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John Wooden and Kentucky Fans

BlueRattie

Sophomore
Feb 6, 2014
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So, I'm at work the other day and the subject of John Wooden comes up. My friends at work are, like me, die hard UK fans, with the exception of one very partisan UofL fan.

I found out immediately that each of them, to a man, were very enamored of John Wooden. They spoke of his "love for his players" and that he was "the greatest X's and O's basketball coach to ever live" that he did things "the right way" and that modern college basketball could "really learn something from him."

I completely burst their bubble by saying that I had zero, absolutely no respect for Wooden as a coach or a human being. I explained that Wooden was actually a good example of everything that is wrong with college sports in general: the use of power and prestige to trump what everyone knows is right. For years, Wooden turned a blind eye to boosters paying his players. Late in his career, it wasn't a question of "did he know?" it was, "how is he covering it up?" He used his considerable pull to bully UCLA officials and perhaps even NCAA officials. The obliged him because tearing down his facade would damage their reputations as well, since they too fueled the myth of Wooden as the patron Saint of Basketball Holiness. All the time, Wooden cultivated his reputation for basketball piety and life-affirming goodness, writing books and spinning folksy maxims that he former (well paid) players would echo on TV and in print. He was a walking definition of the term "hypocrite".

I explained to them that this was by no means a secret. Several books and countless newspaper and magazine articles have covered this material many times. No one who was at UCLA at the time denies it. The man flat out cheated, end of story.

When confronted with the evidence, my co-workers simply shrugged their shoulders. "I don't care what he did," stated on of my friends, "that man could flat out coach." (BTW, you might want to check yourself when you state sentences with "I don't care what he did"). They made it clear to me that they found it unsettling that I would "deny" Wooden's greatness, even questioning my character.

I was flabbergasted; it was like living in bizzaro world. Is the Wooden myth this pervasive? Has it infected even UK fans to the point that we can't openly criticize a man who shameless cheated to win? I don't defend Eddie Sutton, and I'm sure as hell not going to defend John Wooden.

Thoughts on this matter?
 
He has that status with a lot of people,just to many good things written about the man.I hate to quote a western but like an old John Wayne movie(when the legend becomes fact print the legend).

The man who shot Liberty Valance.
 
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wodencheater is the WORST CHEATER in college basketball history--now tied with unccheaters, deanocheater and cryroycheater.

The WORST of the wORST!!!

rr
 
Nobody is a bad or as good as the populace make them out to be. Wooden did a LOT of things right! Yeah, he did a lot of things wrong too.

I guess he is just another human being much like those who throw the stones.

For the record, I would NEVER put Wooden in the same category as Dean Smith, who completely exploited black athletes and thought they were too dumb to get a legit degree.
 
UCLA also benefited from a literal cakewalk to the Final Four every year in an era when they only had to play other west coast teams (who all sucked) in the tournament. The modern equivalent is Duke who gets padded brackets every year.
 
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One of the former players (believe it was Larry Farmer) said he wasn't thrilled to graduate and play in the NBA since he'd have to take a pay cut.
 
I used to revere Wooden. Then I learned the amount of cheating that went on at UCLA. While he may have been a wonderful man, coach and general human being, his legacy is forever tainted in my mind.
 
Have them Google Sam Gilbert. He was responsible for getting Alcindor, and most of the good players after him. Some say that Wooden didn't know that Gilbert was cheating, but he was on record that in 1969 he asked about the expensive clothes that players were wearing, and turned a blind eye to the situation. Bill Walton has been very forthcoming about the money and benefits that he and all the other players received. Jerry Tarkanian always claimed that the NCAA knew about the cheating and did nothing about it.
 
Take away buying players and he is totally ordinary in the coaching realm..........nothing special and nothing worth speaking about..................
 
I knew Walton had said that as well, but I believe Farmer also made that statement. May have been Wilks but it was one of the forwards they had in the '70's.
 
I can't stand the way the Wooden legend is still propped up in this day and age... especially by the Sports Media, which certainly knows better.

I feel the same way about Krybabyschitzski.
 
Every time I hear the name wooden pop up I cringe. He was a fraud of a human being. Yes he did win a lot and was very successful but most of that is due to the fact of the cash flow that was being given to those players. Isn't it funny that his dominance obonly occurred during a short time span? To me he is more scum than any coach in college basketball history.
 
