Lloyd Tubman Update...

[BigBlueFanGA]

Of course we don't know all the facts but it's fair to assume that exactly the same evidence was not presented to the GJ and to UK. Also, it's extremely likely that the accusor and the accused both testified at the UK hearing.

No, there is no way Tubman testified at the original hearing. There is also no way that hearing had more evidence than the GJ. The difference is UK needed only a preponderance of guilt. I'm sure Tubman spoke at the appeal, but as with most appeals, you will only win if you prove an error or oversight in the original hearing. Thus, Tubman couldn't win an appeal because he can't prove a negative. I will once again voice my concern over UK, or any school, holding a "civil" hearing while a criminal investigation is ongoing. It is unfair to the accused and defies what our country usually accepts as due process. If the alleged crime is serious enough, the accused could always be suspended from campus until an outcome is reached. Then a student conduct hearing could happen without an automatic bias against the accused.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Sure it does - it can force Tubman to testify. The Commonwealth Attorney cannot.

And this entire thread is based upon assumptions. There's been nothing official from UK, the UK football team, or Tubman that he's been expelled.

Thank you, you finally put into words what my issue is. UK can force Tubman to either testify or lose. That is really what you are saying and it is correct. But why should a school (the state) be allowed to leverage an accused person this way when their words could work against them in a far more important hearing. In other words, if someone is accused of a serious crime, their fate is most likely sealed by the school. They can't testify, but if they don't, they lose. Hence my use of "kangaroo court", and that description of what happened is correct.

 

[Blue Decade]

For practical purposes, there is no issue left to discuss. He won't play football for our team, and everything else being discussed here is speculation. Since this is a private matter for the student, UK isn't going to make an explanatory announcement. Unless Tubman comments, there is nothing to talk about. Time to move forward.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

For practical purposes, there is no issue left to discuss. He won't play football for our team, and everything else being discussed here is speculation. Since this is a private matter for the student, UK isn't going to make an explanatory announcement. Unless Tubman comments, there is nothing to talk about. Time to move forward.

I disagree, completely. There is much to discuss, but it is broader than the Tubman issue. I posted he would never play for UK when this first happened. The discussion needs to be about the SCB, who is on it, what training they have and how it is used. Is it appropriate to hold civil hearings when criminal proceedings are ongoing, thereby tying the accused hands.

 

[Blue Decade]

I disagree, completely. There is much to discuss, but it is broader than the Tubman issue. I posted he would never play for UK when this first happened. The discussion needs to be about the SCB, who is on it, what training they have and how it is used. Is it appropriate to hold civil hearings when criminal proceedings are ongoing, thereby tying the accused hands.

Respectfully, then, please write a letter to the local newspaper. I completely respect your point of view on this, and even agree with you to a certain extent. I certainly wish Tubman was on our team, and I don't like the way all of this happened. But Tubman is gone now, and this board is for discussions of Kentucky's football team, not for civil and legal matters. Everywhere a person turns these days, someone is prosecuting their views on civil issues in public. It's a good thing for our society, a strength of our nation, that people speak out about their views. But there are better and more appropriate places for that than a Kentucky football forum.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Well, thank you, but this board is for discussing UK issues and since a UK football player was caught in the machinery of the state, this is an appropriate board. I realize the discussion is getting old to many, so just ignore the rest of the thread, however long it may be.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Just ignore the thread if it does not appeal to you.

 

[johnnyrockets]

Ugh, if people want to debate this more, knock yourselves out. Just please stop posting things that aren't true (the UK hearing was AFTER the GJ decision, as has already been stated here), because you just muddy the waters for the rest of the discussion. But, hey, if you can't bedazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh**, right guys? I mean, just keep screaming conspiracy and sticking your fingers in your ears when anybody presents a reasoned explanation of how things could have gone down. If you respond to every single post, you'll wear the rest of us down and we'll just stop. Which will make you right in your own minds. You'll get to carry this "injustice" around with you for the rest of your life, furious with the "liberal bureaucracy" at UK and the joke of an AD in Barnhart who pretty much just hates UK football, right? That about sum it up?

Here's a link for those of you who will continue to insist that UK forced Tubman to testify while the DA was putting together evidence for the GJ hearing.

http://kentucky.247sports.com/Bolt/Tubman-staying-positive-through-it-all-35882318

Just keep moving those goalposts (football pun, get it?)

