Jay Bruce sucks.......

Discussion in 'The On-Deck Circle - Baseball Forum' started by PTI (pti), Jun 3, 2009.

  1. PTI (pti)

    PTI (pti) All-American

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    ....true story. He's Adam Dunn, without all the walks.


    Bruce = .220 batting avg / .296 on-base% / .494 slugging% / 14 homers / 18 walks / 45 ks
    ADunn = .269 batting avg / .399 on-base% / .571 slugging% / 16 homers / 40 walks / 56 ks


    He's also more or less a situational/platoon hitter. Versus lefties, he's only slightly more dangerous than my grandmother (god rest her soul).

    So far this season, he's hitting .176 with 1 home run and 4 rbi vs. lefties. That's just disgusting.



    I'm not saying his career is over, or that he'll never improve, but he's never done anything in his entire career that would suggest he's ready to become a true star. He's been the same hitter his entire professional career. Lots of power, lots of ks, no walks.


    2009 (mlb) = 2.50 ks/walk
    2008 (mlb) = 3.33 ks/walk
    2008 (aaa) = 3.75 ks/walk
    2007 (a-aa)= 2.87 ks/walk
    2006 (a) = 2.41 ks/walk




    Not a good sign at all for his future. At this point, he's more Russell Branyan than he is Adam Dunn.
     
  2. bigbluefattycat

    bigbluefattycat All-American

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    He plays gold glove caliber defense in left with good speed on the bases. Fat Donkey is a softball player.

    Baby Donkey is still young and he doesn't have Whiffey or Fat Donkey around any longer to teach him any more bad habits.

    Let's all hope he can get his head discipline back at the plate. He is not seeing the ball at all.
     
  3. Jeff Drummond

    Jeff Drummond All-American

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    Although I'll agree nothing is as bad as Dunn in the OF, Bruce's defense has left a lot to be desired lately. Still, I'd be willing to overlook it with a better approach at the plate. Guys that don't seem to have any rhyme or reason at the dish irritate the hell out of me.
     
  4. bigbluefattycat

    bigbluefattycat All-American

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    Let me clarify. Gold glove caliber compared to Whiffey and Fat Donkey.
     
  5. sinker16

    sinker16 Sophomore

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    Dude....he just turned 22. What a stupid post.
     
  6. trueBLUE0333

    trueBLUE0333 Senior

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    I have an offer to trade Bruce for Vlad Guerrero and Juan Pierre in Fantasy Baseball. Shout I accept?
     
  7. Jeff Drummond

    Jeff Drummond All-American

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    In a New York minute, even with Vlad's diminished skills/health.
     
  8. bigbluefattycat

    bigbluefattycat All-American

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    It would be a stupid post if the Reds had the rep of developing players but as PTI said Bruce is becoming more and more like Fat Donkey hence the Beavis nickname of Baby Donkey. The chances of Jacoby or any other idiot in the Reds dugout developing Bruce are slimmer than a toothpick. Edwin, Dunn, Kearns, and etc. have not developed. They are basically the same players they were at the age of 22.
     
  9. Beavis606

    Beavis606 All-American

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    Didn't take him long to get a gut, either.
     
  10. PTI (pti)

    PTI (pti) All-American

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    Now you're just making excuses. In case you haven't noticed, Jay Bruce didn't have Adam Dunn or Ken Griffey around to "teach him any more bad habits" when he was a minor leaguer (and striking out 3x as often as he walked). And they aren't around now, either. He played with those guys for all of about 100 games last season. So don't put the blame on them. Hell, he could *learn* something from Adam Dunn --> how to take a walk. At no point in his professional career has he figured that out.

    I completely understand he's young, but he has been the same hitter everywhere he's been as a professional = tons of ks, very few walks, lots of power.



    Sorry, but Jay Bruce is who he is. And at every single similar age up to this point in their careers, Adam Dunn is/was a better ballplayer. In many cases, he is/was *significantly* better. Sorry, but it's true.



    by the way....



    ADunn (aaa - 55 games @ 21 years old) = .329 / .441 / .676 / 20 homers / 51 ks / 38 walks
    Bruce (aaa - 49 games @ 21 years old) = .364 / .393 / .630 / 10 homers / 45 ks / 12 walks
     
  11. Beavis606

    Beavis606 All-American

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    At least he's still cheap.

