My (Platoon) wish for 21-22

[JonathanW]

Barring any significant injuries or disappointing levels of play by guys, I still believe the Platoon is our best option for 21-22.

1) it creates adequate PT for more players
2) it wears the other team down while keeping our guys fresh, as was evidenced by our historically great defense we had in 14-15 before the Poythress injury when the Platoon was in full force.
3) it does NOT have to be a 20/20 split in minutes, in fact a different split may encourage more effort from the guys hoping to get-on or stay-on the first unit. It could be 22/18 or 24/16 or other splits.
4) it promotes better team cohesion, and knowing where your teammates are even if you don't see them, because you are with the same 4 all the time
5) it means more guys are happy playing significant minutes, and less likely to transfer after the season
6) it works best when there is not a big difference in the quality of the 2 units, and you 10th guy is not much worse than your 5th guy. And right now I think we have 10 maybe 11 guys who some segment of fans think should start or play at least 20 minutes per game.

My 2 units, I would play the Blue unit 24 minutes, and the White unit 16 minutes (approximately per game), with 4 minute shifts, so 5 shifts per half. Of course you can adjust if foul problems or big matchup or performance problems. Also, I would like it fluid throughout the season, so a guy can earn his way up or down from Blue to White or White to Blue or neither to White.

My Blue:
5-Oscar (even if no platoon, fouls may limit him to 24mpg anyway)
4-Brooks (or Toppin, but I think because of the other and desire to have our 3's make 3's it will be hard to play either much more than 24 mpg)
3-Grady (probably will be our best scorer, and toughest to keep off the court)
2-Mintz (we saw and liked Mintz last year, good not great, so with this group 24mpg probably his max too)
1-Tyty (if decision making is there, may be as tough as Grady to keep off court)

My White:
5-Collins (not the bulk for a 5, but should be a rim protector, and if needed Ware can step in if he is getting manhandled too much)
4-Toppin (I think it 50/50 with him or Brooks on Blue vs White)
3-Allen/Hopkins (the 3 for each game may depend on both matchup for the game and performance the past few games, i.e. maybe Allen for 20 games and Hopkins for 15 games)
2-Fredrick (him and Allen on unit together could be really good shooting freeing up the other 3, but hopefully not a defensive liability)
1-Wheeler (if Tyty struggles with decision making, maybe he moves to Blue at 1, Tyty slides to the 2, and Mintz becomes the 1 on White)

Bench:
Allen or Hopkins
Ware

For those who say it hurts recruiting. I'm not sure I believe that. What hurt recruiting more was shoe companies started paying players to go to Duke, to KU, to Ariz, to LSU. But after that season we still got highly rated guys (Skal, Murray, Briscoe, Fox, Bam, Monk, Knox, Washington, Diallo, Vanderbilt) and then if fell off for (Johnson, Quickley, Maxey, Boston, Clarke). But fewer of those top rated guys performed at that level, so maybe it was more player evaluations by the coaching staff than recruiting. It would have taken a genius to point out to a recruit about how the Platoon did NOT hurt the draft status of our guys in 2015 (may have helped).

 

[Lempface]

Barring any significant injuries or disappointing levels of play by guys, I still believe the Platoon is our best option for 21-22.

1) it creates adequate PT for more players
2) it wears the other team down while keeping our guys fresh, as was evidenced by our historically great defense we had in 14-15 before the Poythress injury when the Platoon was in full force.
3) it does NOT have to be a 20/20 split in minutes, in fact a different split may encourage more effort from the guys hoping to get-on or stay-on the first unit. It could be 22/18 or 24/16 or other splits.
4) it promotes better team cohesion, and knowing where your teammates are even if you don't see them, because you are with the same 4 all the time
5) it works best when there is not a big difference in the quality of the 2 units, and you 10th guy is not much worse than your 5th guy. And right now I think we have 10 maybe 11 guys who some segment of fans think should start or play at least 20 minutes per game.

My 2 units, I would play the Blue unit 24 minutes, and the White unit 16 minutes (approximately per game), with 4 minute shifts, so 5 shifts per half. Of course you can adjust if foul problems or big matchup or performance problems. Also, I would like it fluid throughout the season, so a guy can earn his way up or down from Blue to White or White to Blue or neither to White.

