This scene reminds me a lot about those who think Rupp didn't try hard enough to integrate

[Estil]

I know this may sound a bit strange, but this scene reminded me a lot about those who think Rupp didn't do enough to integrate our team. That is, it might go down like so:

Look, you want to integrate, we want us to integrate, we all know it'll greatly improve our title chances, so why don't you?
Rupp: Change always comes slow. After all, I had a black starter on my HS team back in the day, I've scheduled integrated opponents since the early 50s(?), formally gave scholarship offers as far back as 1964, and the university itself has been integrated since 1948...
You want to integrate the team, so why don't you just do so?
Rupp: (flashes back to when black players turned him down after warning them and their families what they'd be facing just like Branch Rickey did regarding Jackie Robinson, being pressured by some of his superiors at UK to have a "token black" on the bench just so UK "looks good", the three times UK went to the tournament in place of other teams who refused NCAA invites because they didn't want to play against integrated opponents)
You can't integrate the team, can you? Even though you very much want to, it's not you, it's the system. The system won't let you. What's the point? What's the point of being this "Baron of the Bluegrass"? You're powerless!

I know this may seem like a bit of an odd way of making my point but that's precisely what Rupp's critics fail to realize. Just like how the supposed "most powerful man in the free world" can't do nearly as much as people think, Rupp also could not do nearly as much regarding integration as some people think (if anything I very much respect the man for the efforts he did make and that he in no way did so to try to make himself "look good"). Let's not forget that both he and Walter Cronkite (you know the guys who are often considered the standard by which all other coaches/journalists are measured against?) ten years later retired when they turned 70...and it was not by choice.

And one thing I think people on both sides don't even consider is that the real reason the rest of the SEC wouldn't integrate was not necessarily just about racism but that they didn't want UK to become even more of an Evil Empire than it already was.

 

[Rush2112 UK]

Rupp was a legendary coach, but he failed to live up to his promise when it came to becoming a great civil rights leader.

Shakespeare wrote some fine plays, but there's little evidence he contributed to the advances in science that have led to better health & lifestyles worldwide.

The Wright Brothers may have created the first successful airplane, but they didn't do their part in the labor reform movements of their day.

Beethoven wrote nine amazing symphonies, but even though he was so afflicted he did little to champion deaf awareness.

And so on.

 

[.S&C.]

I just love all the geniuses that try and apply todays set of standards on ANYONE of that time.It's nothing but self serving bullish*t, and half of these types that do it wouldn't have lived up to it then either. It's just ignorance, and a lack of understanding civilizations and societies in time. Most people that do it conjure it up because it's politically beneficial anyway, they don't actually believe half of the crap they're saying .

Rupp was a product of the time just like all the other coaches, and there's plenty of evidence to support he actually tried to break some barriers. Because his name is Adolph, he's the coach of a southern state, and 1966 was a great story line for certain social and political types, it all gets misconstrued.

And it's purposely done for a reason.

 

[Cat78Scot]

Rupp was a legendary coach, but he failed to live up to his promise when it came to becoming a great civil rights leader.

Shakespeare wrote some fine plays, but there's little evidence he contributed to the advances in science that have led to better health & lifestyles worldwide.

The Wright Brothers may have created the first successful airplane, but they didn't do their part in the labor reform movements of their day.

Beethoven wrote nine amazing symphonies, but even though he was so afflicted he did little to champion deaf awareness.

And so on.

So you think he should have taken black players into the deep south and risk their safety and lives just so he could be looked upon as a great civil rights leader? I question whether he would have been looked upon that way anyway had he done that.

People see what they want to see, believe what they want to believe. They would have pinned him with a 'win at all costs' coach that cared nothing about the black players he recruited if he had been the first in the SEC to integrate. At best. At worst, he would be seen as an accessory to murder.

 

[.S&C.]

So you think he should have taken black players into the deep south and risk their safety and lives just so he could be looked upon as a great civil rights leader? I question whether he would have been looked upon that way anyway had he done that.

People see what they want to see, believe what they want to believe. They would have pinned him with a 'win at all costs' coach that cared nothing about the black players he recruited if he had been the first in the SEC to integrate. At best. At worst, he would be seen as an accessory to murder.

exactly. Imagine taking black players into Oxford or Starkville mississippi in 1955-1965.....accessory to murder is exactly right.

Only an idiot would apply todays standards on people of that time. But this country is full of self serving idiots today so.....there ya have it.

