High School Rules Question

[cats2010]

In the Class 2A championship yesterday Mayfield punted the ball and the ball hit a New Catholic player and caromed into the endzone which Mayfield recovered and was awarded a Touchdown. Have heard some chatter that high school rules dictate that a touchback should have been the call instead as once the ball crosses the goal line it is a dead ball and ruled a touchback regardless if touched beforehand or not.

A buddy of mine saw the chatter on a high school message board and the overall consensus there was it should have been ruled a touchback but that just seems like a rather odd rule and one that that every official on the field missed.

Anyone have any insight on this? TIA

 

[vhcat70]

HS definitely has different rules in this area. No rules expert, but my understanding is that if a kicked ball - KO or P - hasn't been controlled before crossing GL it's a TB. However, a fumble or lateral (Ball previously controlled) that goes into EZ is live. I find BluegrassPreps site good for HS info.

 

[jauk11]

The officials blew it, definitely a touchback if it was as described, which isn't always the case. Surprising at any level, especially at a playoff game, even if only 2A. It is K's ball if first touched by R and recovered by K but cannot be advanced, but in this case it is still a kick and is dead once it crosses the goal line thus a touchback, the impetus was from the kick.

Not sure of the NCAA rule on that, and maybe that is the problem, maybe the crew was overqualified (ie, used to doing college ball), not sure if the rule is different there or not and not going to look it up but the differences in rules is a big source of problems for officials doing both levels.

An NFL official still owes me a six pack when he was sidelined for a while and did a high school game with our high school crew and insisted on an NFL enforcement for a holding call (only in the pregame discussion), funny thing is none of the other three on the crew would side with me against an NFL official.

 

[docholiday51]

The officials blew it, definitely a touchback if it was as described, which isn't always the case. Surprising at any level, especially at a playoff game, even if only 2A. It is K's ball if first touched by R and recovered by K but cannot be advanced, but in this case it is still a kick and is dead once it crosses the goal line thus a touchback, the impetus was from the kick.

Not sure of the NCAA rule on that, and maybe that is the problem, maybe the crew was overqualified (ie, used to doing college ball), not sure if the rule is different there or not and not going to look it up but the differences in rules is a big source of problems for officials doing both levels.

An NFL official still owes me a six pack when he was sidelined for a while and did a high school game with our high school crew and insisted on an NFL enforcement for a holding call (only in the pregame discussion), funny thing is none of the other three on the crew would side with me against an NFL official.

You are correct,had that happen once in a game, the coach of the receiving team blew a gasket.He didn't even believe us after the game when we showed him the rule book.That was several years ago,rules might have changed since then

 

[ktbug]

As described its a touchback.

 

[ktbug]

Looks like it was a bunch of western Kentuckians who called that game. Think they like Mayfield?

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

In the Class 2A championship yesterday Mayfield punted the ball and the ball hit a New Catholic player and caromed into the endzone which Mayfield recovered and was awarded a Touchdown. Have heard some chatter that high school rules dictate that a touchback should have been the call instead as once the ball crosses the goal line it is a dead ball and ruled a touchback regardless if touched beforehand or not.

A buddy of mine saw the chatter on a high school message board and the overall consensus there was it should have been ruled a touchback but that just seems like a rather odd rule and one that that every official on the field missed.

Anyone have any insight on this? TIA

I really can't say about Kentucy HS rules, but in Georgia once it touched the receiving team player it is no longer a kicked ball it becomes a fumbled or loose ball for anyone to recover. No different than a muffed punt. Receiving team covers in endzone its a S, kicking team its a TD, If it went in untouched by anyone touchback would be correct

 

[cats2010]

Thanks for the info guys, pretty interesting. The play did go off as I described. Punt first landed around the ten and started rolling toward the end zone. The NCC player was trying to get out of the way when the ball bounced up and hit him around the 2 or 3 and went into the end zone of which mayfield recovered in the scramble. Bluegrass preps is where the discussion was taking place and calling out the incorrect ruling. Gave mayfield a 14-0 lead at the time early 3rd and they went on to win 17-7.