My Blue:
5-Oscar (even if no platoon, fouls may limit him to 24mpg anyway)
4-Brooks (or Toppin, but I think because of the other and desire to have our 3's make 3's it will be hard to play either much more than 24 mpg)
3-Grady (probably will be our best scorer, and toughest to keep off the court)
2-Mintz (we saw and liked Mintz last year, good not great, so with this group 24mpg probably his max too)
1-Tyty (if decision making is there, may be as tough as Grady to keep off court)

My White:
5-Collins (not the bulk for a 5, but should be a rim protector, and if needed Ware can step in if he is getting manhandled too much)
4-Toppin (I think it 50/50 with him or Brooks on Blue vs White)
3-Allen/Hopkins (the 3 for each game may depend on both matchup for the game and performance the past few games, i.e. maybe Allen for 20 games and Hopkins for 15 games)
2-Fredrick (him and Allen on unit together could be really good shooting freeing up the other 3, but hopefully not a defensive liability)
1-Wheeler (if Tyty struggles with decision making, maybe he moves to Blue at 1, Tyty slides to the 2, and Mintz becomes the 1 on White)

Bench:
Allen or Hopkins
Ware

For those who say it hurts recruiting. I'm not sure I believe that. What hurt recruiting more was shoe companies started paying players to go to Duke, to KU, to Ariz, to LSU. But after that season we still got highly rated guys (Skal, Murray, Briscoe, Fox, Bam, Monk, Knox, Washington, Diallo, Vanderbilt) and then if fell off for (Johnson, Quickley, Maxey, Boston, Clarke). But fewer of those top rated guys performed at that level, so maybe it was more player evaluations by the coaching staff than recruiting. It would have taken a genius to point out to a recruit about how the Platoon did NOT hurt the draft status of our guys in 2015 (may have helped).

Platoon definitely helped their draft status. In fact, as a highly rated recruit in an era where the NBA is drafting so much on potential, limiting your minutes and being surrounded by other great players does a lot to limit exposure to a player's weaknesses. It's why a guy like Orton can get drafted since he wasn't featured but certainly had an allure of potential around him to NBA scouts. It's strange, and not how I'd run a team, but thems the facts.

 

[Smashcat]

I love the platoon, when you have the depth. The 2015 team only became vulnerable when Cal tightened up the rotation (as dopey Vitale was screaming for).🤨

 

[St.PatterSoN-54-]

I like your platoon idea better than mine.

And that's saying something, because Willem Dafoe was incredible.

 

[Titpwhami2014]

I like your platoon idea better than mine.

And that's saying something, because Willem Dafoe was incredible.

Yep, Addagio With Strings will be playing in my head the rest of the afternoon.

 

[UKrazycat2]

Barring any significant injuries or disappointing levels of play by guys, I still believe the Platoon is our best option for 21-22.

1) it creates adequate PT for more players
2) it wears the other team down while keeping our guys fresh, as was evidenced by our historically great defense we had in 14-15 before the Poythress injury when the Platoon was in full force.
3) it does NOT have to be a 20/20 split in minutes, in fact a different split may encourage more effort from the guys hoping to get-on or stay-on the first unit. It could be 22/18 or 24/16 or other splits.
4) it promotes better team cohesion, and knowing where your teammates are even if you don't see them, because you are with the same 4 all the time
5) it works best when there is not a big difference in the quality of the 2 units, and you 10th guy is not much worse than your 5th guy. And right now I think we have 10 maybe 11 guys who some segment of fans think should start or play at least 20 minutes per game.

My 2 units, I would play the Blue unit 24 minutes, and the White unit 16 minutes (approximately per game), with 4 minute shifts, so 5 shifts per half. Of course you can adjust if foul problems or big matchup or performance problems. Also, I would like it fluid throughout the season, so a guy can earn his way up or down from Blue to White or White to Blue or neither to White.

