Rules question

[Comebakatz3]

So, last night an Alabama softball player hit a home run. After she crossed home l the umpire handed the catcher a new ball. Not long after it comes to the hitters attention that she didn't touch home and she went back. The catcher tagged her before she touched home and the umpire called her out. I fully understand the rule says she's out, but it doesn't really make sense to me. Being able to be tagged out by a new ball is somewhat nonsensical. Thoughts?

 

[sluggercatfan]

So, last night an Alabama softball player hit a home run. After she crossed home l the umpire handed the catcher a new ball. Not long after it comes to the hitters attention that she didn't touch home and she went back. The catcher tagged her before she touched home and the umpire called her out. I fully understand the rule says she's out, but it doesn't really make sense to me. Being able to be tagged out by a new ball is somewhat nonsensical. Thoughts?

You'd have to ask an umpire...are there different rules for softball and baseball? Texted by nephew who umps small college and hs baseball...will let you know what he says.

 

[Black Diamond Cat]

So, last night an Alabama softball player hit a home run. After she crossed home l the umpire handed the catcher a new ball. Not long after it comes to the hitters attention that she didn't touch home and she went back. The catcher tagged her before she touched home and the umpire called her out. I fully understand the rule says she's out, but it doesn't really make sense to me. Being able to be tagged out by a new ball is somewhat nonsensical. Thoughts?

I thought there was a limited time frame to tag out the runner.

 

[Comebakatz3]

I thought there was a limited time frame to tag out the runner.

Not sure. I just think it's strange that you can tag out a runner with a ball that was not put into play. Seems to me that if the ball is a home run that there should be no way to tag out the runner.

 

[sluggercatfan]

Not sure. I just think it's strange that you can tag out a runner with a ball that was not put into play. Seems to me that if the ball is a home run that there should be no way to tag out the runner.

My nephew says she's out..

 

[Comebakatz3]

My nephew says she's out..

Yea, she was out in the game. I just find it odd that you can be tagged out with an entirely different ball.

 

[CatsFanGG24]

You can appeal that she missed home. Guess you would do that with a new ball...don't think the tag should've been relevant. But I've only heard this story, haven't seen it to see how long it took the girl to try and go back and touch the plate.

 

[kritikalcat]

Inside the park or over the fence HR? Seems if the latter either she should be able to go back and touch home plate or automatic out with no regard to being tagged by the catcher

Then again, not up on baseball / softball rule book

 

[Comebakatz3]

You can appeal that she missed home. Guess you would do that with a new ball...don't think the tag should've been relevant. But I've only heard this story, haven't seen it to see how long it took the girl to try and go back and touch the plate.

Here is the link and story:
http://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2017...-player-tagged-out-celebrating-home-run-video

It talks about the rule, but again, doesn't make much sense to me that you can be tagged out with a new ball.

 

[CatsFanGG24]

After watching I think she gave herself up getting that far out of the play - making contact with players and coaches in celebration etc. I guess the tag can play, but It'd be easier to understand/handle if the catcher just touched the plate instead of the girl.

 

[parrott]

Problem is IMO / with the introduction of the new ball in play, the previous play would seem to be dead.

The Ump made the mistake IMO of bringing the new ball back into play too soon. Should have waited until after the play was completed - which it wasn't and she had not gone to the dugout.

Do not think the play was 'live' which would have brought the tag into play. Ball was dead as soon as it left the field.

Runner should have had an opportunity to touch home since it was the last 'base' she touched. Think the ump blew this call but maybe the rules have changed.

Would depend on what the rule is on when the ball becomes 'live' after it has left the park. IMO

 

[CatsFanGG24]

Correct call after looking again - her coach grabs her and pushes her home. That right there ends it.

 

[Comebakatz3]

Problem is IMO / with the introduction of the new ball in play, the previous play would seem to be dead.

The Ump made the mistake IMO of bringing the new ball back into play too soon. Should have waited until after the play was completed - which it wasn't and she had not gone to the dugout.

Do not think the play was 'live' which would have brought the tag into play. Ball was dead as soon as it left the field.

Runner should have had an opportunity to touch home since it was the last 'base' she touched. Think the ump blew this call but maybe the rules have changed.

Would depend on what the rule is on when the ball becomes 'live' after it has left the park. IMO

I don't think the umpire blew the call. I think the umpire got it right by the rules. However, it would seem to me that there shouldn't be an ability to tag out the runner if the ball becomes a dead ball.

 

[Comebakatz3]

Correct call after looking again - her coach grabs her and pushes her home. That right there ends it.