 

[docholiday51]

Thanks for the info guys, pretty interesting. The play did go off as I described. Punt first landed around the ten and started rolling toward the end zone. The NCC player was trying to get out of the way when the ball bounced up and hit him around the 2 or 3 and went into the end zone of which mayfield recovered in the scramble. Bluegrass preps is where the discussion was taking place and calling out the incorrect ruling. Gave mayfield a 14-0 lead at the time early 3rd and they went on to win 17-7.

Surprising that a whole crew missed that,unless there has been a rule change any kick that breaks the plane of the goal line is a touchback,even if touched or muffed by the receiving team.If the kicking team recovers it in the field of play they gain possession

 

[RUPPsRevenge1]

Was there a new force created on the ball when it hit the player on the 2 or 3 yard line? A kick ends when a new force is applied to it. If it was ruled that was a new force and not simply the continuation of the kick, then it could be a touchdown.

 

[Tyblue22]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but they got the call correct. It is s touchdown. This is one of the most misunderstood rules in football. Here is how the rule works.....
1) Once the ball is punted, the returner has 3 main options: a) catch the ball and return it. b) signal a fair catch and catch it which downs the ball. c) get out of the way and let it go.

2) If the returner TOUCHES the ball, whether it hits the ground or the returner first, the result is a live ball and is treated like a fumble.

3) The punting/kicking team can NOT advance the live ball (the touched ball fumble), however, they CAN 'recover'/receive possession of the ball at the spot that they either: a) fall on it b) grab the ball and run with it but the play is then whistled dead and the kicking team would receive possession at the spot they recovered the ball.

4) If the returning team muffs the kick, or fails to gain possession, the punting team may not advance the ball if they recover it, they can only gain possession at the spot of recovery. However, if the returner gains possession and then fumbles it the punting team may advance the ball.

5) A touchback only occurs if a kicked ball crosses the goal line WITHOUT TOUCHING either team. OR if the punt returner catches the ball in the end zone and then drops to one knee.

NOTE: the player signaling for a fair catch isn’t obligated to catch the ball. His only obligation is not to touch the ball because if he does so without catching it, the loose ball is treated like a fumble, and the other team can recover it. After he touches it or loses control and the ball hits the ground, either team is allowed to recover the ball. The kicking team can recover the touched ball without advancing it, if the recovery/possession change happens at the spot of recovery without advancement. Should this spot be in the end zone the result is a touchdown by the punting team which recovers the touched/fumbled/lose ball in the end zone.

If the returner muffs a kick, or fails to gain possession, the punting team may not advance the ball if they recover it. If the returner gains possession and then fumbles, however, the punting team may advance the ball.

 

[WildCard]

Just to be clear, if the ball was never in possession by the receiving team (i.e., muffed catch or carom off a receiving team player) it is a touchback. However, if the ball was in possession (i.e., caught) by the receiving team and fumbled into the EZ it would be a TD for the kicking team. The difference is actual possession. Rules make a distinction between a muff and a fumble.

Peace

 

[Katwatcher]

Looks like it was a bunch of western Kentuckians who called that game. Think they like Mayfield?

They have won something like 11 or 12 titles, so I guess all of them like Mayfield Huh?

 

[ktbug]

It is a touch back even if the recving team bats it into the endzone. Becomes a penalty at that point, but the ball becomes dead as a touchback.
Grumpy, does Ga use NFHS rules? Most states do. Under NFHS it is a touchback.

TY, that isn't how HS works.

 

[cats2010]

the rule book I found online really did not make a distinction in the section I read. I would agree with Grumpy in that once a kicked ball is touched it is no longer kicked, rather Live (fumbled), but not possessed, and available for recovery by either team but not advanced. Not claiming to be right at all just find it rather fascinating that there does not appear to be a clear definition (at least that I can find) on what the rule states. I have heard emphatic claims on both sides of the issue however a touchback continues to be the overwhelming consensus..

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

It is a touch back even if the recving team bats it into the endzone. Becomes a penalty at that point, but the ball becomes dead as a touchback.
Grumpy, does Ga use NFHS rules? Most states do. Under NFHS it is a touchback.

TY, that isn't how HS works.

Yes I believe they do. But a batted ball and a fumbled ball are 2 different things. A player intentionally batting the ball makes it a dead ball,or draws a flag, a fumbled ball. But this play, the way it is described isn't a kicked ball play once it bounces off the player, it becomes nothing more than a normal running play with a fumble, its how I see it anyway, and if called any different I would likely get a flag thrown in my direction, unless I was the receiving team.