My Blue:
5-Oscar (even if no platoon, fouls may limit him to 24mpg anyway)
4-Brooks (or Toppin, but I think because of the other and desire to have our 3's make 3's it will be hard to play either much more than 24 mpg)
3-Grady (probably will be our best scorer, and toughest to keep off the court)
2-Mintz (we saw and liked Mintz last year, good not great, so with this group 24mpg probably his max too)
1-Tyty (if decision making is there, may be as tough as Grady to keep off court)

My White:
5-Collins (not the bulk for a 5, but should be a rim protector, and if needed Ware can step in if he is getting manhandled too much)
4-Toppin (I think it 50/50 with him or Brooks on Blue vs White)
3-Allen/Hopkins (the 3 for each game may depend on both matchup for the game and performance the past few games, i.e. maybe Allen for 20 games and Hopkins for 15 games)
2-Fredrick (him and Allen on unit together could be really good shooting freeing up the other 3, but hopefully not a defensive liability)
1-Wheeler (if Tyty struggles with decision making, maybe he moves to Blue at 1, Tyty slides to the 2, and Mintz becomes the 1 on White)

Bench:
Allen or Hopkins
Ware

For those who say it hurts recruiting. I'm not sure I believe that. What hurt recruiting more was shoe companies started paying players to go to Duke, to KU, to Ariz, to LSU. But after that season we still got highly rated guys (Skal, Murray, Briscoe, Fox, Bam, Monk, Knox, Washington, Diallo, Vanderbilt) and then if fell off for (Johnson, Quickley, Maxey, Boston, Clarke). But fewer of those top rated guys performed at that level, so maybe it was more player evaluations by the coaching staff than recruiting. It would have taken a genius to point out to a recruit about how the Platoon did NOT hurt the draft status of our guys in 2015 (may have helped).

Good post....but Coach said never again. I wish he would consider it. Cal had the horses to seal the deal even minus Poythress, but other factors reared their ugly head too.

 

[westerncat]

I agree with OP and I agree Platoon did not hurt recruiting or draft status. I would love to see us do it again and don't understand why Cal will not do it. Everyone gets to play and I love to see us run teams in the ground. And as a side note I thing a lot of fans are under estimating Ware as this is his 2nd year and he knows the system. Sophomores improve over their Freshmen years.

 

[JwUKFan11]

I would be fine with Platooning but you would have to even out the talent. Basically in your example you had the best 5 players and then their backups on the second team. Personally I think you would have to put Grady and Mintz on the second Platoon so that you have even production and one isn’t a let down.

 

[cornbreadnmilk]

I think we will need Oscar to stay on the floor most of the game to get anywhere.Collins/Ware are question marks.

 

[BlueBomb]

I suppose I'm the only one who is not in favor of platooning, I think it hurts way more than it helps. Cal only did it that one year because he needed to keep all those five stars happy.

There's a reason they made a TV show called Eight is Enough.

 

[gharding07]

We could against the shitty teams, but other than that you only need a solid 8 man rotation.

 

[YardCat]

Platoon will show your better players and against good teams you might have to lower minutes of some and play who is doing the best that game. But, will Cal do it, it is like saying we are going to play zone.

 

[KMKAT]

Hate it when Cal digs in and gets stubborn. I seriously think the fan base was all in on the platoon system. 38-1 is nothing to hate.

And Cal playing zone is like Cal saying we are going to press.....or run out of bounds plays.

 

[JonathanW]

I would be fine with Platooning but you would have to even out the talent. Basically in your example you had the best 5 players and then their backups on the second team. Personally I think you would have to put Grady and Mintz on the second Platoon so that you have even production and one isn’t a let down.

The reason I have the best 5 in the same group is because those 5 are going to play more minutes, 2 extra rotations a game.

In a 20/20 mix, I would seperate Fredrick and Allen.

 

[JonathanW]

We could against the shitty teams, but other than that you only need a solid 8 man rotation.

Point being, who are #9,10,11? And are #7 & 8 really better than those 3 this year. I'm thinking not.
And another advantage that I missed, but will add is that the platoon may help retain more guys from transfering. If you have an 8 man rotation, increases the chances 9-12 may transfer.
The reason you usually stop at 8, is because well you need at least 7-8 so that your top 5 get some rest, and 9-12 aren't nearly as good as 1-5. That does not appear to be the case this year, where I bet that 2nd unit would beat the first unit 40% of the time, and some may be wanting guys like Hopkins, Allen, Fredrick, Collins to start.

 

[TheOtherGreatOne]

Barring any significant injuries or disappointing levels of play by guys, I still believe the Platoon is our best option for 21-22.

