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The Vandy "trick play"------using a substitution to deceive, and I believe that it was a mass

jauk11

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(Long, only need to read the first three paragraphs) substitution even though it was after a timeout. Any use of a substitution to deceive was clearly banned in high school decades ago, and this looks like it was in the NCAA also, from an NCAA rules update in 2009.

Another long post by this rules expert about players not being able to use a "non football" act to deceive, ie the Q withdrawing from center and going laterally toward his sideline asking for instructions when the ball is snapped to another back and he goes downfield for a long pass, it says using a reverse or similar deception is a "football act" but this isn't.

Long, but you only have to read this part, the rest are just examples of unfair tactics, and most are not as bad as the mass substitution used to deceive that occurred in the Vandy play IMO. Here is the basis of my protest, in the first paragraph, with the b. part being the relevant part::

"From the 2009 NCAA Football Rule Book:

Unfair Tactics Rule 9-2-2
ARTICLE 2. a. No player shall conceal the ball in or beneath his clothing or equipment or substitute any other article for the ball.
b. No simulated replacements or substitutions may be used to confuse opponents. No tactic associated with substitutes or the substitution process may be used to confuse opponents (Rule 3-5-2-e) (A.R. 9-2-2-IVII).
c. No equipment may be used to confuse opponents (Rule 1-4-2-e).
PENALTY [a-c] 15 yards from the previous spot [S27]. Flagrant offenders shall be disqualified"




Most of the article is below, but the above is the really relevant part buried in it, the rest is long and just gives examples.


"MEMORANDUM
November 13, 2009
TO: Divisions I, II and III Supervisors of Football Officials,
Conference Commissioners and Head Football Coaches.
FROM: Rogers Redding, secretary-rules editor
NCAA Football Rules Committee.
SUBJECT: NCAA Football Clarification and Play Situations Bulletin No. 3.

Enclosed with this memorandum are the third set of play situations for the 2009
season. The committee hopes these examples assist in the understanding of
NCAA Football rules. Each play includes the ruling and a rule reference to assist...

2. Second and 10 at the A-45. Quarterback A12 is in a “shotgun” formation. All players are
stopped for a full second when A12 turns (no false start) and begins to trot toward his
sideline in apparent confusion about what play is to be called or whether the coach wants to
request a timeout. He is moving parallel to his end line and is almost to his sideline when the
ball is snapped to A45 who is five yards behind the snapper. A45 then completes a forward
pass to A12 for a long gain.
RULING: Unsportsmanlike conduct for an unfair act to deceive the opponents. The referee
may impose any penalty he deems reasonable. In this case the penalty is for a live-ball foul,
15 yards at the previous spot and the down is repeated. Second and 25 at the A-30. (9-2-3-c)"


From the 2009 NCAA Football Rule Book:

Unfair Tactics Rule 9-2-2
ARTICLE 2. a. No player shall conceal the ball in or beneath his clothing or equipment or substitute any other article for the ball.
b. No simulated replacements or substitutions may be used to confuse opponents. No tactic associated with substitutes or the substitution process may be used to confuse opponents (Rule 3-5-2-e) (A.R. 9-2-2-IVII).
c. No equipment may be used to confuse opponents (Rule 1-4-2-e).
PENALTY [a-c] 15 yards from the previous spot [S27]. Flagrant offenders shall be disqualified

EXAMPLES of Unfair tactics: Unfair Tactics—ARTICLE 2

Approved Ruling 9-2-2
I. After the ball is ready for play, Team A goes into a formation with two players split wide on both sides of the snapper and two other Team A linemen adjacent to the snapper. No more than four players are legally in the backfield. Team A sends in two substitutes, who take positions on the line of scrimmage adjacent to the two split offensive linemen on the opposite side of the field of play from their team bench. This leaves Team A with nine players on the line of scrimmage and four backfield players all legally in position. Immediately and before the snap, two Team A linemen nearest their team’s bench leave the field of play and are off at the snap. Seven players are on the line of scrimmage, five of whom are Team A linemen numbered 50 to 79. RULING: Penalty—15 yards from the previous spot. This is a simulated replacement of a player to confuse the opponents.

