If not, who? I know it's a tallest midget question, but I'm still curious. St. John's been on the local news a lot with Slice moving on. Got me thinking about it. Missouri is another program I'm thinking of. Illinois? Oklahoma? Texas?
Is St. John's the best program without a title?
- Thread starter point1zerorock
- Start date
1. Illinois
2. Purdue
3. Iowa
4. Notre Dame
5. Minnesota
6. St.John's
according to all time Sagarin ratings.
2. Purdue
3. Iowa
4. Notre Dame
5. Minnesota
6. St.John's
according to all time Sagarin ratings.
Been working on my own question for those interested. And the winner is
1. Illinois - 1 Runner Up, 5 F4's, Nine E8's, 11 Sweet 16's, 30 tourney appears
2. Oklahoma - 2 Runner Ups, 4 F4's, 8 E8's, 9 Sweet 16's, 29 tourney appears
Followed by...
LSU - 4 Final 4's; six E8's, 9 Sweet 16's, 21 tourneys (surprised?)
Texas - 3 F4's, seven E8's, Ten Sweet 16's, 32 Tourneys
St. John's - 1 Runner Up; 2 F4's; six E8's; Nine Sweet 16's b/w 51-99; 29 Tourney appears
Other notables:
VA, WVA, Temple, Notre Dame
Am I leaving anyone out? Welcome to off-season topics, lol!!
1. Illinois - 1 Runner Up, 5 F4's, Nine E8's, 11 Sweet 16's, 30 tourney appears
2. Oklahoma - 2 Runner Ups, 4 F4's, 8 E8's, 9 Sweet 16's, 29 tourney appears
Followed by...
LSU - 4 Final 4's; six E8's, 9 Sweet 16's, 21 tourneys (surprised?)
Texas - 3 F4's, seven E8's, Ten Sweet 16's, 32 Tourneys
St. John's - 1 Runner Up; 2 F4's; six E8's; Nine Sweet 16's b/w 51-99; 29 Tourney appears
Other notables:
VA, WVA, Temple, Notre Dame
Am I leaving anyone out? Welcome to off-season topics, lol!!
Thanks for the input. Not sure how Sagarin can put Iowa and Minnesota in there. As far as post season success without a title (should have been more specific I guess), the teams I mentioned have faired much better. A case could be made for Purdue being up there I suppose. 1 R/U, 2 F4's, 4 E8's, 9 S16's, 27 tourneys.
I would at least include Iowa in the notables. The problem I have with any ratings that only focuses on NCAA tourney success is that the tourney has changed so much over the decades. In the early years you were in the elite 8 if you made the tourney. Conferences couldn't send more than 1 team until '75 or '76 so you had situations where many top ten ranked, potential title contenders, didn't even get in the tourney because they didn't win their conference. Under the system in place before '75 or '76 Duke wouldn't have even made the tourney this year and UConn wouldn't have made it the year before etc. I would like to a see a system similar to Sagarin that takes into account the overall average strength of a program combined with a system like yours which focuses on tourney success. All time, Purdue has probably been the best program in the Big Ten when you look at number of conference championships, records head to head etc. and yet they don't even rank as one of the best programs all time without a championship? If you're talking all time, I would have Butler ahead of Virginia especially if you're talking all time.
Yeah if you're looking at programs that have had the most tourney success without winning a title then that is far different than what Sagarin did. Sagarin pretty much did his yearly ratings retroactively going back to the first year of the tourney. I think he did give some extra credit for tourney games,. He basically just entered every game played into a computer. Minnesota was one of those teams really hurt by the period when the NCAA only took one team per conference. When Sagarin did his all time ratings the results looked crazy to many people but not to those who understood what it was designed to measure. Pat Forde even wrote an article about how the ratings didn't make sense and yet he admitted that the ratings looked accurate when looking at them broken down by decade. He couldn't seem to grasp the concept that the all time rankings were nothing more than an average of the ratings by decade or ratings by year. lol
I'm going with:
Illinois: 14th all-time in wins (.648) with one runner-up, five Final Fours, nine Elite Eights, and 30 NCAA Tournament appearances (tied for 15th all-time).
Temple: 5th all-time in wins (.644) with two Final Fours, seven Elite Eights, and 31 NCAA Tournament appearances (tied for 12th all-time).
Texas: 17th all-time in wins (.628) with three Final Fours, seven Elite Eights, and 32 NCAA Tournament appearances (11th all-time).
Notre Dame: 9th all-time in wins (.649) with one Final Four, six Elite Eights, and 34 NCAA Tournament appearances (tied for 9th all-time, which makes them the school with the most NCAA Tournament appearances that's never won an NCAA Tournament).
