Why does "hiring one of our own" usually not work out ? Payne(Louisville) Howard(Michigan) Ewing(Georgetown) Woodson(Indiana) etc
- Thread starter Uncle Adolph
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Buzz Peterson at North Carolina going back a bit.
Chris Mullin at St Johns
Chris Mullin at St Johns
Pretty sure that none of those listed had prior college head coach experience. That is one factor. Hard to learn on the job at a D1 school. Another factor is that they just aren't very good.
Sort of like we do when we suggest that Rondo/Anderson/who ever used to play for us, would be a great assistant....only to the Nth degree.
Sort of like we do when we suggest that Rondo/Anderson/who ever used to play for us, would be a great assistant....only to the Nth degree.
Think you meant Matt Doherty.
Speaking to the Ewing/GTown debacle, Patrick was begged to come back to help and Big John (RIP) knew he'd allow him to still run the program in his way despite Ewing wanting to do several things differently. Some old heads were allowed to stay in roles to collect $ and not for their ability to impact the program positively.
For instance-John Thompson's younger son Ronny was allowed to be on payroll as Director of Basketball Operations but often on gamedays would be calling an A-10 basketball game for formerly NBC Sports Cable network which is now Peacock. So how serious is a guy about his job when he's not even with the team on gamedays?
Big John was running the program when his son took over as well and screwed that up recruiting wise with pulling a fast one against DC Assault and instead of Michael Beasley joining the '08 team to replace Jeff Green, Big John had Green sign with David Falk instead of allowing DC Assault's Green to sign with their guy who was an agent (believe it was Joel Bell but could be wrong on name). After that--they were cut off from Assault players and they had some good ones for CBB--Quinn Cook, Beasley, being the top 2 they had 0 chance after getting Green, Austin Freeman and Chris Wright-who did go to Boo Williams on Nike Circuit. Also the fact JT3 insisted on the Princeton offense....set them back decades as to recruiting guards/wings who were fantastic in DC area for Team Takeover (Kris Jenkins/Phil Booth of Nova, and several others who chose Nova over Gtown like Daniel Ochefu as well)
Ewing wanted to bring in some of his own idea/guys but was told no. Still took the job out of friendship/loyalty to a mentor in Big John but it was set up to fail. Ewing was a longtime Assistant in NBA and earned stripes but the CBB he returned to needed to see Georgetown tweak how they do things and they were still operating like it was Big John in control and so many bad/lazy things taking place. He had 0 chance to succeed but took one for team due to loyalty. Got burned. That's not to say he'd have been an elite coach or gotten program back to top but I believe you never take a job if you aren't allowed to actually run the program as you believe you need to succeed.
Juwan Howard has had success at Michigan--but going through some health issues this year hasn't helped at all. But he's been best of group listed.
Think Woodson is good but don't like his guards this year. If he had last year's guards with this frontcourt--would like his team more.
For instance-John Thompson's younger son Ronny was allowed to be on payroll as Director of Basketball Operations but often on gamedays would be calling an A-10 basketball game for formerly NBC Sports Cable network which is now Peacock. So how serious is a guy about his job when he's not even with the team on gamedays?
Big John was running the program when his son took over as well and screwed that up recruiting wise with pulling a fast one against DC Assault and instead of Michael Beasley joining the '08 team to replace Jeff Green, Big John had Green sign with David Falk instead of allowing DC Assault's Green to sign with their guy who was an agent (believe it was Joel Bell but could be wrong on name). After that--they were cut off from Assault players and they had some good ones for CBB--Quinn Cook, Beasley, being the top 2 they had 0 chance after getting Green, Austin Freeman and Chris Wright-who did go to Boo Williams on Nike Circuit. Also the fact JT3 insisted on the Princeton offense....set them back decades as to recruiting guards/wings who were fantastic in DC area for Team Takeover (Kris Jenkins/Phil Booth of Nova, and several others who chose Nova over Gtown like Daniel Ochefu as well)
Ewing wanted to bring in some of his own idea/guys but was told no. Still took the job out of friendship/loyalty to a mentor in Big John but it was set up to fail. Ewing was a longtime Assistant in NBA and earned stripes but the CBB he returned to needed to see Georgetown tweak how they do things and they were still operating like it was Big John in control and so many bad/lazy things taking place. He had 0 chance to succeed but took one for team due to loyalty. Got burned. That's not to say he'd have been an elite coach or gotten program back to top but I believe you never take a job if you aren't allowed to actually run the program as you believe you need to succeed.