II. On fourth down at Team B’s 12-yard line, A1 enters the field of play with a kicking shoe while his 11 teammates are in the huddle. A1 kneels and measures the distance from the neutral zone to the kicking spot. While his teammates are leaving the huddle, A1 leaves the field
of play with the shoe. Team A quickly runs a play from scrimmage. RULING: Team A foul. Penalty—15 yards from the previous spot. There shall be no simulated replacement of a player to confuse the opponents, and a player who communicates must remain in the game for one down.

III. A1 leaves the field of play during a down. Team A huddles with 10 players. Substitute A12 enters, and A2 simulates leaving the field but sets near the sideline for a “hide-out’’ pass. RULING: Penalty—15 yards from the previous spot. This is a simulated replacement of a player to confuse opponents.

IV. Between scrimmage downs, one or more Team B substitutes enter the field of play. Before the snap for the next down, more than 11 Team B players intentionally stay on the field of play as long as possible (more than three seconds) to disguise the defensive personnel, the type of defense and the pass coverage. RULING: Dead-ball foul on Team B, illegal substitution. Penalty—Five yards from the succeeding spot (Rule 3-5-2-c).

V. While a team is legally set to attempt a field goal, the potential holder for the kick goes toward his team area asking for a shoe. A shoe is thrown on the field and the player, in motion toward his team area, turns toward the goal line. The ball is snapped to the player in the
kicking position, who throws a pass to the player who had turned up field after asking for a shoe. RULING: Penalty—15 yards from the previous spot.

VI. Team A, with 12 players in the vicinity of the huddle (within 10 yards), breaks the huddle and two players start toward the sideline and Team A’s bench. RULING: Dead-ball foul. Penalty—Five yards from the succeeding spot.

VII. Team A is lined up in scrimmage kick formation and has been set for one second. One of the offensive backs shouts to and motions to A40, the blocker on the right wing, to get off the field. At the snap, A40 is in legal motion toward his sideline. A40 turns downfield and
becomes a pass receiver. RULING: Penalty—15 yards from the previous spot. This is a tactic associated with the substitution process to deceive opponents.
 
I'm embarrassed that we complain about getting tricked. We got our asses kicked. No more excuses.
 
The DC was in the booth..what is he paid to do!!!!!
He was so bored by UK football He couldn't stay awake.
sleeping-on-the-job.jpg
 
But there was no SUBSTITUTION involved. All 11 players were inside the numbers and while 10 of them went to line up on the ball, one of the others went toward the sideline.

If someone had come from the sideline to replace one of the initial 11 who were on the field it could've been ruled deception.
 
He did step out of bounds on his first step after the snap. He shouldn't have been allowed to touch the ball.
 
It is obvious that these co-ordinators are not ready to coach in the SEC. It is Dawson's first rodeo in big-boy football and Elliott is just a puppet for Stoops micro-managing the defense. Otherwise, why did a trick play like this work. Stoops reminds me of Billy G not ready to be a head coach in the SEC.I look for Dawson to move on after the season because their rumors that Stoops hasw ijnterfered with Dawson's play calling.
 
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Still someone should count and out of 12 coaches one should have seen it.

Interesting that back in the John L days UL lost a game to So Miss on a similar concept play that is now not legal. In that game So Miss had a 4th down and when the offense left the field and the punt team ran on the field one wr stopped 1 foot from the sideline with his back to the field. They even had a coach yelling at him. When the punt team minus 1 ran on the field they snapped the ball and the coach told him to go. That version is now against the ruled because a player has to report to the huddle on the sideline or field.
 
Interesting that back in the John L days UL lost a game to So Miss on a similar concept play that is now not legal. In that game So Miss had a 4th down and when the offense left the field and the punt team ran on the field one wr stopped 1 foot from the sideline with his back to the field. They even had a coach yelling at him. When the punt team minus 1 ran on the field they snapped the ball and the coach told him to go. That version is now against the ruled because a player has to report to the huddle on the sideline or field.
Actually the player only has to be inside the numbers during ready for play.