I respect Wooden as a man. As legendary sportswriter Jim Miller once said of him, "he's so square he's divisible by four". Wooden was one of those guys who spent two hours showing players how to wear double socks and tie their shoes the right way to avoid blisters, according to Walton. I truly believe players knew that if they did all the corny things he said on his time, they could keep what they did on their time away from him. Same thing happened at Michigan with Webber and that coach. Webber said he was a boy scout and had absolutely nothing to do with what he was doing behind the scenes.

As a coach....he lost his first six NCAA tournament games. He made a lot of Final Fours because there was no one out west to challenge him. He had the best players because of Sam Gilbert. Denny Crum said on Joe B and Denny that his freshman team scrimmaged a national championship team and beat them almost every day. So they were like 2015 Kentucky only without any Wisconsins around to stop them. His 10 titles don't carry the weight they should in my mind.
 
So much of what has been said in this thread is ridiculous. Wooden was a great coach and a good person too. To call him "scum" is really ridiculous. No one has ever accused him of participating in cheating, or of Gilbert having any role in recruiting. Here is news for you - back in the 60s/70s many schools had boosters who bought things for players. Does anyone remember the $100 handshakes at UK? I'm not defending what Gilbert did or that Wooden might have turned a "blind eye" in some respects, but you guys are way off on your facts.
 
So much of what has been said in this thread is ridiculous. Wooden was a great coach and a good person too. To call him "scum" is really ridiculous. No one has ever accused him of participating in cheating, or of Gilbert having any role in recruiting. Here is news for you - back in the 60s/70s many schools had boosters who bought things for players. Does anyone remember the $100 handshakes at UK? I'm not defending what Gilbert did or that Wooden might have turned a "blind eye" in some respects, but you guys are way off on your facts.
You're missing (ignoring) a few facts too. Yes Coach Wooden was a good man and a super great coach. Anyone who suggests otherwise is blind with bias.
But other programs in that era were punished for cheating. So "everyone was doing it" does NOT apply or excuse his sins. And UCLA players (as has been mentioned) have documented the massive indiscretions. $100 handshakes is a pimple by comparison.
Coach Wooden owns that, whether history (or you) suggest otherwise.
 
You're missing (ignoring) a few facts too. Yes Coach Wooden was a good man and a super great coach. Anyone who suggests otherwise is blind with bias.
But other programs in that era were punished for cheating. So "everyone was doing it" does NOT apply or excuse his sins. And UCLA players (as has been mentioned) have documented the massive indiscretions. $100 handshakes is a pimple by comparison.
Coach Wooden owns that, whether history (or you) suggest otherwise.

Well, perhaps we can agree that everyone in this thread besides you and me is "blind with bias", because everyone else has said he was a bad guy and/or a bad coach who only won because he cheated.

UCLA was put on probation in the late 70s because of Gilbert, so it's not like nothing ever happened to them. And, once again, Gilbert was not involved in recruiting, or anything else but buying things for players who were already on campus.

Joe Hall was coach during the $100 handshake era. Does that make him "scum"? Obviously not.
 
Wooden was a good coach, Sam Gilbert made him a legend.

IMO he was a sanctimonious _____ because he turned a blind eye to what was going on, he knew it was going on and did nothing about it. What was going on at UCLA was way beyond $100 dollar handshakes.
 
JW was never implicated the same way JC was never implicated.

Sam Gilbert existing in that era is only the fault of two organizations. The Pac-8 and the NCAA.

End of story.
 
This thread is evidence that we as fans are biased and often not fully informed.

Post a thread on Tark and you will discover that most consider him a hero for battling the NCAA and even will say he liked UK. Yet, he wrote the book on cheating. Go figure.
 
Well, perhaps we can agree that everyone in this thread besides you and me is "blind with bias", because everyone else has said he was a bad guy and/or a bad coach who only won because he cheated.

UCLA was put on probation in the late 70s because of Gilbert, so it's not like nothing ever happened to them. And, once again, Gilbert was not involved in recruiting, or anything else but buying things for players who were already on campus.

