Selective Reasoning and player development

[UKBrassowTipIN]

Interesting thing here that no one ever talks about.

People always give Cal hell with oh you get one and dones and can't win or who couldn't win with that, they would go pro anyway. But it actually comes down to player development and him getting freshman to play at a high level quickly.

My point is why don't ppl act as unimpressed when Roy Williams hoards talent. The stats: for the junior and senior classes this year every top 15 recruit from those classes is in the NBA...EVERY ONE except 4. UNC has THREE of them. It's not like Roy knows how to recruit guys that are going to stick around...its player development. He hoards his players and they don't play on the level of everyone else's until they are upperclassmen.

So all these other years when they don't win it...why don't people say Roy can't coach he has top 15-20 players all through his roster and can't win

 

[truebluewildcat]

Interesting thing here that no one ever talks about.

People always give Cal hell with oh you get one and dones and can't win or who couldn't win with that, they would go pro anyway. But it actually comes down to player development and him getting freshman to play at a high level quickly.

My point is why don't ppl act as unimpressed when Roy Williams hoards talent. The stats: for the junior and senior classes this year every top 15 recruit from those classes is in the NBA...EVERY ONE except 4. UNC has THREE of them. It's not like Roy knows how to recruit guys that are going to stick around...its player development. He hoards his players and they don't play on the level of everyone else's until they are upperclassmen.

So all these other years when they don't win it...why don't people say Roy can't coach he has top 15-20 players all through his roster and can't win

Ole Daggum Roy and K don't get the same heat for not winning every year with the best talent, because they don't get the talent on the same scale as Cal. K had a good haul a couple years ago with Okafor and crew, but even then that wasn't the most talented group of frosh or team overall as we had one of the best and deepest the game has seen.

They don't make the rounds on Fox News and MSNBC, they don't come up with the slogans like "Succeed and Proceed". I don't know that they have ever talked about a draft night being one of the biggest things to happen in program history. To my knowledge, neither one has ever "Platooned" with the second group of 5 being talented enough to start anywhere and make it to the final 4.

Also, K has 5 titles and Roy now has 3. The old rule of 1 is behind some of the criticism as well. Anybody can stumble across 1. Jim Boehiem with Melo, Trent Dilfer with that defense, Cubs once a century, etc.

Cowherd had the best take on it i've heard. He said something like "the OAD is Cal's brand...Jim Boehiem is known for the zone...Cal is known for the OADs...". I know folks don't like Cowherd, but that's one of the best takes I've heard. He wasn't knocking Cal, actually was taking up for him and said Cal will be fine he's doing a good job.

Cal may not have invented the OAD, but he has played the game in terms of hauling talent and getting kids drafted better than anyone. With that comes a certain expectation.

I don't think anyone thought Cal could, should, or would make it to the final 4 every year, let alone win it all, but I do think everyone thought there would have been at least 1 maybe 2 more trips.

Hindsight also works against Cal. Specifically with two teams. People see Wall, Boogie, Bledsoe, even Pat Paterson as well as the "Platoon" squad (obviously) and wonder how in the heck those teams were not able to bring home titles. If he wins it all with one of those crews I think the heat is less intense.

 

[BostonCat2001]

folks are fooling themselves with all the unc talk the past few days. that team is full of 5 and 4 star players, former mcdonalds all-americans. but they never developed and never did the NBA actually want them. people say BAM should come back because he is currently slotted 25-30. meeks was at best an late 2nd round pick. if meeks was ever considered a 1st round pick...he would have been gone.

keep in mind all the while unc tried to recruit higher rated guys, they recruited BAM and smith, others. they didnt get them...why...because the guys currently on the team never developed in pros.

 

[UKBrassowTipIN]

Ole Daggum Roy and K don't get the same heat for not winning every year with the best talent, because they don't get the talent on the same scale as Cal. K had a good haul a couple years ago with Okafor and crew, but even then that wasn't the most talented group of frosh or team overall as we had one of the best and deepest the game has seen.

They don't make the rounds on Fox News and MSNBC, they don't come up with the slogans like "Succeed and Proceed". I don't know that they have ever talked about a draft night being one of the biggest things to happen in program history. To my knowledge, neither one has ever "Platooned" with the second group of 5 being talented enough to start anywhere and make it to the final 4.

Also, K has 5 titles and Roy now has 3. The old rule of 1 is behind some of the criticism as well. Anybody can stumble across 1. Jim Boehiem with Melo, Trent Dilfer with that defense, Cubs once a century, etc.

Cowherd had the best take on it i've heard. He said something like "the OAD is Cal's brand...Jim Boehiem is known for the zone...Cal is known for the OADs...". I know folks don't like Cowherd, but that's one of the best takes I've heard. He wasn't knocking Cal, actually was taking up for him and said Cal will be fine he's doing a good job.

Cal may not have invented the OAD, but he has played the game in terms of hauling talent and getting kids drafted better than anyone. With that comes a certain expectation.

I don't think anyone thought Cal could, should, or would make it to the final 4 every year, let alone win it all, but I do think everyone thought there would have been at least 1 maybe 2 more trips.

Hindsight also works against Cal. Specifically with two teams. People see Wall, Boogie, Bledsoe, even Pat Paterson as well as the "Platoon" squad (obviously) and wonder how in the heck those teams were not able to bring home titles. If he wins it all with one of those crews I think the heat is less intense.

Yeah, and that my point too. For instance Dean Smith should get the same criticism, unjustly. People could easily say...oh he coached 40 plus years and only has 2 championships and he had more all Americans than anyone combined, and the two he won were by a Michael Jordan buzzer beater and a Chris Webber timeout...nit to mention he had MJ for two more years and couldn't win another. It's a selective bias...that I think many of our own fans don't understand how much of a job this guy is really doing.

 

[spotter34]

There is no heat on Cal. Sure there are some that moan and groan but I'd argue that Cal is as safe in his position as K, Self, or Roy are in there's, maybe even more so.

Someone mentioned the 2010 and 2015 teams and how we didn't win a championship with that much talent. Well as talented as those two specific teams were they each had their own weaknesses which were discussed ad nauseam on this site.

2010 - Outside shooting. That team wasn't close to being as bad as they shot against West Virginia but it was a known weakness that was masked by our interior play and Wall's and Bledsoe's speed and athleticism. We ran into a good defensive team that packed everything in and dared us to shoot from outside and our youth took the dare. It didn't help that the poor shooting WVU team was red hot.

2015 - Defending the 3 spot. That was just about the only weakness that team had but we usually beat teams bad enough that it didn't matter. Lyles and Poythress played this spot in the platoon system and did okay most of the season but we all knew it could bite us if we faced Wisconsin with Dekker. That was the one team that had the personell to give us trouble, particularly if we weren't playing well. Not to mention they had the revenge factor also and a lot of experience.

We haven't had any favors done for us in the tourney since Cal has been here and that helps. I don't think Cal will be fully appreciated until years after he retires.

 

[BigKari]

People forget that Memphis and Massachusetts were dogshit programs before Cal took over. He took both programs to a final 4 and Rose was the only OAD from those two teams.

People probably think UK would fall off if the rule changed to 2 or 3 years. We know better, we've seen what Cal did in 2012 and 2015 when he had roster continuity. If the OAD rule changed, UK would be a threat to go undefeated almost every season. Cal would win 4 in 10 years. Theres a reason he is one of the most vocal coaches when it comes to changing the rule. It would benefit him greatly because he would still get alot of the top available talent.