 

[CloverforkCat]

He honestly thought that he was going to get Butch Beard from Breckenridge County, and also Jim Rose from Hazard. Someone scared both young men away from UK, to Louisville and Western Ky.
Considering several state universities WKU, UofL, EKU, Morehead, Murray State integrated years before UK, does not put Rupp into a good light.

 

[.S&C.]

He honestly thought that he was going to get Butch Beard from Breckenridge County, and also Jim Rose from Hazard. Someone scared both young men away from UK, to Louisville and Western Ky.
Considering several state universities WKU, UofL, EKU, Morehead, Murray State integrated years before UK, does not put Rupp into a good light.

none of those teams were in the SEC. What part of that is hard for people. You just made a broad statement that Jon Scott could blast apart in 5 sentences.

what the hell

Unless you're meaning thats another reason for the confusion, not that you actually believe it.

 

[Ugoff]

I just love all the geniuses that try and apply todays set of standards on ANYONE of that time.It's nothing but self serving bullish*t, and half of these types that do it wouldn't have lived up to it then either. It's just ignorance, and a lack of understanding civilizations in time. Most people that do it conjure it up because it's politically beneficial anyway, they don't actually believe half of the crap they're saying .

Rupp was a product of the time just like all the other coaches, and there's plenty of evidence to support he actually tried to break some barriers. Because his name is Adolph, he's the coach of a southern state, and 1966 was a great story line for certain social and political types, it all gets misconstrued.

And it's purposely done for a reason.

Totally agree with this. Some like to judge others through the prism of history. I wish those people could walk a mile in the shoes of those they are so critical of. Rewriting history to suit an agenda is a favorite pastime for some.

 

[kats23]

exactly. Imagine taking black players into Oxford or Starkville mississippi in 1955-1965.....accessory to murder is exactly right.

Only an idiot would apply todays standards on people of that time. But this country is full of self serving idiots today so.....there ya have it.

The other question you can ask too is would they even be allowed to play on the floor if they were able to secure the floor. Lot of segregation laws in the South Back then. I could easily see a school or even a town pulling a stunt like that.

 

[Rush2112 UK]

Whoosh.

 

[ZenCatFan73]

This thread won't go well.

 

[MegaBlue05]

Rupp's labeling as a racist is unfair. The south was slow to integrate, in not only the SEC but most conferences with any sort of southern affiliation. (I kind of wish Duke beat us in 1966 so they could be the villain.)

Rupp was a product of his time, which in hindsight produced a lot of ignorant people, especially in the south. But you can't judge history through the lens of the present.

 

[Estil]

I forgot to mention that as much as Jackie endured and how what he had to go through really, really sucked balls...keep in mind that when he became the first black MLB player of the 20th century, he was 28 years old, had been an Army officer, AND even had his own "Rosa Parks moment" as well (look it up). Hence why Rickey thought he was the most qualified to make this historic leap even though I think there were one or more players who were better on the field.

The recruits that had Rupp had hoped would come to UK meanwhile, would have had to endured far worse bigotry, and they were just 18-19 years old...just barely adults. As if transitioning to being a "big fish" on your HS team to being a small fish on the best college basketball team in the land (then and now) wasn't hard and stressful enough.

 

[Ripcord65]

Rupp tried every way in the world to get Wes Unseld to come to U.K. when he graduated from Seneca H.S. in 1964. Same with Butch Beard in 1965. They just wouldn't come to U.K. And, of course, because of the racial situation in the SEC cities and states at the time, who could blame them.

 

[Cat78Scot]

Whoosh.

Is that a rebuttal or an argument to back up your false assumptions?

 

[Estil]

They would have pinned him with a 'win at all costs' coach that cared nothing about the black players he recruited if he had been the first in the SEC to integrate.

The fact that he was a "win at all costs" sort of coach is precisely why he would not even hear of this "token black on the bench" idea. He had spent over 30 years by this point creating the best college basketball team in the land and he did it by settling for nothing less than the best recruits and settling for nothing less than their very best effort in every game. Rupp was following Branch Rickey's example and you sure didn't see Branch just plucking out some token black player out of the Negro Leagues. In both cases they knew it would not be fair to anyone concerned if they didn't try to find the best player they could just like they would any other recruit.

 

[Estil]

Rupp tried every way in the world to get Wes Unseld to come to U.K. when he graduated from Seneca H.S. in 1964. Same with Butch Beard in 1965. They just wouldn't come to U.K. And, of course, because of the racial situation in the SEC cities and states at the time, who could blame them.

I think that was the first of what, ten formal scholarship offers he gave to black players before Tom Payne joined us in 1971? Keep in mind of course this doesn't even count informal "off the record" offers.