Joe Hall was coach during the $100 handshake era. Does that make him "scum"? Obviously not.

Do you really believe that if what you say about Gilbert is true and he didn't get involved until the players got to UCLA which I do not believe is the truth that the players already there were not telling the recruits all about their sugar daddy Gilbert and how he would take care of them if they came to UCLA. I thought you Dore people were supposed to be smart. Than again you likely were never inside of a college classroom.

UCLA was dirty for years and Wooden was not a dummy. He knew what was going on. There is also another thing and it is that Walton admitted he was high on pot most of the time he was at UCLA including in the games he played. If you think his coach didn't know that you are dumber than most.
 
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IMO the NCAA knows if they dug into the crap that happened during the Wooden-Gilbert era that they would have to vacate a lot of NCAA championships and I don't think they have the stomach for doing that.

They also do not want to bring down another of their supposed saints in Wooden to join other of their supposed saints like Paterno and Dean Smith that have proven to not to be so saintly after all.
 
I didn't say he was a bad coach. Just that his 10 titles don't mean what they should because he wasn't on a level playing field with others of his time. Kind of like Richard Petty's 200 victories in NASCAR.
 
wooden may be biggest liar, cheater in the history of basketball. Yes that is saying a lot but Sam Gilbert made the guy a winner with money, and more money and taking care of any uclan that could be bought. Somebody said Farmer said he took a paycut to the NBA, not sure about that. But Bill Walton clearly said he took a paycut. The facts are out there, just check Gilbert and read what Tarkanian said about the revered one wooden. Tark knew he was a liar and a cheat, he just had the lying press support him with all those titles. Sometimes the facts outweigh the 'opinion', it sure does in this case.

Paterno may be a saint compared to this guy. Who knows?
 
wooden may be biggest liar, cheater in the history of basketball. Yes that is saying a lot but Sam Gilbert made the guy a winner with money, and more money and taking care of any uclan that could be bought. Somebody said Farmer said he took a paycut to the NBA, not sure about that. But Bill Walton clearly said he took a paycut. The facts are out there, just check Gilbert and read what Tarkanian said about the revered one wooden. Tark knew he was a liar and a cheat, he just had the lying press support him with all those titles. Sometimes the facts outweigh the 'opinion', it sure does in this case.

Paterno may be a saint compared to this guy. Who knows?

Tark? The same cheater who ripped UK?
 
Well, perhaps we can agree that everyone in this thread besides you and me is "blind with bias", because everyone else has said he was a bad guy and/or a bad coach who only won because he cheated.

UCLA was put on probation in the late 70s because of Gilbert, so it's not like nothing ever happened to them. And, once again, Gilbert was not involved in recruiting, or anything else but buying things for players who were already on campus.

Joe Hall was coach during the $100 handshake era. Does that make him "scum"? Obviously not.
They were put on probation once, after Wooden retired. If they wanted to dig into all the problems at UCLA, they could have pulled most of their banners. And as far as how good of a coach that Wooden was, it is really hard to say, since the talent level was so skewed. All you can go by is how successful he was before Gilbert started buying players, and going by that, he was ok, but certainly not great. Plus, if you think that we are blowing it out of proportion, then you certainly are unwilling to listen to facts, as stated by one of his players that was receiving the illegal benefits, namely Walton. He talked about luxury apartments and cars. If you don't think that is evidence then go back to the Vandy board and listen to the crickets.
 
Tark didn't like UK, but I always liked his outspoken ways. He basically admits that he cheated at UNLV, but that he got a bad reputation and got hit by the NCAA more so than everyone else who was cheating just as much.
 
UCLA also benefited from a literal cakewalk to the Final Four every year in an era when they only had to play other west coast teams (who all sucked) in the tournament. The modern equivalent is Duke who gets padded brackets every year.
Literally just stepping on a path made out of cake and other assorted dessert items. Squish squish.
 
Tark liked UK. He said so on a couple of occasions. He just liked to needle the NCAA more. Before this year's tournament his family said they were huge Calipari and Kentucky fans.
 