Dave
 
This isn't close - they had 11 guys on the field from the start and they all ran inside the numbers - once you run 11 inside the numbers and keep those 11 on the field it's not a "sub".

Totally legal play and just a defensive bust.
 
Coaches bear plenty of blame of the game, but this isnt one. DB's are taught from grade school on to check for players outside the numbers. Young players just fell asleep and it cost us dearly.
 
It is obvious that these co-ordinators are not ready to coach in the SEC. It is Dawson's first rodeo in big-boy football and Elliott is just a puppet for Stoops micro-managing the defense. Otherwise, why did a trick play like this work. Stoops reminds me of Billy G not ready to be a head coach in the SEC.I look for Dawson to move on after the season because their rumors that Stoops hasw ijnterfered with Dawson's play calling.
OK, I'm trying to translate and will report to the board when the code breakers complete their report.
 
OP trying to make excuses again for the coaches. It was a legal play, and our coaches were too blind to see it.
 
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It is obvious that these co-ordinators are not ready to coach in the SEC. It is Dawson's first rodeo in big-boy football and Elliott is just a puppet for Stoops micro-managing the defense. Otherwise, why did a trick play like this work. Stoops reminds me of Billy G not ready to be a head coach in the SEC.I look for Dawson to move on after the season because their rumors that Stoops hasw ijnterfered with Dawson's play calling.
Just me, but I think it was the same with NB
 
"b. No simulated replacements or substitutions may be used to cIonfuse opponents. No tactic associated with substitutes or the substitution process may be used to confuse opponents (Rule 3-5-2-e) (A.R. 9-2-2-IVII)."

Sounds like pretty strong language to me, and to me the intent is clear. I forget when the rule and emphasis came out in high school, several decades ago, but I can tell you that the emphasis on calling anything close to this was very strong.
 
We kicked our own ass. That's not an excuse. That's the truth.

I agree with that, but the D played as well as anyone could have expected, they scored three times, on a fumble recovery inside our five yard line, a trick play that I still don't agree with, and an interception returned for a TD.

Often overlooked by everyone jumping on the "Farr everyone" bandwagon.
 
I agree with that, but the D played as well as anyone could have expected, they scored three times, on a fumble recovery inside our five yard line, a trick play that I still don't agree with, and an interception returned for a TD.

Often overlooked by everyone jumping on the "Farr everyone" bandwagon.

I don't think there is any doubt the play was designed to deceive the defense, but Vandy took advantage of the rulebook, him running on the field inside the numbers meets the requirement for being part of the huddle, which then puts the responsiblity on the defense to make sure he isn't left uncovered. Trick play meant to deceive the defense, without question, but one the wording in the rulebook allows. My question about it was he a legal receiver, like some others I thought he might have stepped out of bounds and not sure if he could catch the ball legally or not.
 
"b. No simulated replacements or substitutions may be used to cIonfuse opponents. No tactic associated with substitutes or the substitution process may be used to confuse opponents (Rule 3-5-2-e) (A.R. 9-2-2-IVII)."

Sounds like pretty strong language to me, and to me the intent is clear. I forget when the rule and emphasis came out in high school, several decades ago, but I can tell you that the emphasis on calling anything close to this was very strong.

They ran a team of 11 onto the field from a timeout - that's nowhere close to a simulated substitution. They put their offense on the field as a unit and those 11 stayed there. Play completely legit and always will be.
 
They ran a team of 11 onto the field from a timeout - that's nowhere close to a simulated substitution. They put their offense on the field as a unit and those 11 stayed there. Play completely legit and always will be.

I think you could argue that the receiver was simulating a substitution by running towards the sideline. Of course, I think it would be hard to interpret it that way, but I think some could.
 
This isn't close - they had 11 guys on the field from the start and they all ran inside the numbers - once you run 11 inside the numbers and keep those 11 on the field it's not a "sub".

Totally legal play and just a defensive bust.

"Inside the numbers" is the key. Had he just stopped three feet in bounds it is not a legal play.
 
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