1) it creates adequate PT for more players
2) it wears the other team down while keeping our guys fresh, as was evidenced by our historically great defense we had in 14-15 before the Poythress injury when the Platoon was in full force.
3) it does NOT have to be a 20/20 split in minutes, in fact a different split may encourage more effort from the guys hoping to get-on or stay-on the first unit. It could be 22/18 or 24/16 or other splits.
4) it promotes better team cohesion, and knowing where your teammates are even if you don't see them, because you are with the same 4 all the time
5) it means more guys are happy playing significant minutes, and less likely to transfer after the season
6) it works best when there is not a big difference in the quality of the 2 units, and you 10th guy is not much worse than your 5th guy. And right now I think we have 10 maybe 11 guys who some segment of fans think should start or play at least 20 minutes per game.

My 2 units, I would play the Blue unit 24 minutes, and the White unit 16 minutes (approximately per game), with 4 minute shifts, so 5 shifts per half. Of course you can adjust if foul problems or big matchup or performance problems. Also, I would like it fluid throughout the season, so a guy can earn his way up or down from Blue to White or White to Blue or neither to White.

My Blue:
5-Oscar (even if no platoon, fouls may limit him to 24mpg anyway)
4-Brooks (or Toppin, but I think because of the other and desire to have our 3's make 3's it will be hard to play either much more than 24 mpg)
3-Grady (probably will be our best scorer, and toughest to keep off the court)
2-Mintz (we saw and liked Mintz last year, good not great, so with this group 24mpg probably his max too)
1-Tyty (if decision making is there, may be as tough as Grady to keep off court)

My White:
5-Collins (not the bulk for a 5, but should be a rim protector, and if needed Ware can step in if he is getting manhandled too much)
4-Toppin (I think it 50/50 with him or Brooks on Blue vs White)
3-Allen/Hopkins (the 3 for each game may depend on both matchup for the game and performance the past few games, i.e. maybe Allen for 20 games and Hopkins for 15 games)
2-Fredrick (him and Allen on unit together could be really good shooting freeing up the other 3, but hopefully not a defensive liability)
1-Wheeler (if Tyty struggles with decision making, maybe he moves to Blue at 1, Tyty slides to the 2, and Mintz becomes the 1 on White)

Bench:
Allen or Hopkins
Ware

For those who say it hurts recruiting. I'm not sure I believe that. What hurt recruiting more was shoe companies started paying players to go to Duke, to KU, to Ariz, to LSU. But after that season we still got highly rated guys (Skal, Murray, Briscoe, Fox, Bam, Monk, Knox, Washington, Diallo, Vanderbilt) and then if fell off for (Johnson, Quickley, Maxey, Boston, Clarke). But fewer of those top rated guys performed at that level, so maybe it was more player evaluations by the coaching staff than recruiting. It would have taken a genius to point out to a recruit about how the Platoon did NOT hurt the draft status of our guys in 2015 (may have helped).

I thought everyone on here said no more platooning I thought that was why recruiting fell off after that year make up your mind platoon or not platoon. You can't have it both ways

 

[drbubba]

Good post....but Coach said never again. I wish he would consider it. Cal had the horses to seal the deal even minus Poythress, but other factors reared their ugly head too.

Then call it something else so

Good post....but Coach said never again. I wish he would consider it. Cal had the horses to seal the deal even minus Poythress, but other factors reared their ugly head too.

Then call it something else so Cal won't look like a liar. 2 crews, dual threat, double trouble, shifts, lines, teeth and claws...whatever. I just love the idea and what we had in 2015.

 

[JPScott]

I thought everyone on here said no more platooning I thought that was why recruiting fell off after that year make up your mind platoon or not platoon. You can't have it both ways

Only people who don’t like blowouts are against platoons.

 

[JonathanW]

I thought everyone on here said no more platooning I thought that was why recruiting fell off after that year make up your mind platoon or not platoon. You can't have it both ways

Then you’ve not paid much attention. Many of us did NOT say that and have been pro-platoon with the right roster. And this roster is made for it more than even 2015 was.

 

[JonathanW]

Then call it something else so
Then call it something else so Cal won't look like a liar. 2 crews, dual threat, double trouble, shifts, lines, teeth and claws...whatever. I just love the idea and what we had in 2015.