    Baby Donkey ($400,000) x 20 = Big Donkey ($8,000,000)
     
  12. WildcatDJ

    WildcatDJ Junior

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  13. bigbluefattycat

    bigbluefattycat All-American

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    Take those numbers and put them on your fantasy team all day for all I care but don't try to tell me that Fat Donkey is a better baseball player than Bruce.

    Bruce can run, throw, and play the field.
     
  14. 3 fan

    3 fan All-American

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    What I wonder is what happened to Bruce's running? Didn't he like steal 25 bases one year in minors?
     
  15. Beavis606

    Beavis606 All-American

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    6 SBs in rookie ball in 2005
    19 SBs in A ball in 2006
    8 steals in A/AA/AAA in 2007
    8 steals in AAA last year before getting called up
     
  16. PTI (pti)

    PTI (pti) All-American

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    Negative. But Adam Dunn did swipe 19 his rookie year. In his first 157 games, Jay Bruce has 7.


    So, where are you clowns getting this info that Jay Bruce can run so well? Is this some sort of hidden talent that he's keeping bottled up inside of him for some reason??



    Look, I'm as glas as anyone that we got rid of Adam Dunn. That was long overdue. But anyone who's defending Jay Bruce and criticizing Adam Dunn has their head completely shoved up their ass.

    Jay Bruce is getting on base 29.6% of the time he comes to the plate this season. That is Jeff Francoeur bad. Adam Dunn's career on-base% = 38.2%.


    You'd have to record an outfield assist every other game to make up for that lack of ability at the plate. TS.
     
  17. UK_Is_Good

    UK_Is_Good Senior

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    For someone who is only 22 and has just 156 big league games under his belt, it's way to early to say Jay Bruce sucks. That being said, he is really struggling right now.
     
  18. bigbluefattycat

    bigbluefattycat All-American

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    Being able to run does not equal stolen bases. Covering ground in the outfield, going first to third on a hit, and hustling does equal ability to run. You continue to try to justify your argument with stats because that is what fantasy baseball players do. Watch the damn game. If you don't think Bruce can run better than Fat Donkey then I don't want to argue with you because it is pointless. We are a better team with Bruce on the field and Dunn gone period.

    Jay Bruce was the number 1 prospect in baseball for a reason. Will he pan out? I don't know. I can only hope.
     
  19. PTI (pti)

    PTI (pti) All-American

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  20. bigbluefattycat

    bigbluefattycat All-American

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    PTI stop watching box scores and watch the game. Teams lose playing softball players like Dunn. Bruce is a baseball player. Even when he doesn't hit he helps you in the field. There is not a number that measures ability to cover ground, arm strength, first to third on hit, or score from 2nd on a hit. There is a reason that Dunn has never played for a winner. If you want to argue that he has put up better fantasy stats go ahead you won't get an argument from me. If I am putting a real baseball team together that actually has to play defense and win I am taking Bruce all day long.

    We got rid of Dunn for more than just his piss poor play. Stats don't win games. Players do.
     
  21. DK Cat

    DK Cat Freshman

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    I agree with you especially in baseball that stats can be very deceptive.
     
  22. ScaryEnigma

    ScaryEnigma Senior

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    This is going to get bashed but the Reds would be a better team with Dunn this year. Should the reds have signed him? probably not considering the money and being a small market team. I wish they would have tho. But the reds would have been a better team this year. Would have made the Reds a formidable lineup..maybe even scary instead of a very mediocre offense(even with votto) The problem was Griffey. He couldnt field or hit.

    Dunn wasn't the reason the reds or the Nationals this year suck. It was pitching during his tenure with the Reds and the nationals are probably the worst ever.

    And before fatty says the pitching sucked because because Dunn was in the outfield i will go ahead and reply with this here in this thread:

    [​IMG]
     
  23. bigbluefattycat

    bigbluefattycat All-American

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    Walt gave the keys to the clubhouse to Dunn when he traded Whiffey. That lasted a week. There is more to winning than just putting up numbers. Players win games. A stat aint ever won ish.
     
  24. PTI (pti)

    PTI (pti) All-American

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  25. K-GAR

    K-GAR Senior

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    PTI is spot on, Bruce is alarmingly gravitating toward a version of Adam Dunn who walks less and will end up with less power numbers.

    He has zero plate discipline and swings and misses waaaaay too much.... at balls out of the zone at that, at least dunn watched those go by

    OF assists are far from any indicator of defensive ability also, Bruce does have a great arm, but he's very very very average other than that defensively (did you also know that two of Bruce's assists were throws that got cut off and then the reds got a guy out in the rundown at another base, TS).

