ADVERTISEMENT

Comparing our '80's violations and school remedies to hookergate

BigBlueDiehard

Sophomore
Sep 6, 2005
1,297
396
83
Everyone remembers the SI cover with "Kentucky's Shame" and rivals love to remind us that the cheating was so bad that we almost got the death penalty in 1989. Although I was a teenager at the time of the scandal and remember most of the details vividly, I thought it would be interesting to take another look at what exactly we were alleged to have done and compare that to the prostitution scandal taking place now at UofL.

What really stands out is that our alleged violations were small potatoes compared to what took place at Minardi Hall...certainly far less insidious and salacious. The other stark contrast was how the 2 schools responded to their respective situations and the actions they took to remedy the root causes of the problems.

Here's a snippet from an article covering our 1989 probation (also worth noting that this will be UofL's 2nd probation since our last):

Although the NCAA investigated a host of allegations during its 13-month inquiry, it found three major violations:

* Former assistant coach Dwane Casey sent cash to Mills and his father when the high school all-American was being recruited. The money was found in an opened air-express package in Los Angeles in April 1988, triggering the investigation that culminated in yesterday's announcement.
(My note: the discovery of the $1,000 in the Emery envelope in Los Angeles by an admitted fan of UCLA, who was also recruiting Chris Mills, was and is more than a little suspicious. In fact, Casey later successfully settled a multi-million dollar lawsuit against them and had his show-cause order rescinded by the NCAA.)

* Manuel "committed academic fraud by cheating" on a college entrance examination and was allowed to compete during the 1987-88 season, even though the school should have known he was ineligible.

* Casey demonstrated a "knowing and willful" effort to violate NCAA regulations and provided false information to investigators about his role in rules violations.

The NCAA Committee on Infractions also cited a number of less serious violations, such as recruits being provided with improper trips, housing and inducements such as free T-shirts.

Steve Morgan, the NCAA associate executive director in charge of enforcement, said the committee seriously considered banning Kentucky from regular-season play next season and perhaps the season after, as well as banning TV appearances for a second season.


Other possible penalties that were not imposed included a ban on all scholarships and a ban on off-campus recruiting.

"There were significant reductions . . . even though this is a major penalty," Morgan said.

The NCAA report said the penalties were softened because the university cooperated with investigators and took steps to correct some of the ongoing problems.

"While breakdowns occurred in the institution's control over the program, the university's president acted forcefully to uncover all relevant information in the case and to set a proper direction for the future of
Kentucky's athletics program
," the committee report said.


It also credited the school with appointing a new athletic director, C.M. Newton, and it cited the resignation of the coaching staff as reasons for leniency.

Meanwhile, Teflon Tom and Pitino keep whistling past the graveyard as they continue to rake in millions while their basketball program is going down in flames.
 
Thanks for posting. That almost seems quaint compared to what went on at Minardi Hall and elsewhere for 4 years. I'd wager we don't even know the half of it.
 
Casey still says that it was a setup.

He won a lawsuit as well...

Sutton was a fool and there was an obvious "lack of institutional control" but as far as that money in the video case goes...

Who would tape up a case full of money well enough that it wouldn't "pop open"?

When was the last time you had a package like that "pop open"?

The university president used it as an OPPORTUNITY to clean house at UK.

UofL...

They ABSOLUTELY have a "lack of institutional control" and they will try every way in the world to keep the people responsible for it in place.

Pitino might leave, but the problem is the very dirty President Ramsey and the "win at all costs" Tom Jurich.

Those 2 ain't goin nowhere!
 