 

[vhcat70]

Timely:

"
And young women should be aware of the dangers that can come with too many drinks at parties. But so should young men.

Nacht has seen how the system can seriously harm the reputation and future of some students—especially male students. When universities investigate reported sexual misconduct, due process is often thrown out for the accused."

"In another instance of a hookup gone wrong, a young man who was a top student with high MCAT scores was suspended for a semester from UM, although he was never charged with a crime, and ultimately was shut out of medical schools."

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/op...5/05/22/jacques-campus-rape-problem/27775301/

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Ugh, if people want to debate this more, knock yourselves out. Just please stop posting things that aren't true (the UK hearing was AFTER the GJ decision, as has already been stated here), because you just muddy the waters for the rest of the discussion. But, hey, if you can't bedazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh**, right guys? I mean, just keep screaming conspiracy and sticking your fingers in your ears when anybody presents a reasoned explanation of how things could have gone down. If you respond to every single post, you'll wear the rest of us down and we'll just stop. Which will make you right in your own minds. You'll get to carry this "injustice" around with you for the rest of your life, furious with the "liberal bureaucracy" at UK and the joke of an AD in Barnhart who pretty much just hates UK football, right? That about sum it up?

Here's a link for those of you who will continue to insist that UK forced Tubman to testify while the DA was putting together evidence for the GJ hearing.

http://kentucky.247sports.com/Bolt/Tubman-staying-positive-through-it-all-35882318

Just keep moving those goalposts (football pun, get it?)

Good Lord, you're a bit confused. Yep, the appeal was after the GJ decision. As your article pointed out, he had already been "expelled". Riddle me this, who expelled him So if you're going to be sn snippy, how about at least getting your facts right.
http://kywildcatsnation.com/lloyd-tubmans-future-at-uk-may-be-up-to-the-office-of-student-conduct/

Clearly a disciplinary board had already met before the GJ decision.

 

[jauk11]

You know, it wasn't like Adams was a great guy. He'd been drinking and smoking for a while in a car that he knew was stolen. I know he got screwed, but I'm not willing to canonize him.

Drinking AND smoking, why he was committing slow suicide anyway, although a lot of people claim they didn't know it at the time----some even deny it hurts their health now. Why, he deserved the death penalty.

Oh, almost forgot, that's what he got.

 

[jauk11]

vhcat70 said: ↑
Timely:

"
And young women should be aware of the dangers that can come with too many drinks at parties. But so should young men.

Nacht has seen how the system can seriously harm the reputation and future of some students—especially male students. When universities investigate reported sexual misconduct, due process is often thrown out for the accused."

"In another instance of a hookup gone wrong, a young man who was a top student with high MCAT scores was suspended for a semester from UM, although he was never charged with a crime, and ultimately was shut out of medical schools."

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/op...5/05/22/jacques-campus-rape-problem/27775301/
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link, there are a lot of similarities in the two situations. While in that case the student was a scholastic star and Tubman was an athletic star, and more importantly doesn't seem to have been in trouble before, unlike UL's 2nd and 3rd chances------which he may be joining.

Being an athletic star in front of this particular group was likely a disadvantage if anything, and I pointed out two instances that tend to back that up, Tarkanian being forced out of UNLV and the UK academic group that nixed the LOAN with INTEREST to renovate the scoreboards which was a small part of the money football had GIVEN them over the years.

I still think it was odd that while mitch wasn't able to raise the money until two years after they were supposed to be replaced it only took him a day or so to find the replacement money, LOL.

I lie, actually it was pretty tragic, but it still took the strike to wake UK up, and now we have Athletics giving UK academics about $40,000,000 for a new building AND raising another $60,000,000 for another project. This PLUS gaining enough contributions for the $45,000,000 for the football center-----which will make even more money for UK in the future.

Penny wise and pound foolish, I hope they are over that stage, football is a VERY profitable BUSINESS, and could have and should have been more so much earlier.[/QUOTE]

 

[2330859]

[WKU's a small nobody in the college football world,QUOTE="JHB4UK, post: 1669716, member: 58"]

This "small nobody in the college football world" beat UK twice the last 2 times they played.

 

[jauk11]

[WKU's a small nobody in the college football world,QUOTE="JHB4UK, post: 1669716, member: 58"]

This "small nobody in the college football world" beat UK twice the last 2 times they played.