2 shifts, like hockey

 

[Wildcats1st]

One or two injuries and platoon is done it’s mid season and you gotta readjust. It may be effective short run but is not practical in a 35-40 game season. Coaching is about recognizing matchups and turning those to your favor. Unless you have 10 of the top 20 players in college basketball platooning is predictable and easy for opponents to scout.

This team this year does not have anywhere close to a 10 man rotation that are head and shoulders above the competition. We will have to fight for wins which means adjusting and going with the best matchups.

 

[kyjeff1]

I believe Cal has something up his sleeve. Maybe it's a modified platoon, but guys like Ware, Hopkins, Collins, Allen and Toppin stayed, even though Cal has stated he’s going with a 3 or 4 guard offense.
How in the world are those guys going to get pt if Cal is rolling with a top 7 or 8?
The transfer portal makes it way too easy for kids to walk away from your program, yet those 5 guys stayed. Something is up.

 

[travisbickle]

I believe Cal has something up his sleeve. Maybe it's a modified platoon, but guys like Ware, Hopkins, Collins, Allen and Toppin stayed, even though Cal has stated he’s going with a 3 or 4 guard offense.
How in the world are those guys going to get pt if Cal is rolling with a top 7 or 8?
The transfer portal makes it way too easy for kids to walk away from your program, yet those 5 guys stayed. Something is up.

Agreed. If Cal has made true changes in his approach after the abomination of last season (and I think he has), then he might have something else up his sleeve.

The Tweak to end all Tweaks.

 

[kyjeff1]

Agreed. If Cal has made true changes in his approach after the abomination of last season (and I think he has), then he might have something else up his sleeve.

The Tweak to end all Tweaks.

Yeah, Cal has revealed some of his changes for this upcoming season, but one thing is for damn sure, he never tells us everything he's going to do.
It's very possible that the new offense is just a small taste of what he has planned.

 

[JonathanW]

One or two injuries and platoon is done it’s mid season and you gotta readjust. It may be effective short run but is not practical in a 35-40 game season. Coaching is about recognizing matchups and turning those to your favor. Unless you have 10 of the top 20 players in college basketball platooning is predictable and easy for opponents to scout.

This team this year does not have anywhere close to a 10 man rotation that are head and shoulders above the competition. We will have to fight for wins which means adjusting and going with the best matchups.

First of all, 2 significant injuries and any team is screwed! And I like our top 11, so think we could withstand 1 injury. And even our 12th guy ain’t bad.

Secondly you got it backwards. The platoon doesn’t turn things in your favor when you have 10 of the top 20 guys on your team, talent is what does that. The platoon turns things in your favor when you are bringing in a fresh shift/unit that is comparable to the unit you are taking out, while your opponent can only give 2-3 guys rest at a time otherwise they have a big drop off in talent.

 

[Wildcats1st]

First of all, 2 significant injuries and any team is screwed! And I like our top 11, so think we could withstand 1 injury. And even our 12th guy ain’t bad.

Secondly you got it backwards. The platoon doesn’t turn things in your favor when you have 10 of the top 20 guys on your team, talent is what does that. The platoon turns things in your favor when you are bringing in a fresh shift/unit that is comparable to the unit you are taking out, while your opponent can only give 2-3 guys rest at a time otherwise they have a big drop off in talent.

If you’re gonna win a natty with a platoon it better be with elite players everywhere. I mean both units have to be top 5 caliber or you are sacrificing your talent for depth. Sometimes that happens but if I’m coaching I want my best players in the game the majority of the time. Very rarely if ever are you going to have two teams without much drop off. And no losing a player or two isn’t the kiss of death in an 8 man rotation if you have the depth to develop and have ready.

A guy like Frederic for instance should be able to jump into a role if we lose mintz or Grady. Theres no sense to force Fredric on the floor for the sake of platooning.

that 2015 team for every stud that was taken out the next guy was as good or better. That’s not gonna happen again.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

I believe Cal has something up his sleeve. Maybe it's a modified platoon, but guys like Ware, Hopkins, Collins, Allen and Toppin stayed, even though Cal has stated he’s going with a 3 or 4 guard offense.
How in the world are those guys going to get pt if Cal is rolling with a top 7 or 8?
The transfer portal makes it way too easy for kids to walk away from your program, yet those 5 guys stayed. Something is up.