    All that being said, he is 22 and he *might* turn into a .280, 30HR, 90+ RBI guy, but every single thing he has done professionally indicates we'll be seeing more like .250, 30 HR, 80 RBI....

    even the year he absolutely busted out and became the number one prospect in baseball he had an OPS of .962, Dunn's final year in the minors ---> 1.116 [​IMG]
     
  26. Jeff Drummond

    Jeff Drummond All-American

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    Dunn was always a very productive player in the only stats that mattered: scoring runs and driving them in.

    His main "sin" (aside from allegedly being lazy) was being a good player instead of a great one.
     
  27. TCPUKChamps

    TCPUKChamps All-American
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    Bruce also has NOBODY hitting behind him for pitchers to fear.

    Until he starts taking walks, because they are going to be there, he is not going to develop.

    Fact is, hitting in front of Adam Rosales/Ramon Hernandez/Edwin Encarnacion/Ryan Hanigan means he isn't going to be seeing many fastballs.
     
  28. PTI (pti)

    PTI (pti) All-American

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    ^^

    And Dunn hit in front of.....



    ....[​IMG]


    If Bruce learns to take walks TODAY, it will be the first time in his entire life he's figured out how to do it. Seriously. I've got 5 years of statistics to prove it.


    Bruce has *4* rbi this year off left-handed pitching. FOUR. I've lost my manual --> what part of "winning baseball" is that??
     
  29. Beavis606

    Beavis606 All-American

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    Jay Bruce: Bats, they are sick. I cannot hit curveball. Straightball I hit it very much. Curveball, bats are afraid. I ask Jobu to come, take fear from bats. I offer him cigar, rum. He will come.

    George Grande: You know you might think about taking Jesus Christ as your savior instead of fooling around with all this stuff.

    Jay Bruce: Jesus, I like him very much, but he no help with curveball.

    George Grande: You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
     
  30. corbin3wildcats

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    THIS^^^^ and fifty games into the season??? Bruce right now is trying to do too much and just needs to relax and make better contact. All the hype is starting to catch up with him. looks like he's trying to pull the ball all the time. He'll get there...
    And to say he sucks is just ridiculous if u ask me.
     
  31. corbin3wildcats

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    So PTI, heard you liked Jay Bruce... [​IMG]
     
  32. bigblue11

    bigblue11 Junior

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    Jeff "Cowboy" Brantley: Yo, bartender! Jobu needs a refill!
     
  33. bigbluefattycat

    bigbluefattycat All-American

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    It's not. That is why we got rid of Fat Donkey. Pitching and defense is winning baseball. Bruce plays D. Fat Donkey kills you with his d and he is an automatic out vs lefties.

    Look up Fat Donkey's splits against lefties last year or rattle them off because you probably know the stats by heart.
     
  34. AfroGerman Santa

    AfroGerman Santa All-American

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    Bruce has been very disappointing this year at the dish, for sure. Mainly because he's so damn impatient. First pitch swinging, 0-2 or 1-2 counts every time up. It's getting ridiculous.

    He also needs to learn to shorten his swing to contact on 2 strike counts. Something fat donkey could never do. His swing is much better than Dunn's and has substantially fewer holes. A great approach will improve his avg by 30-40 points alone.

    Having said that, he plays an absolute *stellar* right field. As good as you could ask, really.

    Covers a ton of ground for a corner fielder and has a GD CANNON for an arm. I saw him have one assist this year (sitting in the right side stands with a great view of the play) that I didn't think he had a freaking prayer to pull off, yet he hosed the guy by a step and a half.

    Dunn wouldn't have hit the cutoff man yet, True Story.

    Combined with his great attitude and relentless hustle, I'd hardly call him a bust at this point. I really don't think he's *hurting* the team right now (something I thought Dunn did a LOT), but he should absolutely be helping them more.
     
  35. PTI (pti)

    PTI (pti) All-American

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    Jay Bruce may be "young," but that excuse can only last so long. And that's also why I look back at their minor league #s. Bruce and Dunn both started their professional careers at 18 years old, and made it to the big club at the age of 21.

    ADunn (343 games) = .304 / .425 / .525 / 63 home runs / 270 ks / 230 walks
    Bruce (353 games) = .308 / .366 / .555 / 61 home runs / 339 ks / 125 walks



    Look, I'm all about pitching and defense and moving runners over and small ball and sac flies and squeez plays and yada yada yada. But you cannot change the fact that...