It is definitely the right call, but the rule itself seems strange that there would be an ability to get her out if the ball that she put into play is no longer in play. Hitting a home run would be the only scenario where this would be applicable, so I guess it is just unique.

 

[parrott]

^ Can't disagree with the 'out' called based on the coach 'push' which I would think be interference. Just not sure how the tag comes into play - that is the issue / concern for me as it should be a dead ball.

Where I think the Ump erred was when the new ball was introduced into play but again, that is just an opinion.

 

[LukaszObrzut]

^ Can't disagree with the 'out' called based on the coach 'push' which I would think be interference. Just not sure how the tag comes into play - that is the issue / concern for me as it should be a dead ball.

Where I think the Ump erred was when the new ball was introduced into play but again, that is just an opinion.

If it as a home run though a new ball had to be put in play. Not like they throw the ball back in.

 

[CatsFanGG24]

I think the "tag" is where this gets all messed up - the tag is a bad visual and shouldn't apply IMO. The runner (coach push or not) took herself out of the play and in no way tried to immediately touch home after missing...even if she went and touched home before the "tag" I'd have to say it shouldn't have counted and a common appeal should've been allowed (ball thrown home, catcher touches home). I guess the way the rule is written the tag works (although It seems it shouldn't because I don't think the girl was in play anymore).

The new ball doesn't bother me though. Weird deal - touch home and don't act nuts until doing so LOL

 

[CatsFanGG24]

In regional championship I hit a GS in extra innings...after the play (I didn't know as we were pumped in the dugout) the opposing team appealed that I missed 1st. A new ball was introduced, put in play by the pitcher getting on the rubber, stepping off and then throwing to 1b. It was denied, but boy would that have been a George Brett moment in my life had it not been.

 

[Comebakatz3]

I suppose I kind of see it as though the ball is no longer live and there should be no way using that ball that you could get a runner out. So, part of me says that it really shouldn't matter whether the runner touches every base or not because there really should be no way for the defense to get them out because the same ball is no longer in play.

Lol... I think I am confusing myself.

 

[CatsFanGG24]

Guess don't think of there being separate balls - just think of whether "the" ball is in play or not.

Also, this situation was just a cluster - I am probably wrong with how I see it, but that girl running back to the plate shouldn't have had any impact in my mind...she was too far out of the play to be allowed to touch safely...she was dead if an appeal came, and it did. I think the tag was garbage...play should've been completed by touching home...the girl running back out there muddied things up, but I see her as irrelevant in the play after the celebration and all the time that passed w/out her attempting to right the wrong.

 

[Comebakatz3]

Guess don't think of there being separate balls - just think of whether "the" ball is in play or not.

Also, this situation was just a cluster - I am probably wrong with how I see it, but that girl running back to the plate shouldn't have had any impact in my mind...she was too far out of the play to be allowed to touch safely...she was dead if an appeal came, and it did. I think the tag was garbage...play should've been completed by touching home...the girl running back out there muddied things up, but I see her as irrelevant in the play after the celebration and all the time that passed w/out her attempting to right the wrong.

I can see the umpire unilaterally calling out a runner for not touching a bag or being interfered with. To me, it doesn't make sense to appeal with a new ball because the new ball was not part of the previous play and because it should somewhat signify the start of a new play. Still, that may just be my silly and unique way of looking at it. Maybe it is better to look at it as one continuous game ball rather than separate ones.

 

[sluggercatfan]

In regional championship I hit a GS in extra innings...after the play (I didn't know as we were pumped in the dugout) the opposing team appealed that I missed 1st. A new ball was introduced, put in play by the pitcher getting on the rubber, stepping off and then throwing to 1b. It was denied, but boy would that have been a George Brett moment in my life had it not been.

My nephew told me that if runners were on base that none of the rounds would have counted?

 

[vhcat70]

I'm assuming in college softball that you are not automatically out for touching the next base without touching the previous one, or in this case, giving yourself up (This is true in at least HS baseball.). But if so, the ump should have just called her out when he handed the ball to the catcher.

If not, as I'm assuming, when the ump gives the new ball to the catcher he is saying the ball is dead & the play over. That means he considers the hitter as having given herself up on the play no matter what anyone on her bench tells her to do. Normally that's when the player reaches the bench, but the ump did call it dead before then with his action (Clearly you can't have two balls played on the same live play.)

With the ball dead, there can be no play; i.e., the tag by the catcher, nor can the hitter touch the plate & count as touching. Net, the ball has to first be put in play, the pitcher step off the rubber, and appeal by either walking to the plate & touching it or having the catcher do it.

