Cal with athletes first, basketball skills secondary and Pope with actual basketball skills first, shooting etc.
Will be interesting to see how it plays out
Will be interesting to see how it plays out
The difference in recruiting philosophies is drastic...
- Thread starter Blueathletics
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As I look at our roster thus far. We are 10 deep right now and although there are unknowns with all freshmen I don’t see any weak links. That is a lot different than years past. Everyone on this team could be a contributor at some point throughout the season.
We've got a team full of the kinds of dudes that are Cal's kryptonite. Agreed, can't wait to see how the season plays out.
The truth is, the best possible roster is probably somewhere in the middle. Pope couldn't be expected to land NBA first round talent for next year, but I assume he'll parlay Kentucky's brand and cachet, NIL money, etc., into the kinds of talent that can put a team of sound basketball players over the top.
One thing for certain, we won’t get bullied from now on! Everything about this team screams grit and toughness.
I posted the following in Feb 2023
Believe Coach Pope answers the last sentence.
I have read too many posts on this forum that essentially state - We have the #1 recruiting class coming in next year as if that guarantees a championship team. This is not anything new since COW has been at UK. He has always had Top 5 classes and has garnered the #1 recruiting classes 6 times in his tenure. Next year’s class will be #7. Is the #1 class superior to the #10 class? To the 20th rated class? AD was an anomaly, an exception, and not the standard by which we should judge most freshmen.
What has COW done with these superior classes in his 13+ years - - 1 NCAA title and 1 NCAA runner up.
Is the goal at UK to win recruiting classes or win games? Compete for SEC and NCAA championships or win recruiting classes?
Would anyone on this forum at the start of the season traded our roster for Purdue's roster? How many 5 stars do they have? Do they have any 4 stars? Their best player is just coming into his own as a Junior. They may not win the NCAA tournament but they are a TEAM, that is better than their collective star ratings.
I don't expect us to win the SEC or NCAA tournaments every year. That is unrealistic. But it is also unrealistic to think that a bunch of freshmen will lead UK to the promised land. Until we get a coach that believes in a balanced roster, recruits to build a team of complimentary players, and has a goal of putting the best team on the floor that can compete for championships, we will have seasons like the past 3, up and down.
Believe Coach Pope answers the last sentence.
I have read too many posts on this forum that essentially state - We have the #1 recruiting class coming in next year as if that guarantees a championship team. This is not anything new since COW has been at UK. He has always had Top 5 classes and has garnered the #1 recruiting classes 6 times in his tenure. Next year’s class will be #7. Is the #1 class superior to the #10 class? To the 20th rated class? AD was an anomaly, an exception, and not the standard by which we should judge most freshmen.
What has COW done with these superior classes in his 13+ years - - 1 NCAA title and 1 NCAA runner up.
Is the goal at UK to win recruiting classes or win games? Compete for SEC and NCAA championships or win recruiting classes?
Would anyone on this forum at the start of the season traded our roster for Purdue's roster? How many 5 stars do they have? Do they have any 4 stars? Their best player is just coming into his own as a Junior. They may not win the NCAA tournament but they are a TEAM, that is better than their collective star ratings.
I don't expect us to win the SEC or NCAA tournaments every year. That is unrealistic. But it is also unrealistic to think that a bunch of freshmen will lead UK to the promised land. Until we get a coach that believes in a balanced roster, recruits to build a team of complimentary players, and has a goal of putting the best team on the floor that can compete for championships, we will have seasons like the past 3, up and down.
I'm not sure you could be more opposite in how Pope and Cal approach coaching. It'll be interesting to see which way prevails over the next 5 years. I know which one I'm picking!
Yeah, as I said in another thread, the 5* freshmen in themselves are not an issue. It’s the complete reliance on them. I’m loving the new philosophy here. Pope is still recruiting 5* kids but I think we’ll see a much better balance with one or two of those, multi-year guys like Chandler who could be stars after a couple years, and portal transfers.
Super excited about next years team and really hope Pope can prove out his system at this level so he can continue getting high ranked recruits and portal pieces that fit his system. I definitely don't think avoiding top HS players or hot portal pieces expecting huge NIL bags is a permanent solution though. I think the fanbase will need to adjust quickly to how we will lose games going forward. With Cal's teams we were more talented than everyone we played, even the top teams, and our losses were due to youth, lack of basketball IQ, and Cal's weird tactical and system decisions. With the current UK squad, we are going to lose games when Mark's coaching and our shooting on a given night cannot overcome the better "dudes" on the opposing side of the court. But there will be no reason to panic and I feel good about the future for the Pope era. I hope people don't start clamoring for the return to the Cal years just because some future NBA player drops 30 on us to cost us a game. Even as a diehard fan, by the end of the Cal era I could barely get myself to watch anything but the biggest games because they were so painful and frustrating. I don't want to go back to that.