Maybe he's treating this year as a stop gap and telling recruits "it is what it is" right now? That and the fact that he won't be reliant on springtime stud freshmen like he was in 2015-2016 when he was recruiting Brown, Newman, Diallo, Zimmerman, etc. He's already got his studs in Sharpe and Livingston, and if springtime recruits don't like his system this season, he can simply dig into the transfer well.

 

[JonathanW]

If you’re gonna win a natty with a platoon it better be with elite players everywhere. I mean both units have to be top 5 caliber or you are sacrificing your talent for depth. Sometimes that happens but if I’m coaching I want my best players in the game the majority of the time. Very rarely if ever are you going to have two teams without much drop off. And no losing a player or two isn’t the kiss of death in an 8 man rotation if you have the depth to develop and have ready.

A guy like Frederic for instance should be able to jump into a role if we lose mintz or Grady. Theres no sense to force Fredric on the floor for the sake of platooning.

that 2015 team for every stud that was taken out the next guy was as good or better. That’s not gonna happen again.

You are simply wrong!
Why don’t teams only play only top 5 guys? Because they don’t play as well tired and need rest, or will coast at times on the court to save themselves for later.

As great as that 2015 was, the starting 5 might not have been the best starting 5 in the country, top 5 but maybe not top 1. But that 2nd unit (before aPoythress injury so with Lyles), even with Lee, was a top 20 starting 5. There was a big difference between KAT and WCS vs Johnson and Lee! I don’t see a big gap like that this year.

Suppose you had 10 guys that were identical in skill. Would you pick 5 and go with them for 40min? No! Use the ability to have fresh guys on the floor all 40 minutes to your advantage.

We don’t have this year a top 5 or even top 10 starting 5, more like a top 15 group. But we may have the best 2nd 5 in the country, a group that could also be a top 25 starting 5 themselves. Our top 5 are at most only marginally better than the 2nd 5; and I think a rested 2nd unit guy probably be better than a tired 1st unit guy. So we need to use that, and our ability to have rested players on the court for 40 minutes to our advantage.

 

[kyjeff1]

Seems like we have enough legit depth to not only run a very good platoon, but still have a couple of very good reserves that can step in where needed. We are 12 or 13 deep aren't we?

 

[RondoBaller21]

We could against the shitty teams, but other than that you only need a solid 8 man rotation.

Too many good players to just stick with 8.

 

[gharding07]

Too many good players to just stick with 8.

They won't all play well. A few will drift to the back and not play.

 

[jrpross]

The problem I have with it is that it pigeonholes you into lineups and you can’t play the matchups. You’re going to run into situations where someone is in foul trouble. Or your big guy is doing well, but your guards are getting beat or vice versa. Switching out one guy makes more sense in that situation than bringing in the other platoon. 2015 didn’t have the matchup issue as much because outside of Ulis, the average height of that team was like 6’9” and nobody could match up with them.

Just my .02.

 

[Mash 2.4]

Cal wont platoon again. How can he play 56-54 grinders against teams with inferior talent if he platoons? He learned that lesson in 15.

 

[bucsrule8872]

I think platooning is best when the players 1-10 are pretty close in talent.

If some players are clearly better than the rest, it’s hard not to play them 30+ minutes.

But if your top 5 are only marginally better than your 6-10 guys, it’s easier to play both units fairly equally.

 

[JonathanW]

The problem I have with it is that it pigeonholes you into lineups and you can’t play the matchups. You’re going to run into situations where someone is in foul trouble. Or your big guy is doing well, but your guards are getting beat or vice versa. Switching out one guy makes more sense in that situation than bringing in the other platoon. 2015 didn’t have the matchup issue as much because outside of Ulis, the average height of that team was like 6’9” and nobody could match up with them.

Just my .02.

I do get that one point against. I think any coaching idea (platoon, Ironman, press, zone, m2m,…) has some pluses and minuses, situations it is a good idea and some it a bad idea.
One way to try to lessen the matchup issue is to make the 2 units fluid from game to game. I.e. playing a pressing team move Wheeler to first unit, Brooks is in a slump switch units with Toppin.