    - we all pretty much agree that Adam Dunn sucks
    - and Jay Bruce has been decidely less productive at every single step of his professional career



    By the way, he's now 5 for his last 43. All the defense in the world won't make up for that complete ineptitude.


    And just curious, by why did everyone *despise* Adam Dunn so much for constantly striking out...


    ....yet Jay Bruce gets a pass? Is it okay to strike out all the effing time, as long as you hustle and have a cannon for an arm?


    (hint: no)
     
  36. PTI (pti)

    PTI (pti) All-American

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  37. UKandoit

    UKandoit All-SEC

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    Jay Bruce is a 22 yr old, playing in his 1st full season in the majors, playing better defensively then Adam ever hoped to play, struggling at the plate yet on pace to hit 40+ dingers(quick, name me all the 22 yr olds who have hit 40 hrs in the history of mlb?)& also appears to have a good additude and is apparently a good teamate...yet some will already try to point to his failures. The kid is still learning and I'll think I'll wait before I decide to dismiss him as just another Dunn-like or less performer. Put it this way, put this kid on the trading block and watch em line up to get this guy. No way you can justifyably say this kid sucks at this point in his career.
     
  38. K-GAR

    K-GAR Senior

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    I'll name you another 22 year who will *not* hit 40 HR's --> Jay Bruce, he will top out at about 30-35 MAX this year, he's not a 40 HR guy. DUnner also was perceived at this stage to have a great attitude and be a good teammate, Dunn morphed over hte next few years into the guy reds fans were so split on.

    BOttom line is that Bruce is heading more and more down the line of Dunn minus the walks ---> not good.
    This post was edited on 6/4 4:11 AM by K-GAR
     
  39. bigbluefattycat

    bigbluefattycat All-American

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    "Brandon Phillips was trying to compliment Laynce Nix after a great night where he hit two home runs, drove in four runs and saved a run with a nice left field catch in the Reds' 9-3 win.

    But read this quote and see if you pick up on the veiled shot of the night:

    "It's good to have a guy in left field that can hit the ball and who can catch the ball."

    I guess Phillips doesn't miss Adam Dunn's lackluster defense in left field. By the way, the Nationals and Reds play each other next week in DC."

    Mark Sheldon
     
  40. bigbluefattycat

    bigbluefattycat All-American

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    "It's always hard ot judge clubhouse dynamics from the outside. But it's pretty clear the Reds' is working. Of the eight positions players who started Wednesday night, six had spent time in Triple-A last year. All they did was scored nine runs on 13 hits. "


    And yet we still have people saying they want the Fat Donkey back. I have said it for at least 3 years now that we would be a better team without Whiffey and Fat Donkey. We get rid of them and the clubhouse is healthier and the defense is better. Better defense equals better pitching. Better pitching equals winning baseball. Winning is the only stat that matters Chief.

    John Fay
     
  41. PTI (pti)

    PTI (pti) All-American

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    Yes, he's only 22 years old - which is why I am making such an issue of his minor league numbers as well.

    - he's ridiculously bad against lefties
    - he strikes out at an alarming rate
    - he very very rarely walks

    These facts are indisputable. Sure, he may eventually "iron out the kinks." He may "get it all figured out." Maybe he'll "straighten out his swing." But he has done *nothing* in his 5+ years of professional baseball to suggest that there is any hope in doing so. Sorry, but don't shoot the messenger.


    And if his trade value really is sky high, Walt Jocketty needs to jump all over that asap.

    Another interesting stat, by the way. In their professional careers....

    Bruce = 48 steals / 32 caught stealing (60% success rate)
    ADunn = 119 steals / 41 caught stealing (74.4% success rate)




    [​IMG]
     
  42. AfroGerman Santa

    AfroGerman Santa All-American

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    If you're going to say he's nothing but Dunn minus the walks, you have to include the defense he plays.

    I'm a defense first baseball fan so this is a sticking point with me. (Lack of) defense is the reason why I hated Dunn and defense is the reason why I haven't thrown in the towel on Bruce.

    If Dunn played defense like Bruce, I would be pissed we got rid of him and I'd be defending him in this thread. If Bruce played defense like Dunn I'd want his ass gone yesterday.

    To me it's as ridiculous as saying Ron Artest is nothing but Kiki Vandeweghe minus the 3 PT FG%.
     