Well either way Pope only had 2-3 weeks and had been recruiting a different level of players at BYU. Next year we’ll see more of what he is capable of.
I'm not going to knock Cal for his accomplishments while at Kentucky. He was the head coach at Kentucky and him or anyone else should have and was elated to land the greatest job in college basketball. He won a championship for us, and I am thankful for that. Everyone felt like we needed a change, and Cal himself, realized he wasn't the voice of the Wildcats anymore, and needed to step down. I think he felt pressure from the fans and that was who he won over the moment he stepped on to campus. I am, however, excited to see what Pope can do with the group that he has brought in here. I hope we see a team that has an offense somewhat differently than what we have ran in the past, and it will be fun watching these backdoor cuts, and people shooting threes all over the court. I think this was a breath of fresh air for Cat fans and I think Pope was the perfect hire. Did he have the resume others did, no, but he is diehard Kentucky and I feel like if we are patient and give him time, he will bring us another national championship and maybe an SEC championship or two as well. If they were a coach here, with the exception of Gilispie, I back them all. I may have disagreements or misunderstandings about some called plays, or defensive assignments but Cal was good for Kentucky and his record proved it. Many people don't take into consideration, that coaching, especially this day and time, isn't just about what you do on the court, it is how you handle your team off the court, and the things you do to make them better young men when they get older. Cal put numerous kids in the NBA, and although that was his ultimate goal, nobody can tell me it didn't tickle him to death to hang a championship banner in Rupp Arena. In saying that I hope we beat Arkansas to death this year, just like I hope we do the rest of the teams on our schedule.
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We will see how he recruits when he has more time to build a roster. Turnover happens everywhere (except Gonzaga this year), so the players we hope to stick around and develop for 4 years hopefully don't leave for more PT.
Yeah, it would be nice to see a collection of mentally & physically tough dudes running up and down the court wearing Kentucky basketball jerseys once again.
I never liked the Calipari hire from the word go, and I am among those who are thrilled he's finally gone.
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Cal may have basketball skills somewhere on his list of what he looks for but I doubt it’s as high as second.
Cal's Memphis rosters didn't look like what he was doing at Kentucky. The 2008 team was a perfect blend of both styles that Cal should've continued to focus on. It had one NBA star, a good scorer in CDR, and smart and physical role players.
Cal abandoned that and his entire brand became the one and done stuff after the 2010 squad. If it weren't for the NBA lockout, we probably don't win 2012.
Cal no longer looked at building a balanced team. It was basically an All-Star AAU team of 18/19 year olds where it was more about just gobbling up high ranked recruits regardless of position. Then we act shocked that the same issues continued to occur for a decade and we wonder why we got beat by less athletic teams who could shoot and play smart.
Cal abandoned that and his entire brand became the one and done stuff after the 2010 squad. If it weren't for the NBA lockout, we probably don't win 2012.
Cal no longer looked at building a balanced team. It was basically an All-Star AAU team of 18/19 year olds where it was more about just gobbling up high ranked recruits regardless of position. Then we act shocked that the same issues continued to occur for a decade and we wonder why we got beat by less athletic teams who could shoot and play smart.
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Pope also has a really high iq and when it comes to planning ahead and making strategy that can really come in handy.
I don't believe Cal has the same leverage at Arkansas as he did at UK.
Yes, they are excited to have him and the players he is bringing in, but the reality is he has more pressure than Pope.
Cal flames out with his first Arkansas team like he did with UK this year and immediately they are going to question him.
Will he continue to be committed to the style he had the past few years at UK or will he push for defense and spread out offense? Only he knows but the difference between Pope and Cal is Pope has a grace period. Cal has to win. He will be under immense pressure to beat Kentucky, make a deep run in the SECT and at least get to the Sweet 16 in the tourney.
Of course Pople has expectations too but he'll also be given the benefit of the doubt that he is putting the best team on the floor to win and every decision he makes is to improve the team, not a kids NBA profile.
Yes, they are excited to have him and the players he is bringing in, but the reality is he has more pressure than Pope.
Cal flames out with his first Arkansas team like he did with UK this year and immediately they are going to question him.
Will he continue to be committed to the style he had the past few years at UK or will he push for defense and spread out offense? Only he knows but the difference between Pope and Cal is Pope has a grace period. Cal has to win. He will be under immense pressure to beat Kentucky, make a deep run in the SECT and at least get to the Sweet 16 in the tourney.
Of course Pople has expectations too but he'll also be given the benefit of the doubt that he is putting the best team on the floor to win and every decision he makes is to improve the team, not a kids NBA profile.