 

[docholiday51]

It is a touch back even if the recving team bats it into the endzone. Becomes a penalty at that point, but the ball becomes dead as a touchback.
Grumpy, does Ga use NFHS rules? Most states do. Under NFHS it is a touchback.

TY, that isn't how HS works.

I have been away from officiating for several years but when I was calling games we had this same play in a game we were working.Unless the rule has changed a muffed kick(by receiving team) that goes into the endzone is a touchback.

 

[docholiday51]

Yes I believe they do. But a batted ball and a fumbled ball are 2 different things. A player intentionally batting the ball makes it a dead ball,or draws a flag, a fumbled ball. But this play, the way it is described isn't a kicked ball play once it bounces off the player, it becomes nothing more than a normal running play with a fumble, its how I see it anyway, and if called any different I would likely get a flag thrown in my direction, unless I was the receiving team.

Grumpy,a ball can't be fumbled unless it is first possessed. A kicked ball that is touched by the receiving team beyond the line of scrimmage is a live ball unless it goes into the endzone where it becomes dead.

 

[RUPPsRevenge1]

A muff is a continuation of a kick and if it was only a muff and it went into the endzone, it would be the exact same as the kicker kicking it directly into the endzone (only speaking of the receiving teams end zone).

A kick behind the neutral zone may be advanced by either R or K. Meaning that if the ball was kicked and stayed behind the neutral zone, it can be advanced by either team, thus it would be a touchdown.

The high school rules state that a kick is a touchback when only when it is in the receivers endzone or When it is dead in the kickers end zone with no player possession (rule 6-3-2).

 

[cats2010]

I have been away from officiating for several years but when I was calling games we had this same play in a game we were working.Unless the rule has changed a muffed kick(by receiving team) that goes into the endzone is a touchback.

I agree that it's a touchback if the R team muffs the punt and the ball finds its way to the end zone, but does the R team also have to recover the muff? Or is ball automatically ruled dead once it crosses the goal line after the muff?

 

[RUPPsRevenge1]

Please read my post. It is not a touchback. The kick was behind the neutral zone. A recovery by R is a touchdown. Unless I'm reading the original post wrong. I thought the kicker kicked the ball and it bounced backwards into the endzone after hitting a player.

 

[docholiday51]

Please read my post. It is not a touchback. The kick was behind the neutral zone. A recovery by R is a touchdown.

Behind the neutral zone is behind the line of scrimmage,the only endzone in that case would be K's endzone,if R recovers there it is a touchdown.My understanding of the play in question is a ball in R's endzone

 

[docholiday51]

I agree that it's a touchback if the R team muffs the punt and the ball finds its way to the end zone, but does the R team also have to recover the muff? Or is ball automatically ruled dead once it crosses the goal line after the muff?

I believe it is dead when it crosses the goal line in R's endzone

 

[Blue_White_KY]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but they got the call correct. It is s touchdown. This is one of the most misunderstood rules in football. Here is how the rule works.....
1) Once the ball is punted, the returner has 3 main options: a) catch the ball and return it. b) signal a fair catch and catch it which downs the ball. c) get out of the way and let it go.

2) If the returner TOUCHES the ball, whether it hits the ground or the returner first, the result is a live ball and is treated like a fumble.

3) The punting/kicking team can NOT advance the live ball (the touched ball fumble), however, they CAN 'recover'/receive possession of the ball at the spot that they either: a) fall on it b) grab the ball and run with it but the play is then whistled dead and the kicking team would receive possession at the spot they recovered the ball.

4) If the returning team muffs the kick, or fails to gain possession, the punting team may not advance the ball if they recover it, they can only gain possession at the spot of recovery. However, if the returner gains possession and then fumbles it the punting team may advance the ball.

5) A touchback only occurs if a kicked ball crosses the goal line WITHOUT TOUCHING either team. OR if the punt returner catches the ball in the end zone and then drops to one knee.

NOTE: the player signaling for a fair catch isn’t obligated to catch the ball. His only obligation is not to touch the ball because if he does so without catching it, the loose ball is treated like a fumble, and the other team can recover it. After he touches it or loses control and the ball hits the ground, either team is allowed to recover the ball. The kicking team can recover the touched ball without advancing it, if the recovery/possession change happens at the spot of recovery without advancement. Should this spot be in the end zone the result is a touchdown by the punting team which recovers the touched/fumbled/lose ball in the end zone.