Juwan Howard has had success at Michigan--but going through some health issues this year hasn't helped at all. But he's been best of group listed.
Think Woodson is good but don't like his guards this year. If he had last year's guards with this frontcourt--would like his team more.
No problem-knew who you meant. Just wanted to ask to make sure you were talking about UNC too.
Beat me to it. No one could have done a better job following Rupp. Not only did Joe B Hall succeed, he made his mark on the game.
I think the difference in that list is all of them had college coaching experience prior to going to their alma mater.
Roy Williams - Kansas HC
Gary Williams - BS and Ohio State HC
Jim Boeheim - Syracuse assistant
Lon Kruger - KSU assistant and HC at TPA
Clem Haskins - WKU assistant
Mark Gottfried - UCLA assistant and Murray State HC
Anthony Grant - Alabama HC
Jerry Tarkanian - UNLV head coach
Mick Cronin - UC and UL assistant, Murray State HC
Andy Kennedy - UAB and UC assistant, Ole Miss head coach
Greg McDermott - Wayne State and NDSU head coach
The ones that seem to bomb at the highest percentage are the ones with zero college coaching experience:
Chris Mullin
Clyde Drexler
Patrick Ewing
Sidney Lowe
Eddie Jordan
Mike Woodson (TBD)
Of course there are some anomalies there, and some just don't work out for whatever reason, but overall, picking a guy with no college experience because he was a good player for you generally doesn't work out.
Simple really, just because you were a great player doesn’t mean you’re going to be a great coach.
The only who sort of pulled it off was Larry Bird, and he quit after 3 years.
The only who sort of pulled it off was Larry Bird, and he quit after 3 years.
I’ve said for years team make a mistake when hiring “within the family”.
Why?
Because in doing so they usually are not hiring one of the best, most qualified, most proven candidates.
Sure, some will work out. So would just randomly picking any D-1 coach, but the odds of success are lower than if you got the best possible.
Why?
Because in doing so they usually are not hiring one of the best, most qualified, most proven candidates.
Sure, some will work out. So would just randomly picking any D-1 coach, but the odds of success are lower than if you got the best possible.
Juwan Howard has had an up and down career at Michigan. Michigan has certainly done better in the past. This year not so hot, NIT last year. Did make an Elite 8 in 2021, Sweet 16 in 2022.
I don’t think you can look at it that way and find a common theme.
Payne is not head coach material, Ewing had zero experience, Howard has even a roller coaster etc. I don’t think it has anything to do with being Alma maters they just are what they are. It’s hard finding a great coach, and just because you hire a former player doesn’t mean that is going to make it easier. Also, many of these guys were former NBA players and lacked experience, hired on name recognition etc.
Also, we tend to highlight the ones that didn’t work out and not realize the times it does. Roy Williams for example killed it at his Alma mater. Joe Hall was great, the jury is still out on Hubert and Scheyer, but they seem to be holding their own as of today.
Payne is not head coach material, Ewing had zero experience, Howard has even a roller coaster etc. I don’t think it has anything to do with being Alma maters they just are what they are. It’s hard finding a great coach, and just because you hire a former player doesn’t mean that is going to make it easier. Also, many of these guys were former NBA players and lacked experience, hired on name recognition etc.
Also, we tend to highlight the ones that didn’t work out and not realize the times it does. Roy Williams for example killed it at his Alma mater. Joe Hall was great, the jury is still out on Hubert and Scheyer, but they seem to be holding their own as of today.