Is a good post but I disagree about losing to teams with talent just because you can’t overcome the gap. Pope beat Kansas at Kansas and a few big names last year with less. And As Cal demonstrated talent doesn’t equate to wins. I much prefer a smart coach and a team full of high IQ basketball players. That was always Cal’s Achilles heel.
How do you honestly know their recruiting philosophy? They can't just pick anyone they want. Part of it is who agrees to come here.
When you look back at recent champions they all had an amazing group of older players and 1-2 big time recruits and that seems to be what Pope is aiming for, trying for 5 stars is great but relying on them like Cal did is where problems arise
Just like with Kelsey interested to see if either can get guys to stay multiple years and develop. IMO I think it is more likely for the local guys to stay opposed to entering the portal. That's why it was stupid for both previous head coaches (Cal and Payne) to not recruit Trent Noah.
This. He will keep recruiting five stars, but just as finishing pieces. Lets hope he can land one or two every year.
I agree with this. The 2025 recruiting class will give us a good glimpse into Pope's recruiting capabilities. What he's been tasked with having to do to assemble next years squad is far from what will be a normal off season.
Every single player Pope has gotten so far either has a reputation as a strong defender or a lights out shooter. I think I see a pattern rather than just taking what's available.
I am keeping an eye on :
1. High school kids....I feel like we still get 4 a year...but I'm interested to see if Pope can crack that top 5 kids that Duke has still got the market corndered upon (Flagg)
2. High school kids....will the kids that come to UK stick for 2-4 years (my bet is for sure it won't be as bad as Cal)
3. Portal I imagine will be higher proportion of our classes than Cal.
4. Athlete vs. skill level.....I think our wings/guards will almost assuredly be better shooters as a whole year in and year out.
1. High school kids....I feel like we still get 4 a year...but I'm interested to see if Pope can crack that top 5 kids that Duke has still got the market corndered upon (Flagg)
2. High school kids....will the kids that come to UK stick for 2-4 years (my bet is for sure it won't be as bad as Cal)
3. Portal I imagine will be higher proportion of our classes than Cal.
4. Athlete vs. skill level.....I think our wings/guards will almost assuredly be better shooters as a whole year in and year out.
Cal valued recruiting rankings even above athleticism. For example, he did recruit a total non-athlete out of HS in the glacially-slow Kyle Wiltjer. Why? Because Wiltjer was highly ranked as a 5 Star and a McDonald’s All American.
Cal’s player evaluation method seemed to be quite simple: look at the Rivals and ESPN numerical rankings and whoever had the higher number next to his name was the one he considered better for him.
I really think you hit the nail on the head because there are lots of other examples. Ware, Askew, Boston, Edwards are another four that were not great athletes or good shooters. They had only one thing in common, they were all rated as 5 stars by somebody prominent(Askew wound up only a 4 star by Rivals but after dropping and still was an Espn 5 star).
Yes, the people saying we need a big name have it all wrong. We need a TEAM that functions well together, passes the ball, puts it in the basket, team defense.......you don't need "a guy that can go get a bucket" for that.
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He started looking for a new job as soon as he saw that there weren’t going to be NIL funds there for him. He had no choice but to bolt or stay here and fail miserably.
It's not enough of a sample size and it might not even be his philosophy. Wait a few years and see.
Well, one thing we know for sure - the results CAN'T be any worse than the last several years!!! The POS who posed as a coach did not give a crap!
I think a good way to measure how different their approach to recruiting is , look at the offers they extend for next years class. I have a feeling there will be a few of the same recruits offered by both coaches.
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Jrpross
Agree with your post
However, the rating systems for high school players is very inaccurate (see Justin Edwards and Bradshaw being #1 and 2 last year). Trent Noah had the opportunity to go to a “basketball school” but chose to stay at Harlan to play and graduate with his friends. I applaud him! He is a 3 star but would probably be at least a 4-star had he left. These ratings are mainly based on measurables; such as wingspan, vertical jump, quickness and what school you attend; secondary are fundamental skills, and lastly is the kid a basketball player that has proven his ability on the court. You go to the right school and the 3* becomes a 4*, the 4 a 5*.
Also, some tremendous high school players peak and never get better. Dalton Knecht was not rated but grew and improved and will play in the NBA. Generally, I think it is true that a 5* is a better player/talent than a 2/3* but negligible difference between a 4 and 5 star.
You need as much talent as you can gather but important also is character (do other classmates and teachers like him), is he a team player or a stats guy, hard worker, is happy after a bad game personally but the team won, can take criticism etc. If I were visiting a prospect and the first utterance is how quickly can you get me to the NBA, I get up and leave. There are too many good players available, even in Div II.
I believe Coach Pope understands that talent alone does not guarantee success and will recruit players that fit UK and his style of play be they 1-year wonders or 4/5 year players. Very exciting time in Uk basketball history!
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