If the returner muffs a kick, or fails to gain possession, the punting team may not advance the ball if they recover it. If the returner gains possession and then fumbles, however, the punting team may advance the ball.

All this typing and your wrong.

A "kick" whether a kickoff or punt only ends when the ball is possessed or goes into the end zone. The punt was never possessed, thus the kick never ended Until it went into the end zone at which point it became a touchdown.

A muffed punt by the receiving team can be recovered by the punting team but can not be advanced.

 

[ktbug]

Yes I believe they do. But a batted ball and a fumbled ball are 2 different things. A player intentionally batting the ball makes it a dead ball,or draws a flag, a fumbled ball. But this play, the way it is described isn't a kicked ball play once it bounces off the player, it becomes nothing more than a normal running play with a fumble, its how I see it anyway, and if called anydifferent I would likely get a flag thrown in my direction, unless I was the receiving team.

They are different, but matter not on a kick,

According to the 2015 NFHS Casebook

A scrimmage kick by K1 comes to rest on R1's 6 yard line. R1 attempts to recover and advance, but muffs the kick so that it rolls into the end zone where: R1 downs it, or (b) R3 recovers and advances out of the end zone; or (c) K2 recovers the ball in the end zone. RULING: The kick became dead when the ball crossed the goal line. It is a touchback in all 3 instances, the kick had not ended, muffing does not constitute possession.

 

[docholiday51]

They are different, but matter not on a kick,

According to the 2015 NFHS Casebook

A scrimmage kick by K1 comes to rest on R1's 6 yard line. R1 attempts to recover and advance, but muffs the kick so that it rolls into the end zone where: R1 downs it, or (b) R3 recovers and advances out of the end zone; or (c) K2 recovers the ball in the end zone. RULING: The kick became dead when the ball crossed the goal line. It is a touchback in all 3 instances, the kick had not ended, muffing does not constitute possession.

Final answer ,Regis

 

[RUPPsRevenge1]

A muff is a continuation of a kick and if it was only a muff and it went into the endzone, it would be the exact same as the kicker kicking it directly into the endzone (only speaking of the receiving teams end zone).

The case book backs up what was mentioned above. A muff is not a new force and is considered a continuation of a kick. The kick doesn't end until it crosses the goaline, is possessed, goes out of bounds, or has a new force applied to it.

 

[BIGBLUEQ]

However, this is the rule that applies in this situation from the NFHS rule book: Rule 7-1 article 6:

While any free kick is in flight in or beyond the neutral zone to the receiver's goal line or any scrimmage kick (punt) is in flight beyond the neutral zone to the receivers goal line, K shall not
a. Touch the ball or R, unless blocked into the ball or R, to ward off a bloker, or;
b. Obstruct R's path to the ball
This prohibition applies even when no fair-catch signal is given, but it does not apply after a free kick has been touched by a receiver, or after a scrimmage kick has been touched by a receiver who was clearly beyond the neutral zone at the time of touching.
Exception: K may catch, touch, muff or bat a scrimmage kick in flight if no player of R is in position to catch the ball.

And rule 6-2 article 4:
Any K player may catch or recover a scrimmage kick while it is beyond the neutral zone, provided such kick has been touched by a receiver who was clearly beyond the neutral zone at the time of touching. Such touching is ignored if it is caused by K pushing or blocking R into contact with the ball or if it is caused by K batting or muffing the ball into R. Such catch or recovery by K beyond the neutral zone causes the ball to become dead.

However, the corresponding rule in 6-4 clearly states that: If the kick becomes dead in Rs endzone it is a touchback in all cases, unless a field goal is scored.

 

[jauk11]

Never a doubt it was a touchback as described, and good examples from the rule book to back it up.

You might keep that in mind the next time you are positive the refs robbed you (in this case they did, from ignorance of the rules and not on purpose I'm sure, a lot of you would have missed it also), and as I stated above there are a LOT of differences in the rules, particularly enforcement of penalties, at different levels, so the officials that enforced the same penalty differently in the college game on TV and at your local high school game may have both been right.