Yeah, and they shouldn't have either time and probably won't ever again, and while you seem to be over the Kragthorpe years we are just now getting over the Joker years-----and I blame a LOT of that problem on the lack of support for football, which doesn't seem to be a problem since the strike.

Also noticed that WKU has ONE player as a starter and ONE player second team from the giant class BP recruited there, 33 recruits I believe with only THREE three stars in it. Of course recruiting high school players probably won't be a great issue at Transfer U as long as jurich and BP are there, a lot of UL's four stars talent isn't between their ears. And they have always seemed to have Trinity locked up and a few other excellient players in city that they get-----well, that used to be the case anyway...

 

[BillyBones]

a little bird told me that Lloyd Tubman is headed to Trinity Valley Community College in Texas a fresh start for him at a great program..GOODSPEED Lloyd!!!!!

 

[jauk11]

a little bird told me that Lloyd Tubman is headed to Trinity Valley Community College in Texas a fresh start for him at a great program..GOODSPEED Lloyd!!!!!

I hope he has a great career, and suspect he just might do that. No doubt a big setback and downgrade in coaching AND other amenities, facilities and S&C, but doubt very much he ever finds himself in this situation again. I also hope that career doesn't include sacking UK QBs.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I hope he has a great career, and suspect he just might do that. No doubt a big setback and downgrade in coaching AND other amenities, facilities and S&C, but doubt very much he ever finds himself in this situation again. I also hope that career doesn't include sacking UK QBs.

He will be back in Div 1 in a year.

 

[BillyBones]

He will be back in Div 1 in a year.

agreed..

 

[fuzz77]

Good Lord, you're a bit confused. Yep, the appeal was after the GJ decision. As your article pointed out, he had already been "expelled". Riddle me this, who expelled him So if you're going to be sn snippy, how about at least getting your facts right.
http://kywildcatsnation.com/lloyd-tubmans-future-at-uk-may-be-up-to-the-office-of-student-conduct/

Clearly a disciplinary board had already met before the GJ decision.

When he was arrested he was released from jail to his mother 's custody and thus suspended. There was no hearing, it was a procedural event.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

When he was arrested he was released from jail to his mother 's custody and thus suspended. There was no hearing, it was a procedural event.

True, but explain his mothers comments about the disciplinary board. I linked the article. There had clearly been a hearing. What we've seen after the GJ announcement has been his appeals process, which has been exhausted.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I wonder if he keeps his nose clean if he can appeal to UK again in one year after a year at Juco.

The review board has him in a pickle. The rules keep all of this private, which is reasonable. But, it also puts Tubman in a tough spot as a quasi public figure. Everyone knows the allegation and that the SRB has punished him harshly. If he permits them to release the ruling, he lives with that for life. But, now he lives with the result and has no way to publicly defend himself and is subject to rank conjecture. He loses, even though the GJ said no probably cause existed of a crime.

 

[loucatfan]

Trinity valley are the cardinals and of course their color red. Hope that doesn't portend things to come. Hopefully time will heal and in a year UK will accept him back.

 

[BengalWACO]

UK handled this like a bunch of dirty politicians... Kids are paying attention. INNOCENT... UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. Ashamed of the decision here.. I hope Lloyd DESTROYS the competition and becomes one of the best pass rushers in the history of the game.. What a coward stance we took here..

 

[loucatfan]

UK handled this like a bunch of dirty politicians... Kids are paying attention. INNOCENT... UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. Ashamed of the decision here.. I hope Lloyd DESTROYS the competition and becomes one of the best pass rushers in the history of the game.. What a coward stance we took here..

Waco,
We need to send you to sensitivity training.

(Joking. Agree with your post.)

Lou

 

[BBBLazing]

UK handled this like a bunch of dirty politicians... Kids are paying attention. INNOCENT... UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. Ashamed of the decision here.. I hope Lloyd DESTROYS the competition and becomes one of the best pass rushers in the history of the game.. What a coward stance we took here..

Do any of you know what policy the UK board accused him of violating? Quit saying that because the grand jury didn't indict him he did not violate UK policy. I don't know if he did, but neither do any of you. So quit responding with such righteous indignation.

 

[jauk11]

Do any of you know what policy the UK board accused him of violating? Quit saying that because the grand jury didn't indict him he did not violate UK policy. I don't know if he did, but neither do any of you. So quit responding with such righteous indignation.

