else. Plus he's aging as well, although older posts can hold up. I like Crowder and Winslow a lot, but they play the same position, you probably have to trade one of them unless Winslow can develop a shot. There is a lot more upside for development over the next 5 years for Aike. Ulis will be a solid off the bench point, and Lavine, Booker, Johnson, and Bender could all be future All-Stars. Thompson & Adams are above average NBA bigs that can come and give quality minutes too. Advantage: Aike
Summary: Based on star power alone, JB is gonna win a few, but I think over the long haul if players develop/fall off as anticipated, Aike has a slight edge.
You're right real like exists, which is why MKG as an MVP candidate and Tyler Ulis a viable option as a backup in this format is asinine. I can't possibly disagree with about Avery Bradley. You said in our contest you don't follow the NBA very much, so it makes sense you don't see his value. He's an elite perimeter defender as evidenced by his First Team All Defense selection and 6th in Defensive Player of the Year voting. That can't be overlooked in real life. He's also developed into a very serviceable option on the offensive end. He was a key part of Boston's offense throughout the season. They had the 3rd best record. So, you can win with Avery Bradley as your starting SG. He's not an elite offensive scorer and I'm not going to make the claim that he will ever average 25 a game. He's a very solid player in the NBA and his value is incredibly underrated by you.
My bench is fine. The problem is I don't have the youth like Aike so I can't predict Hall of Fame careers for my unproven guys and it be considered a reasonable development. What I do have is proven guys in the NBA that have had success. That's incredibly important for teams that are competing to win titles. How many young guys did the Cavs have coming off their bench? Golden State? Most guys were proven NBA players i.e Iggy, Livingston, Barbosa, Shumpert, Speights, Jefferson, Frye. They've been in the NBA Finals 2 straight years without a young bench. Remarkable. Why? Because their starting 5's are elite, much like my starting 5 is elite.
Over the course of the next 5 years, which is what this contest is, not anything further my team has a better chance to win titles than Aike's. In 6 years Aike has the better shot, but that's not part of the contest.
My bench is fine. The problem is I don't have the youth like Aike so I can't predict Hall of Fame careers for my unproven guys and it be considered a reasonable development. What I do have is proven guys in the NBA that have had success. That's incredibly important for teams that are competing to win titles. How many young guys did the Cavs have coming off their bench? Golden State? Most guys were proven NBA players i.e Iggy, Livingston, Barbosa, Shumpert, Speights, Jefferson, Frye. They've been in the NBA Finals 2 straight years without a young bench. Remarkable. Why? Because their starting 5's are elite, much like my starting 5 is elite.
Over the course of the next 5 years, which is what this contest is, not anything further my team has a better chance to win titles than Aike's. In 6 years Aike has the better shot, but that's not part of the contest.
Coaching edge- Holmes
Backcourt-Aike
Frontcourt- Holmes
I thought from the start both these teams were top 4 teams in this thing. But we have to nitpick in this so..
I don't see a problem with Blake/AD playing together. Blake plays with DAJ who has a range of 3-5 feet.
Don't like Jefferson or Tyreke at all, could have gotten better, younger players in this. On that note I don't think Ulis should have been drafted.
Crowder seems to be very underrated. He's a really good player. He's just as good as MKG or better.
Don't see Aike having a problem with shooting if Walton uses his lineups correctly.
Backcourt-Aike
Frontcourt- Holmes
I thought from the start both these teams were top 4 teams in this thing. But we have to nitpick in this so..
I don't see a problem with Blake/AD playing together. Blake plays with DAJ who has a range of 3-5 feet.
Don't like Jefferson or Tyreke at all, could have gotten better, younger players in this. On that note I don't think Ulis should have been drafted.
Crowder seems to be very underrated. He's a really good player. He's just as good as MKG or better.
Don't see Aike having a problem with shooting if Walton uses his lineups correctly.
I wrote in myself. I'm gonna run to the ring for my title shot after the winner is exhausted.
I think JB has the better names, think Aike's team is a better fit.
JB would be more "fun" to cheer for, except most of the guys who give him that honor are injury prone and that's incredibly frustrating.
I love Ulis, but he shouldn't have been drafted in this format.
Who does JB have that's won anything? Lillard? Davis? Griffin? Melo? Nope.