 

[FlCATFan]

We should also remember that during the time frame referenced it would have been difficult if not impossible to find hotel accommodations for a racially mixed team on many road trips.

 

[Estil]

He honestly thought that he was going to get Butch Beard from Breckenridge County, and also Jim Rose from Hazard. Someone scared both young men away from UK, to Louisville and Western Ky.
Considering several state universities WKU, UofL, EKU, Morehead, Murray State integrated years before UK, does not put Rupp into a good light.

Woah woah wait a second, are you talking about the university itself integrating or their basketball team being integrated? Because those are two totally different things.

 

[Cat78Scot]

The fact that he was a "win at all costs" sort of coach is precisely why he would not even hear of this "token black on the bench" idea. He had spent over 30 years by this point creating the best college basketball team in the land and he did it by settling for nothing less than the best recruits and settling for nothing less than their very best effort in every game. Rupp was following Branch Rickey's example and you sure didn't see Branch just plucking out some token black player out of the Negro Leagues. In both cases they knew it would not be fair to anyone concerned if they didn't try to find the best player they could just like they would any other recruit.

Exactly. Which should reinforce that he would have recruited the best players regardless of any factor including race. He had, as others have already noted, coached black players when coaching high school.

This should demonstrate that the only possible reason for him not to sign black players, and in most early instances black players not signing for UK, was both his and the recruit's family concern for their safety. Seems pretty, ahem, black and white to me...

 

[Bkocats]

Is that a rebuttal or an argument to back up your false assumptions?

I think it's because you didn't recognize the sarcasm
Read his whole post - he really was being sarcastic

 

[Estil]

You might say he followed John Wooden's (?) example of not letting what you can't do stop you from what you can do. The best example of this is how even if the system/rest of the SEC wouldn't let him integrate his team, they couldn't stop him from recruiting the best interconference opponents he could (which just so happened include some integrated teams of course). After all you can't be the best without beating the best right?

 

[Cat78Scot]

I think it's because you didn't recognize the sarcasm
Read his whole post - he really was being sarcastic

Whoosh is right!! My apologies! lol

I seriously didn't even read the rest of the post after that first sentence. I just jumped all over it! At least it gets the facts out there eh?

My apologies Rush2112, believe me, I'm well versed in the sarcastic ways. I've just come across so many UK fans that believe the prevailing national narrative on Rupp without actually investigating, it kind of gets my goat!

 

[.S&C.]

none of those teams were in the SEC. What part of that is hard for people. You just made a broad statement that Jon Scott could blast apart in 5 sentences.

what the hell

Unless you're meaning thats another reason for the confusion, not that you actually believe it.

thanks to the mod who did that.

 

[clevenger32]

All you young people talk about Mississippi and Louisiana...Lexington was segregated. Unseld could not eat at the same restaurant as his Seneca teammates at the state tournament.

I was a student at UK in the 1975-76 season and the first time UK had 5 black on the floor at the same time and the season ticket holders headed for the exits.

While I think Coach Rupp wanted to integrate, things were milder in Kentucky than Mississippi by it was far from embracing.

 

[CloverforkCat]

Woah woah wait a second, are you talking about the university itself integrating or their basketball team being integrated? Because those are two totally different things.

The Basketball team of course, the university integrated in 1948-49 !

 

[Longtrip]

Rupp was a legendary coach, but he failed to live up to his promise when it came to becoming a great civil rights leader.

Shakespeare wrote some fine plays, but there's little evidence he contributed to the advances in science that have led to better health & lifestyles worldwide.

The Wright Brothers may have created the first successful airplane, but they didn't do their part in the labor reform movements of their day.

Beethoven wrote nine amazing symphonies, but even though he was so afflicted he did little to champion deaf awareness.

And so on.

Rupp was a great coach and a decent human being. It was not within his powers to be a great civil rights leader. He left that for others such as the the great MLK.

 

[crestcat]

I forgot to mention that as much as Jackie endured and how what he had to go through really, really sucked balls...keep in mind that when he became the first black MLB player of the 20th century, he was 28 years old, had been an Army officer, AND even had his own "Rosa Parks moment" as well (look it up). Hence why Rickey thought he was the most qualified to make this historic leap even though I think there were one or more players who were better on the field.

The recruits that had Rupp had hoped would come to UK meanwhile, would have had to endured far worse bigotry, and they were just 18-19 years old...just barely adults. As if transitioning to being a "big fish" on your HS team to being a small fish on the best college basketball team in the land (then and now) wasn't hard and stressful enough.