So, you just stated that you don't know if he did or not, but you keep talking about it like it is a fact. LOL You don't know what happened but you demand that anyone on the other side know exactly what happened or they can't have their opinion?

So, what do you think he did, rob a bunch of convenience stores, run around campus shooting a Uzi, what? Oh, you don't know, but everyone else has to know before they can have an opinion.

And do you really think he would be in any trouble if he hadn't been charged with rape by one ex-girl friend?

 

[BengalWACO]

Do any of you know what policy the UK board accused him of violating? Quit saying that because the grand jury didn't indict him he did not violate UK policy. I don't know if he did, but neither do any of you. So quit responding with such righteous indignation.

No Sir, I do not. I apologize if I come off as righteous.. I am just for a gentleman not having his dreams of playing for my favorite school (or anywhere for that matter) because of a few people who MAY or MAY NOT have had a reason to bump him from the academic institution based on... I guess, for all I have to go on, an accused rape by a lady who couldn't even provide enough evidence to further the case. I am sorry if I am ruffling any feathers, just doesn't seem right for Mr. Tubman. UNLESS, as you say, there was a "UK Policy" he violated... I would love to know what that is then... Seems pretty convenient on the University Of Kentucky to all of a sudden find a violation.. was this kid trouble before this alleged "rape".

 

[BBBLazing]

So, you just stated that you don't know if he did or not, but you keep talking about it like it is a fact. LOL You don't know what happened but you demand that anyone on the other side know exactly what happened or they can't have their opinion?

So, what do you think he did, rob a bunch of convenience stores, run around campus shooting a Uzi, what? Oh, you don't know, but everyone else has to know before they can have an opinion.

And do you really think he would be in any trouble if he hadn't been charged with rape by one ex-girl friend?

What is your opinion? All I'm asking is that you all quit having an opinion that he is innocent. I don't have an opinion that he is guilty. None of us have enough information to form an opinion. I ask that you admit that.

 

[BBBLazing]

No Sir, I do not. I apologize if I come off as righteous.. I am just for a gentleman not having his dreams of playing for my favorite school (or anywhere for that matter) because of a few people who MAY or MAY NOT have had a reason to bump him from the academic institution based on... I guess, for all I have to go on, an accused rape by a lady who couldn't even provide enough evidence to further the case. I am sorry if I am ruffling any feathers, just doesn't seem right for Mr. Tubman. UNLESS, as you say, there was a "UK Policy" he violated... I would love to know what that is then... Seems pretty convenient on the University Of Kentucky to all of a sudden find a violation.. was this kid trouble before this alleged "rape".

Do you really think Uk is trying to conveniently get rid of good football players? Do you know if he is a "gentleman" as you describe him? I'm not against him, but the the arrest report paints him as less than a gentleman. I'm just asking you all to quit being homers. We know what he was charged with criminally. We don't know what he was accused of at UK. How can you say he was wrongfully convicted at UK when you don't even know what he was charged of? Are you allowed to bite people? Ask Al Michels.

 

[BBBLazing]

I ask Loucatfan and jauk11 both to admit that they do not know whether he violated UK policies.

 

[jauk11]

What is your opinion? All I'm asking is that you all quit having an opinion that he is innocent. I don't have an opinion that he is guilty. None of us have enough information to form an opinion. I ask that you admit that.

"All I'm asking is that you all quit having an opinion that he is innocent." LOL

Is there anything else that I shouldn't have an opinion about, oh mighty one.

Can I keep posting on the football forum as long as I check with you about what opinion I can have?

 

[jauk11]

I ask Loucatfan and jauk11 both to admit that they do not know whether he violated UK policies.

Are you nuts? Neither of us have said we KNOW what happened, and when I went to UK there was probably a policy that you weren't even supposed to be in a Coeds room, let alone having sex, consensual or not. I do hope that everyone on here doesn't have to agree with your opinion. I have broken a lot of dumb "Policies" in my life probably, but nothing that I thought would hurt someone. Maybe he forgot to turn the light off in the room when he left?

Look, if I was on a Grand Jury and thought someone was guilty of rape, I would vote for an indictment whether I thought he would be convicted or not, the least a rapist would expect to get from me, at least he would get that punishment.

 

[BengalWACO]

Do you really think Uk is trying to conveniently get rid of good football players?

Do I think this would happen in an era that proves you can have both a successful basketball AND Football program, my answer would be no.