So much of what has been said in this thread is ridiculous. Wooden was a great coach and a good person too. To call him "scum" is really ridiculous. No one has ever accused him of participating in cheating, or of Gilbert having any role in recruiting. Here is news for you - back in the 60s/70s many schools had boosters who bought things for players. Does anyone remember the $100 handshakes at UK? I'm not defending what Gilbert did or that Wooden might have turned a "blind eye" in some respects, but you guys are way off on your facts.

One can say, 'yeah everyone was doing something under the table in the 1960's' etc. and they might be right, but one thing about Wooden and UCLA was that at the time, they were probably the only school which was truly recruiting nationwide. Other schools were generally recruiting regionally and in some cases, like UNC with New York City kids, was recruiting a particular region of the country.

That doesn't mean the other schools were completely innocent, but UCLA's stars were coming from all over the country, which makes it somewhat different and higher level of cheating to learn that they were allowing extra benefits etc. to keep these kids in school, if not to entice them to come in the first place.
 
I think programs have been doing something under the table since programs started making money for the schools. And it has never stopped.
 
So, I'm at work the other day and the subject of John Wooden comes up. My friends at work are, like me, die hard UK fans, with the exception of one very partisan UofL fan.

I found out immediately that each of them, to a man, were very enamored of John Wooden. They spoke of his "love for his players" and that he was "the greatest X's and O's basketball coach to ever live" that he did things "the right way" and that modern college basketball could "really learn something from him."

I completely burst their bubble by saying that I had zero, absolutely no respect for Wooden as a coach or a human being. I explained that Wooden was actually a good example of everything that is wrong with college sports in general: the use of power and prestige to trump what everyone knows is right. For years, Wooden turned a blind eye to boosters paying his players. Late in his career, it wasn't a question of "did he know?" it was, "how is he covering it up?" He used his considerable pull to bully UCLA officials and perhaps even NCAA officials. The obliged him because tearing down his facade would damage their reputations as well, since they too fueled the myth of Wooden as the patron Saint of Basketball Holiness. All the time, Wooden cultivated his reputation for basketball piety and life-affirming goodness, writing books and spinning folksy maxims that he former (well paid) players would echo on TV and in print. He was a walking definition of the term "hypocrite".

I explained to them that this was by no means a secret. Several books and countless newspaper and magazine articles have covered this material many times. No one who was at UCLA at the time denies it. The man flat out cheated, end of story.

When confronted with the evidence, my co-workers simply shrugged their shoulders. "I don't care what he did," stated on of my friends, "that man could flat out coach." (BTW, you might want to check yourself when you state sentences with "I don't care what he did"). They made it clear to me that they found it unsettling that I would "deny" Wooden's greatness, even questioning my character.

I was flabbergasted; it was like living in bizzaro world. Is the Wooden myth this pervasive? Has it infected even UK fans to the point that we can't openly criticize a man who shameless cheated to win? I don't defend Eddie Sutton, and I'm sure as hell not going to defend John Wooden.

Thoughts on this matter?

I think he was a great coach and for the most part, his players would have run through a wall for him regardless of how much Sam Gilbert was paying them. I don't think he coordinated the cheating, he just turned a blind eye. No proof of this, just my opinion.

My beef is not with him - I greatly respect his coaching ability (though having some of the best players in NCAA history doesn't hurt). Like most other situations, I despise the media/press that simply chooses to ignore seemingly any shortcomings to perpetuate the myth of Holy Wooden, whereas Rupp is treated the exact opposite. They ignore facts such as coaching an African American while a high school coach, trying like hell to get Butch Beard and others, not to mention placing calls to eastern/northern schools to help KY HS black players he knew he couldn't recruit.

It's basically "Wooden - bastion of integrity" and "Rupp - vile racist". Both are far from true.
 
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Look at Wooden's record before Sam Gilbert and then look at it after Sam Gilbert. Sam made Wooden the great coach everyone likes to make him out to be.
 
Plain and simple: UCLA and Wooden won with players that should have been ineligible. Vacate the wins and titles. Remove the banners. The NCAA should do its job, even if the cheating was not discovered until later.

Besides UCLA and UNC, at least one, maybe more, Duke title should be voided. UMass and Memphis had titles and wins vacated retrospectively, with less, or in the case of Memphis absolutely no proof that the schools cheated. Why shouldn't UCLA, UNC and Duke face the same punishment?????
 
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