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It’s a high risk high reward situation at times. If it works out it’s great for your program legacy, great for the fans, and you won’t have to worry about them ever leaving. If they turn out great you have a Roy Williams situation.
At the same time, you also run the risk of blindly hiring someone because of their affiliation and ruining the relationship with the player - coach and program. For example, Kenny Payne won a title at Louisville and they loved him. Now, I’d say more than half of the fanbase despises the guy.
Two things for me
1. You need guys to have proven something in coaching to hire at these jobs that we are talking about. But the former great athlete and alum usually skips the step of proving themselves at lower job to display they know how to teach , buld roster, game coach, etc
So Chris Mullins or a Patrick Ewing never showed they could do this.
And being nba assistant is a far cry from college coaching
2. To be honest..most great coxches in any sport weren’t the best player Usually they were non descript players, role players that didn’t have natural talent to rely upon. To belong they had to understand how to do little things and find their success in helping but not always leading their team to win. And great players then trying to become coaches….struggle to coach a team up because they just want the player to figure it out vs teach the nuances of the game at high levels
The elite of most sports ….Saban, Kirby, Pitino, Cosch K, etc. some in nfl snd nba….they were not elite player in their day
1. You need guys to have proven something in coaching to hire at these jobs that we are talking about. But the former great athlete and alum usually skips the step of proving themselves at lower job to display they know how to teach , buld roster, game coach, etc
So Chris Mullins or a Patrick Ewing never showed they could do this.
And being nba assistant is a far cry from college coaching
2. To be honest..most great coxches in any sport weren’t the best player Usually they were non descript players, role players that didn’t have natural talent to rely upon. To belong they had to understand how to do little things and find their success in helping but not always leading their team to win. And great players then trying to become coaches….struggle to coach a team up because they just want the player to figure it out vs teach the nuances of the game at high levels
The elite of most sports ….Saban, Kirby, Pitino, Cosch K, etc. some in nfl snd nba….they were not elite player in their day
Generally speaking, I think coaching at a D1 level is pretty tough, and a lot of guys don't work out at a lot of places. The "coaching carousel" is an entire season in and of itself that exists due to all the turnover.
In modern times, I think lack of time is a big factor. It's about a 3 window for coaches to do something or they're out. That's barely enough time to build a team, let alone a program.
Also, the "he's one of us" type hires are guys who are taking over tough jobs.
UL is the perfect example of this. Brohm has had an incredible resume and pedigree for a while. Not only does he have legit HC experience, but he was an assistant, coordinator, and AHC at UL during some good times.
Kenny Payne has been an assistant for a while, but a good chunk of it was at UK under Cal during some great times. Now, I'd give Kenny some credit for those great times as he recruited and coached but he wasn't the head guy.
He probably needed a stint at G5/mid major before taking the gig to be honest.
Or he may be like Joker. Great assistant, good recruiter, good coach from a development standpoint. Didn't work out as HC. However, once again ya boy Joker is second in command of a 9-win team getting to bowls at NC St.
In modern times, I think lack of time is a big factor. It's about a 3 window for coaches to do something or they're out. That's barely enough time to build a team, let alone a program.
Also, the "he's one of us" type hires are guys who are taking over tough jobs.
UL is the perfect example of this. Brohm has had an incredible resume and pedigree for a while. Not only does he have legit HC experience, but he was an assistant, coordinator, and AHC at UL during some good times.
Kenny Payne has been an assistant for a while, but a good chunk of it was at UK under Cal during some great times. Now, I'd give Kenny some credit for those great times as he recruited and coached but he wasn't the head guy.
He probably needed a stint at G5/mid major before taking the gig to be honest.
Or he may be like Joker. Great assistant, good recruiter, good coach from a development standpoint. Didn't work out as HC. However, once again ya boy Joker is second in command of a 9-win team getting to bowls at NC St.
because you're severely limiting your talent pool. But people have nostalgic hearts. That has to be the reason I see mark popes name thrown around so much. A few years ago it was ford and Pelphrey. Can you imagine if we hired these guys just to keep in the family?
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