Do you know if he is a "gentleman" as you describe him? I'm not against him, but the the arrest report paints him as less than a gentleman.

I guess I should quit being a "homer" and read this report. I am just going on how the jury ruled. Police are not judge and jury.

How can you say he was wrongfully convicted at UK when you don't even know what he was charged of? Are you allowed to bite people? Ask Al Michels.

I can say he was wrongfully convicted of RAPE... based on lack of substantial evidence. I have no idea what what UK folks booted him for... UNLESS you have that info as well. ALL I KNOW is the RAPE PART was BOGUS.

 

[robo222]

I disagree, completely. There is much to discuss, but it is broader than the Tubman issue. I posted he would never play for UK when this first happened. The discussion needs to be about the SCB, who is on it, what training they have and how it is used. Is it appropriate to hold civil hearings when criminal proceedings are ongoing, thereby tying the accused hands.

I agree with you... Things are changing out there in small ways... I don't know that it's good thing? It's my opinion that we have entered an era where decision making is skewed towards, the end, justifying the means,.... I see this happening in various areas but mostly we see it in politics of today... I think some felt he was going to be more trouble than they wanted to deal with so they cut bait... Just a simple way of ridding oneself of any potential BS.... He's a football player... A young player... A player with few resources... A player of untested value...

Now... were he...say.... running for high political office and accused of awful things???? Then maybe we try and sweep it under the rug... Ignore it... Change the topic... Obfuscate... yeah I like that word.... Means baffle you with BS

 

[bigblueinsanity]

What is your opinion? All I'm asking is that you all quit having an opinion that he is innocent. I don't have an opinion that he is guilty. None of us have enough information to form an opinion. I ask that you admit that.

Are you related to or friends with the girl or employed by her lawyer? This is really the only way anyone could post some of the stuff you've posted.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

What is your opinion? All I'm asking is that you all quit having an opinion that he is innocent. I don't have an opinion that he is guilty. None of us have enough information to form an opinion. I ask that you admit that.

In the absence of evidence proving guilt (which you admit we don't have), we are supposed to presume his innocence. Would you agree?

 

[Caveman Catfan]

What is your opinion? All I'm asking is that you all quit having an opinion that he is innocent. I don't have an opinion that he is guilty. None of us have enough information to form an opinion. I ask that you admit that.

I think most people realize that the allegation of sexual assault was rejected by the Grand Jury that had the actual evidence to review. Legally speaking, that makes him not guilty of the charges, as determined by that aspect of due process. Not a plea. Not a prosecution and acquittal. But, rather, all charges dropped because the evidence was insufficient. Some think that insignificant. Others say that is supportive of he claim that he did nothing wrong.

We know the school initiated its action upon the same circumstances and it leveled one of the harshest penalties permitted under its own rules. So, considering the fact that kids break drug laws and do not get expelled, some of us feel it safe to assume the SRB did not conclude he broke a minor school rule.

If he is not guilty of a heinous wrong against another, some clearly see a board of people who might desire to protect the university's reputation or side with an alleged victim regardless of the facts for PR reasons as a biased process that may not have protected his rights as much as her rights. Especially since it appears the foundation proceeding took place when he was under threat of criminal prosecution.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Maybe the homers are the ones who think people should just accept that UK did something right, even though the process cannot be reviewed and or second guessed, especially when the legal system took a complete pass on the allegations.

 

[cat_in_the_hat]

Do you really think Uk is trying to conveniently get rid of good football players? Do you know if he is a "gentleman" as you describe him? I'm not against him, but the the arrest report paints him as less than a gentleman. I'm just asking you all to quit being homers. We know what he was charged with criminally. We don't know what he was accused of at UK. How can you say he was wrongfully convicted at UK when you don't even know what he was charged of? Are you allowed to bite people? Ask Al Michels.

This is the kind of reasoning that drives me crazy. She admitted to also biting him on his hand. So if the bite was the violation, wouldn't she also be in violation?

 

[Bigbluediddy63]

UK handled this like a bunch of dirty politicians... Kids are paying attention. INNOCENT... UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. Ashamed of the decision here.. I hope Lloyd DESTROYS the competition and becomes one of the best pass rushers in the history of the game.. What a coward stance we took here..

Agreed, when will UK have the guts to make an actual statement. Do they think people are just going to forget about this?