Also, St. Louis was the southernmost city in MLB

 

[Poetax]

He honestly thought that he was going to get Butch Beard from Breckenridge County, and also Jim Rose from Hazard. Someone scared both young men away from UK, to Louisville and Western Ky.
Considering several state universities WKU, UofL, EKU, Morehead, Murray State integrated years before UK, does not put Rupp into a good light.

Before being at Kentucky, Rupp coached several teams with black basketball players on it.

 

[Cat78Scot]

All you young people talk about Mississippi and Louisiana...Lexington was segregated. Unseld could not eat at the same restaurant as his Seneca teammates at the state tournament.

I was a student at UK in the 1975-76 season and the first time UK had 5 black on the floor at the same time and the season ticket holders headed for the exits.

While I think Coach Rupp wanted to integrate, things were milder in Kentucky than Mississippi by it was far from embracing.

Interesting. I like getting all the facts and I appreciate you providing your personal experience. I think that was definitely a sign of the times even in Kentucky and I would guess that UofL was adopted more by black people as their school at that time. So I can see how the initial divide could hinge on race ratcheted up by competition (or lack thereof).

Coming from Glasgow, Scotland we had a similar division that I grew up with that ran down religious lines. Look up the Old FIrm rivalry if you want to see UofK vs. UL times a thousand! 900 years of religious hatred and conflict. Pretty damn scary.

 

[Wildcat Country]

Rupp was a legendary coach, but he failed to live up to his promise when it came to becoming a great civil rights leader.

Shakespeare wrote some fine plays, but there's little evidence he contributed to the advances in science that have led to better health & lifestyles worldwide.

The Wright Brothers may have created the first successful airplane, but they didn't do their part in the labor reform movements of their day.

Beethoven wrote nine amazing symphonies, but even though he was so afflicted he did little to champion deaf awareness.

And so on.

Rush2112, You my friend are a fool. Full NEVER made any such promise or pretence. Get your facts straight. Smells like an agenda to me.

 

[JPScott]

I was a student at UK in the 1975-76 season and the first time UK had 5 black on the floor at the same time and the season ticket holders headed for the exits.

Do you happen to remember what game that was?

Someone just asked me yesterday when the first time five black players played together on the court at the same time for UK.

I believe the first time five black players started for UK was 23-FEB-1979 vs. Vanderbilt for senior day. But I don't know the answer as to when it first happened at any point during a game.

 

[Rush2112 UK]

Rush2112, You my friend are a fool. Full NEVER made any such promise or pretence. Get your facts straight. Smells like an agenda to me.

Whoosh 2.0

 

[Bkocats]

Whoosh 2.0

Yeah - thought it was obvious, myself

 

[Cat78Scot]

Yeah - thought it was obvious, myself

Especially when you read past the first sentence!

 

[2Adulterers]

Rupp tried every way in the world to get Wes Unseld to come to U.K. when he graduated from Seneca H.S. in 1964. Same with Butch Beard in 1965. They just wouldn't come to U.K. And, of course, because of the racial situation in the SEC cities and states at the time, who could blame them.

nailed it..

 

[clevenger32]

Do you happen to remember what game that was?

Someone just asked me yesterday when the first time five black players played together on the court at the same time for UK.

I believe the first time five black players started for UK was 23-FEB-1979 vs. Vanderbilt for senior day. But I don't know the answer as to when it first happened at any point during a game.

I want to say it was the Florida game but that might not be right. I was at every home game that year...I was 22 then...that was 40 years ago....I do remember that Marion Haskins came in as a substitute and that made it five blacks...I know it was not a full house because that team was struggling till they caught fire at the end and went to the NIT. I do remember how noticeable it was that the chair backs started leaving.

 

[ukalum]

All you young people talk about Mississippi and Louisiana...Lexington was segregated. Unseld could not eat at the same restaurant as his Seneca teammates at the state tournament.

I was a student at UK in the 1975-76 season and the first time UK had 5 black on the floor at the same time and the season ticket holders headed for the exits.

While I think Coach Rupp wanted to integrate, things were milder in Kentucky than Mississippi by it was far from embracing.

People forget, and the youngsters don't know; but Kentucky was just as segregated as any deep south state at the time.

 

[crestcat]

People forget, and the youngsters don't know; but Kentucky was just as segregated as any deep south state at the time.

That is why Rupp should be congratulated for playing home games against integrated teams and making sure they were accommodated

 

[2Adulterers]

Coach Rupp did all he could to sign blacks.He refused to have a token player..I respect that..