I think JB has the better names, think Aike's team is a better fit.
JB would be more "fun" to cheer for, except most of the guys who give him that honor are injury prone and that's incredibly frustrating.
I love Ulis, but he shouldn't have been drafted in this format.
Who does JB have that's won anything? Lillard? Davis? Griffin? Melo? Nope.
Oh, and I have to add: this debate is worthy of the finals. The rosters may not be, but you guys are selling the hell out of it, and that's the fun of this thing.
Congratulations to whoever takes the imaginary crown.
Congratulations to whoever takes the imaginary crown.
That is an argument that makes absolutely no sense to me in regards to team sports. I see it all the time. Player X has never won a title so he must not be good or his teams can never win. When have those players ever been on a team that had players around them that makes them serious contenders? They haven't unless you want to count college. If Klay Thompson played for the Grizzlies would be any less of a great player? No. The knock on LeBron was he couldn't win until, guess what, they got players around him that were capable of creating a winning team. The Warriors had never won a title until year before last. Then this year with a title under their belt they blew a 3-1 series lead with 2 games at home. Their championship experience didn't appear to help them.
Melo rejoining New York is questionable considering they are a dumpster fire that's not capable of making any good deals. Look at the Noah contract for example.
The idea that somehow my team can't win now is asinine.
I have an elite backcourt, including World Champion Klay Thompson.
Even my pivotal defensive role players like Tristan and Adams have competed and won at the highest level.
My team is built to contend for a title today, and continue to get better for 5 years.
JB has admitted that his team will decline. He's hoping they win enough early that the memories will be sufficient for his fans.
I have an elite backcourt, including World Champion Klay Thompson.
Even my pivotal defensive role players like Tristan and Adams have competed and won at the highest level.
My team is built to contend for a title today, and continue to get better for 5 years.
JB has admitted that his team will decline. He's hoping they win enough early that the memories will be sufficient for his fans.
I don't think your roster is as ready to compete to win a title right now as you think. It's going to take time. In 4 years your team will certainly be contenders, but will fans want to root for that over my team that would be strong contenders the next 5 seasons?
I'm willing to admit my team in 5 years won't be as good as it is now, although still a very good team. You should be willing to admit that your team isn't going to be seriously strong contenders to win right now.
I'm willing to admit my team in 5 years won't be as good as it is now, although still a very good team. You should be willing to admit that your team isn't going to be seriously strong contenders to win right now.
Tristan Thompson had games in the Finals where he got more minutes than Lebron James. Is Tristan ready to compete now? By the way, he's my 8th best player.
Did you see Steven Adams go toe to toe with the Warriors for 7 games in June?
Have you watched Klay Thompson any at all the past 2 years? Is he ready to compete? Whatcha think?
How about John Wall who's made 3 straight All Star teams? Competitive guy?
I guess my weak links are a 22 year old MKG, who is the best talent on the Charlotte roster.
Or 21 year old Giannis, who is the most talented Buck.
Or Rudy Gobert, the best rim protector in the league.
So what do I need to compete?
Did you see Steven Adams go toe to toe with the Warriors for 7 games in June?
Have you watched Klay Thompson any at all the past 2 years? Is he ready to compete? Whatcha think?
How about John Wall who's made 3 straight All Star teams? Competitive guy?
I guess my weak links are a 22 year old MKG, who is the best talent on the Charlotte roster.
Or 21 year old Giannis, who is the most talented Buck.
Or Rudy Gobert, the best rim protector in the league.
So what do I need to compete?
Your roster is not going to contend for titles more seriously than mine for at least 3 seasons. It's nothing wrong to say you built your team for the future. It shouldn't be an argument a roster of Lillard, AD, Melo, Griffin, Bradley, Noel and Crowder is more ready and capable of winning for the next 3 seasons than your team.
Your weak link is that when you put them together it's not as unbelievably loaded as you think. We've talked about how playing Thompson and Gobert together is going to clog up the lane and that Griffin and AD in the high low game is absolutely a mismatch for your defense. We went over that. The offensive firepower is far too much to overcome. And I also have defensive options off the bench with Noel and Crowder. If Noel develops into an elite low post scorer he'll be league MVP.