And St. John's.
This post was edited on 4/15 1:18 PM by Jon_D
Illinois: 14th all-time in wins (.648) with one runner-up, five Final Fours, nine Elite Eights, and 30 NCAA Tournament appearances (tied for 15th all-time).
Temple: 5th all-time in wins (.644) with two Final Fours, seven Elite Eights, and 31 NCAA Tournament appearances (tied for 12th all-time).
Texas: 17th all-time in wins (.628) with three Final Fours, seven Elite Eights, and 32 NCAA Tournament appearances (11th all-time).
Notre Dame: 9th all-time in wins (.649) with one Final Four, six Elite Eights, and 34 NCAA Tournament appearances (tied for 9th all-time, which makes them the school with the most NCAA Tournament appearances that's never won an NCAA Tournament).
And St. John's.
This post was edited on 4/15 1:18 PM by Jon_D
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
I always thought that St. John's would have been a far better option for Piturncoat after his time in Boston. A New York catholic at a New York catholic school. He could have put them back on the map.
I've never liked having all time wins or all time winning percentage as part of the equation without a way to adjust for strength of schedule. The all time difference in strength of schedule between Illinois and Temple for example would be like the difference between UK and UNLV this season.
All time tourney win percentage is a good proxy for that. The competition, especially before the 13-16 seeds were introduced was always good.
I think word got back to him that a lot of people at UK were very happy dealing with Tubby on a daily basis instead of him, and by God he was going to come to Louisville to stick it to those people. Sadly, that's the kind of thing that drives many of your best coaches and players such as Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan. Hell, one could argue that the main reason we have Cal is that he wanted to show Pitino he could beat him if the tables were turned from 96.
Illinois is the one that really stands out to me. Close proximity to some of the very best high school talent every season.
Just no excuse for them at all.
Just no excuse for them at all.
Other's have answered your question, but I have a little story for you about St John's. I worked for CBS several times in the 90's when sub regionals were held in Denver. Doing stats in one of the trailers. A producer turned to me at one point and told me to look up how many national titles St John's had. Ididn't have to and told him. I was right of course. Helped make an impression. I think of that just aboutevery time I hear about St Johns. Another bit of trivia most of you probably know. It was of courseSt John's who beat UK in Joe B's last game as a coach. In Denver. I was there. Amazing to think it was 30 years ago now. So you'll understand if all the talk about that program recently stirr's some memories.
additionally, Temple has played for 9 more seasons than Illinois. If I'm looking the all-time win list correctly, Temple has played longer (since 1895) than any team in the top 50 of all-time wins. By contrast, UCLA, 7th in all-time wins has played since 1920
Here is my thinking on a question like this, I have always used Sagarin ratings because I have found it to be a fairly accurate tool, by the end of the season, for measuring the strength of teams over the course of the season. If you look at the ratings this season it looks like this.
1. Kentucky
2. Duke
3. Wisconsin
4. Arizona
5. Virginia
Now Duke won the title but I don't think many unbiased people would look at the records of the teams over the couse of the season and rank Duke ahead of UK and I don't think anyone would rank Michigan State as one of the four best teams in the country this season or UConn as the best last season. So, when I try to decide which program is the best without a title then I look at which program has historically been the strongest without winning a title I use Sagarin all time rankings because if it looks fairly accurate on a yearly basis then an average of those years should give a fairly accurate view of the strength of a program over the course of a decade or all time, which in the case of Sagarin goes back to 1937.When you look at Sagarin rankings by decade I think it becomes pretty clear which programs have historically been some of the strongest without winning a title. Here are the top 5 programs by decade along with some of the programs mentioned in this thread as possibilities for "best program without a title" based on Sagarin top 40 by decade.