  43. DK Cat

    DK Cat Freshman

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    I agree, nothing bothers me more than a big league player misplaying a fly ball or missing a cutoff man. Dunn's defense was even more magnified when Griffey played because you basically had 2 corner outfielders who covered absolutely no ground and routinely played would be outs into basehits. With that being said, Bruce definitely needs to start picking it up. He looks totally clueless at the plate.
     
  44. PTI (pti)

    PTI (pti) All-American

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    ** bigbluefatty is getting a hard-on **


    1> Corey Patterson (CF)
    2> Orlando Cabrera (SS)
    3> Jay Bruce (RF)
    4> Adrian Beltre (3B)
    5> Doug Mientkiewicz (1B)
    6> Jeff Francoeur (LF)
    7> David Eckstein (2B)
    8> Brad Ausmus (C)


    Pitching and defense wins championships.
     
  45. JumperJack

    JumperJack All-SEC

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    He's way too young to say he sucks. Barely played a full year. 35 HR in less 158 games, while hitting poorly against lefties. He'll figure it out.
     
  46. PTI (pti)

    PTI (pti) All-American

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    Based on what?

    Been a professional for 5+ years. He's *never* hit lefties. He's *never* learned to work the count. He's *always* been a huge strikeout guy.



    If you think he'll figure it out --> why?
     
  47. UKandoit

    UKandoit All-SEC

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    The following power hitters are players who failed to hit at least 40 hr by the age of 22:

    Babe Ruth
    Lou Gehrig
    K. Griffey jr.
    Willie Mays
    Mickey Mantle
    Ted Williams
    Hank Aaron
    Jimmy Foxx

    Exceptions to this would be: Alex Rodriguez, Eddie Mathews & Mel Ott.

    IF(nothing is certain) Jay Bruce does hit at least 40 hr this season then he will be in a select group for sure. Does this mean I think he can't be a better hitter for Avg? No, it does not but it does mean I think he he is a long long way from someone who'd I would say "sucks". Just my opinion. PS. You can also add Barry Bonds, Mark Mcguire & Frank Robinson to the list of those failing to hit 40 Hr by age 22.
    This post was edited on 6/4 2:35 PM by UKandoit
     
  48. bigbluefattycat

    bigbluefattycat All-American

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    That line up will beat any team with Fat Donkey in left and batting in the middle of the line up. Fat Donkey = bad baseball team. Reds sucked for how many years with Donkey? Arizona goes from contender to bust as soon as they get the donkey. Washington will never win. Donkey = bad baseball. He gives you nothing but a lazy attitude and a bad contract but hey your fantasy team will come in 2nd place.

    PTI was screaming how we gonna replace the Donkey's numbers. This line up sucks. We continue to throw a terrible line up on the field night in and night out yet we are on pace to score more runs this year than last. Take your 40 hrs and 100 walks to the last place Nationals.

    You want stats try looking at the 90 Reds team and find me a player with 40 homers. Stats don't win baseball games. Players do.

    Is Bruce struggling? Yes. Has Donkey struggled just like Bruce every year? Yes.

    Difference? One can help you win games in the field. The other cost you more games than you can imagine because you can't tell what baseball is unless there is a stat for it.

    Stats are for losers and fantasy geeks that like to make up line ups from stats.
     
  49. PTI (pti)

    PTI (pti) All-American

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    Here are some other hitters that failed to hit 40 homers by the age of 22:

    - Braulio Castillo
    - Bernardo Brito
    - Spike Owen
    - Vance Law
    - Rusty Koontz
    - Odibe Mcdowell
    - Phil Plantier


    (more irrelevant names)



    Okay, I'll admit once again that I'm going a little overboard by saying that Jay Bruce "sucks." But you guys who are sticking up for him are *completely* fooling yourselves, and ignoring 5+ years of statistical data when you're evaluating his performance.




    Jay Bruce strikes out at an ALARMINGLY high rate. Fact. If he's all-of-a-sudden going to "get it figured out," what exactly would lead you to believe this?

    Jay Bruce walks at an ALARMINGLY low rate. Fact. If he's all-of-a-sudden going to "get it figured out," what exactly would lead you to believe this?


    Look, all I'm doing is relaying the data. It's right there in black-and-white. Check it out for yourselves. He very well could become a great hitter one day. But the fact is, in 5+ years of professional baseball, there has been nothing he has done to prove me otherwise.
     
  50. UKandoit

    UKandoit All-SEC

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    This post was edited on 6/4 2:46 PM by UKandoit
     

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