Your weak link is that when you put them together it's not as unbelievably loaded as you think. We've talked about how playing Thompson and Gobert together is going to clog up the lane and that Griffin and AD in the high low game is absolutely a mismatch for your defense. We went over that. The offensive firepower is far too much to overcome. And I also have defensive options off the bench with Noel and Crowder. If Noel develops into an elite low post scorer he'll be league MVP.
I'll settle for my team being just as competitive as yours for the next 2-3 years and then better than yours the last couple.
That's more fun to watch.
Having a highly competitive team with a shot at the Title that develops into the favorite is much more fun than having a favorite who declines.
1989-1993, would you have rather been a Pistons fan or a Bulls fan?
That's more fun to watch.
Having a highly competitive team with a shot at the Title that develops into the favorite is much more fun than having a favorite who declines.
1989-1993, would you have rather been a Pistons fan or a Bulls fan?
I know it's hard to judge and perceive ourselves, but your team is not going to develop into the Chicago Bulls. But anyways I'll play that game. I doubt you'll find many Celtics fans that were upset with their choice in fandom in 1970.
Yeah, if there's anything that screams 1960s Celtics it's Carmelo, Tyreke, and Al Jefferson.
All kidding aside, I've had fun debating with you.
I like your team for the most part, but I'm being sincere in that I would enjoy being a fan of mine more.
I think you underestimate my squad, but that's understandable. I'm a bit of a basketball prophet.
All kidding aside, I've had fun debating with you.
I like your team for the most part, but I'm being sincere in that I would enjoy being a fan of mine more.
I think you underestimate my squad, but that's understandable. I'm a bit of a basketball prophet.
Yeah, if there's anything that screams 1960s Celtics it's Carmelo, Tyreke, and Al Jefferson.
All kidding aside, I've had fun debating with you.
I like your team for the most part, but I'm being sincere in that I would enjoy being a fan of mine more.
I think you underestimate my squad, but that's understandable. I'm a bit of a basketball prophet.
Aike,
you need more friends. Or children. Or grand-children.
If I could have kept you defending Tyreke and criticizing Ulis, I might have pulled it off.
I still stand by the assertion that Ulis had no business being drafted in this format. That being said I hope he out performs expectations and really succeeds. That way you can draft him even earlier next year!If I could have kept you defending Tyreke and criticizing Ulis, I might have pulled it off.
Fun game everyone. Now, lets do one with a salary cap based on last years salaries. Just a simple cap, no exceeding it and luxury taxes and all that. I'm pretty sure we won't see AD, Griffin, Lillard and Melo on the same squad. That should shake it up a bit.
I'm all for that. Would even be for one with former UK players being unavailable to mix it up.
I advocated for that at the beginning if there's a way to do it. It'd be interesting to do. However, my starting 5 would be $3 million under the cap for next season. I wouldn't be able to draft Crowder, Noel or those folks. Would have had to draft rookies or veterans but it's possible to have that starting 5. Then you have to look at future contracts as well. For example Aike's young bench may be hard to keep long term. Once those rookie deals are up those guys are going to get paid. Realistically speaking it'd be hard for a team to keep that roster. It's going to be hard to factor that in. I only used Aike's because his was the one handy. I'm sure almost every roster had some financial implausibilities. If it can be done, I'm all for it.
I think the salary cap would be fun, but I don't want to be in charge of it, and I'm honestly not sure the voters would be interested in the nuance of it.
We saw how votes were skewed this time, and I know how the free agency discussion went on this board, so I'm not sure a thoughtful GM could even effectively make his case to the average voter.
We saw how votes were skewed this time, and I know how the free agency discussion went on this board, so I'm not sure a thoughtful GM could even effectively make his case to the average voter.
You and I both. Need fall to get here then I'll have more responsibilities work wise and then more sports to keep me entertained. In the meantime I think I've posted on this site more times this summer than I had the previous 3 years combined.
I wouldn't complicate it any further than a simple base salary. If we did, it would be a mess. This would be a one year "season", so no need to worry about future contracts, etc.
Once we pick teams, wouldn't it just be which team will win? The cap wouldn't have any bearing on the voters.
Oh so you guys are thinking a one season deal? That would be a lot easier, but I think you might see it skew really heavily towards those who pick early.
Yep, I thought of that as well. Maybe Lebron, Steph and AD are excluded. There isn't that much separation after those 3.
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