1940's ( actually goes back to 1937)
1. Oklahoma State
2. Kentucky
3. Illinois
4. Notre Dame
5. Indiana
7. Purdue
14.Minnesota
16.Iowa
21.St.John's
26.West Virginia
36.Temple
1950's
1. Kentucky
2. Illinois
3. Kansas State
4. Kansas
5. Indiana
8. Iowa
11.Minnesota
17. Notre Dame
28. Missouri
29. St.John's
30. Purdue
1960's
1. UCLA
2. Cincinnati
3. Duke
4. Ohio State
5. Kentucky
12. Illinois
17. St.John's
20. Iowa
33. West Virginia
34. Minnesota
1970's
1. UCLA
2. North Carolina
3. Marquette
4. Kentucky
5. Indiana
8. Notre Dame
10.Purdue
17.Minnesota
23.St.John's
33.Virginia
36.Missouri
39.Iowa
1980's
1. North Carolina
2. Georgetown
3. Indiana
4. Illinois
5. Kentucky
8. Iowa
9. Virginia
10.Purdue
12.Oklahoma
14.Missouri
18.St.John's
30.Notre Dame
34.Temple
39.Minnesota
1990's
1. Kentucky
2. Duke
3. North Carolina
4. Kansas
5. Arizona
11.Purdue
19.Temple
21.Minnesota
22.Iowa
26.Oklahoma
28.Virginia
29.Illinois
30.Missouri
32.St.John's
2000's
1 .Duke
2. Kansas
3. North Carolina
4. Florida
5. Michigan State
6. Illinois
12.Oklahoma
28.Notre Dame
37.Missouri
40.Purdue
These rankings only go to 2009 but I think Illinois is probably the best answer to the question unless you feel that Sagarin ratings are extremely inaccurate.
1. Kentucky
2. Duke
3. Wisconsin
4. Arizona
5. Virginia
Now Duke won the title but I don't think many unbiased people would look at the records of the teams over the couse of the season and rank Duke ahead of UK and I don't think anyone would rank Michigan State as one of the four best teams in the country this season or UConn as the best last season. So, when I try to decide which program is the best without a title then I look at which program has historically been the strongest without winning a title I use Sagarin all time rankings because if it looks fairly accurate on a yearly basis then an average of those years should give a fairly accurate view of the strength of a program over the course of a decade or all time, which in the case of Sagarin goes back to 1937.When you look at Sagarin rankings by decade I think it becomes pretty clear which programs have historically been some of the strongest without winning a title. Here are the top 5 programs by decade along with some of the programs mentioned in this thread as possibilities for "best program without a title" based on Sagarin top 40 by decade.
1940's ( actually goes back to 1937)
1. Oklahoma State
2. Kentucky
3. Illinois
4. Notre Dame
5. Indiana
7. Purdue
14.Minnesota
16.Iowa
21.St.John's
26.West Virginia
36.Temple
1950's
1. Kentucky
2. Illinois
3. Kansas State
4. Kansas
5. Indiana
8. Iowa
11.Minnesota
17. Notre Dame
28. Missouri
29. St.John's
30. Purdue
1960's
1. UCLA
2. Cincinnati
3. Duke
4. Ohio State
5. Kentucky
12. Illinois
17. St.John's
20. Iowa
33. West Virginia
34. Minnesota
1970's
1. UCLA
2. North Carolina
3. Marquette
4. Kentucky
5. Indiana
8. Notre Dame
10.Purdue
17.Minnesota
23.St.John's
33.Virginia
36.Missouri
39.Iowa
1980's
1. North Carolina
2. Georgetown
3. Indiana
4. Illinois
5. Kentucky
8. Iowa
9. Virginia
10.Purdue
12.Oklahoma
14.Missouri
18.St.John's
30.Notre Dame
34.Temple
39.Minnesota
1990's
1. Kentucky
2. Duke
3. North Carolina
4. Kansas
5. Arizona
11.Purdue
19.Temple
21.Minnesota
22.Iowa
26.Oklahoma
28.Virginia
29.Illinois
30.Missouri
32.St.John's
2000's
1 .Duke
2. Kansas
3. North Carolina
4. Florida
5. Michigan State
6. Illinois
12.Oklahoma
28.Notre Dame
37.Missouri
40.Purdue
These rankings only go to 2009 but I think Illinois is probably the best answer to the question unless you feel that Sagarin ratings are extremely inaccurate.
I heard him say something to the effect that St. John's used to not have dorms so they could give (pay) their players a certain amount for housing and board. Since most were from the city I assume they lived at home and just cashed the checks. Got harder to recruit when they had to live on campus and playing field was leveled.
St John's may deserve a special asterisk here. They won back to back NITs back when that was an honor in 1943 and 44. In fact, they beat us in 44. And Utah lost in that tournament, then got invited as an alternate to the NCAA and won that.
So either St John's has a "title", or they really haven't been as storied when the NCAA tourney was the true goal.
What's missing are some shooting star schools. Maybe not consistently great, but programs that have won and had really great stretches.
Western Kentucky, Houston, DePaul
So either St John's has a "title", or they really haven't been as storied when the NCAA tourney was the true goal.
What's missing are some shooting star schools. Maybe not consistently great, but programs that have won and had really great stretches.
Western Kentucky, Houston, DePaul
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