So the ump was wrong in allowing the tag to count. Whether OM would have executed an appeal play for the out is unknown.

 

[vhcat70]

Viewing the tape again, I think the ump gave the new ball to the catcher awfully quickly vs. giving the hitter at least a bit more of a chance to come back & touch. But as soon as she took one step away from the plate he turned & gave the catcher the new ball. Regardless, the ball is dead when he hands over the new ball.

 

[parrott]

^ Not correct Slugger since this occurred at Home. If she had missed 1st, then no runs would have connected.

Unless of course the rules have changed since I played - which is entirely possible since I am an old.

 

[CatsFanGG24]

My nephew told me that if runners were on base that none of the rounds would have counted?

I have no idea. I did find this online, which to me would read that if one of the earlier base runners missed, any runner after her wouldn't count. I do not know whether your nephew is correct or not.

4.09 HOW A TEAM SCORES.

(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.

EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made.

(1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base;

(2) by any runner being forced out; or

(3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

 

[vhcat70]

My nephew told me that if runners were on base that none of the rounds would have counted?

Wrong. Since she touched 1/2/3, she is credited with a triple and all runners on base counted. Now if she missed first, the runs wouldn't count if their were two previous outs as the appeal would be a 3rd out force out. But if less than 2 previous outs, they still count when she missed first. It's legal to score from any base on a ground out; i.e., an appeal out is not considered a fly out such that runners need to tag up.

 

[CatsFanGG24]

Maybe it is better to look at it as one continuous game ball rather than separate ones.

I think this is the way it is meant to be. When the game was founded they probably only had 1 ball

 

[CatsFanGG24]

Wrong. Since she touched 1/2/3, she is credited with a triple and all runners on base counted. Now if she missed first, the runs wouldn't count if their were two previous outs as the appeal would be a 3rd out force out. But if less than 2 previous outs, they still count when she missed first. It's legal to score from any base on a ground out; i.e., an appeal out is not considered a fly out such that runners need to tag up.

That makes sense.

 

[vhcat70]

I have no idea. I did find this online, which to me would read that if one of the earlier base runners missed, any runner after her wouldn't count. I do not know whether your nephew is correct or not.

4.09 HOW A TEAM SCORES.

(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.

EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made.

(1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base;

(2) by any runner being forced out; or

(3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

This is as I said.

 

[vhcat70]

^ Not correct Slugger since this occurred at Home. If she had missed 1st, then no runs would have connected.

Unless of course the rules have changed since I played - which is entirely possible since I am an old.

If less than 2 outs, runners would count. If two out & batter misses first only, runs would not count. Once she advances to first, runners get all they can get.

 

[vhcat70]

Problem is IMO / with the introduction of the new ball in play, the previous play would seem to be dead.

The Ump made the mistake IMO of bringing the new ball back into play too soon. Should have waited until after the play was completed - which it wasn't and she had not gone to the dugout.

Do not think the play was 'live' which would have brought the tag into play. Ball was dead as soon as it left the field.

Runner should have had an opportunity to touch home since it was the last 'base' she touched. Think the ump blew this call but maybe the rules have changed.

Would depend on what the rule is on when the ball becomes 'live' after it has left the park. IMO

Pretty much agree. Question is if he gave her enough time/distance before he considered her giving up on the play - as you point out. But no way the ball/play was alive for either a touch of home or tag once he handed new ball to catcher.

 

[parrott]

Definitely on the same page vhcat. Just don't think - as you pointed out - that the Ump handled this in the best manner.

 

[vhcat70]

By this, in college softball, unlike baseball, you can make dead ball appeals:

http://www.closecallsports.com/2017/05/case-play-2017-5-dead-ball-missed-base.html

What do I know? See the pink highlight.

And thus the ump apparently did the right thing: Gave the catcher the ball after the hitter/runner was more than a body's length past the base. Had the runner not come back & been tagged, the catcher could have immediately appealed to the ump that she missed home without putting ball in play (Tagging the runner is effectively an appeal to me.). Would she have appealed? Apparently so since she tagged the runner.

Also note that AL didn't protest the game effectively admitting the ump was correct.

The infinite loop section is bogus. Any ump would not hand the catcher a new ball till after the runner passed home plate whether she touched it or not. Net, he's not signalling whether plate was touched or not by watching the hitter pass home, just doing his job.

Baseball rules are highlighted in yellow & what I was going by: No dead ball appeals. Of course HS baseball short-circuits that by not having appeals but instead calling a runner out for missing a base as soon as they touch the next base.