Get out of town OP. In the 1st case, an Emery Freight package "fell open" in California under circumstances that would not satisfy rules for chain of custody for evidence in an American court. The accused Kentucky assistant coach passed a proper lie detector test, and went on to a distinguished NBA coaching career. But the local newspaper acted out its poor relationship with our school by piling on with its own "investigation". UK President David Roselle, anxious to force out a powerful athletics director he didn't personally like, voluntarily accepted harsh NCAA penalties for Kentucky, then immediately left for the 1st good east coast job he could find. There may have been validity to reports about occasional "hundred dollar handshakes" from coal mining executives, but those were nothing compared to what we now know about athlete recruitment at Southern Cal, UCLA, Notre Dame, Miami, Auburn at the time. Compare that to the present mess at UL, where the coaching staff has been paying prostitutes to have carnal relations with teenage athletes, and now covering it up in a conspiracy to impede a criminal Grand Jury investigation. How could any reasonable person compare these 2 stories?
 
  • Like
Reactions: awf
One of the worst things about roselle was how he treated the fans. When a UK fan would ask if we were going to defend ourselves against the charges, the first thing out of if mouth was, "if by defend, you mean cover up". Total bs by him. I never heard even one UK fan advocate for a cover up.

Eric Manuel was the only player really hurt by the scandal. I'm sure someone cheated but I don't believe it was him.

He could write a tell all book that would be a best seller if he actually knew something. And since he hasn't, that makes me think he doesn't know.
 
Get out of town OP. In the 1st case, an Emery Freight package "fell open" in California under circumstances that would not satisfy rules for chain of custody for evidence in an American court. The accused Kentucky assistant coach passed a proper lie detector test, and went on to a distinguished NBA coaching career. But the local newspaper acted out its poor relationship with our school by piling on with its own "investigation". UK President David Roselle, anxious to force out a powerful athletics director he didn't personally like, voluntarily accepted harsh NCAA penalties for Kentucky, then immediately left for the 1st good east coast job he could find. There may have been validity to reports about occasional "hundred dollar handshakes" from coal mining executives, but those were nothing compared to what we now know about athlete recruitment at Southern Cal, UCLA, Notre Dame, Miami, Auburn at the time. Compare that to the present mess at UL, where the coaching staff has been paying prostitutes to have carnal relations with teenage athletes, and now covering it up in a conspiracy to impede a criminal Grand Jury investigation. How could any reasonable person compare these 2 stories?
Over your head...
 
Best come back EVER.
I'm glad you have your "foot stomp" to keep you happy.
 
Get out of town OP. In the 1st case, an Emery Freight package "fell open" in California under circumstances that would not satisfy rules for chain of custody for evidence in an American court. The accused Kentucky assistant coach passed a proper lie detector test, and went on to a distinguished NBA coaching career. But the local newspaper acted out its poor relationship with our school by piling on with its own "investigation". UK President David Roselle, anxious to force out a powerful athletics director he didn't personally like, voluntarily accepted harsh NCAA penalties for Kentucky, then immediately left for the 1st good east coast job he could find. There may have been validity to reports about occasional "hundred dollar handshakes" from coal mining executives, but those were nothing compared to what we now know about athlete recruitment at Southern Cal, UCLA, Notre Dame, Miami, Auburn at the time. Compare that to the present mess at UL, where the coaching staff has been paying prostitutes to have carnal relations with teenage athletes, and now covering it up in a conspiracy to impede a criminal Grand Jury investigation. How could any reasonable person compare these 2 stories?

Thanks for agreeing with me (I think).
 
The NCAA report said the penalties were softened because the university cooperated with investigators and took steps to correct some of the ongoing problems.

"While breakdowns occurred in the institution's control over the program, the university's president acted forcefully to uncover all relevant information in the case and to set a proper direction for the future of
Kentucky's athletics program
," the committee report said.


It also credited the school with appointing a new athletic director, C.M. Newton, and it cited the resignation of the coaching staff as reasons for leniency.

Compare that to UofL and UNC whose university presidents go out of their way to either not hold any coach or AD accountable (both), or who actively cover up and pretend that no rule breaking took place, so please look the other way while they self-impose NOTHING (UNC).
 
UL's transgressions are far worse...as the cheating helped them win a national title and go to a couple Final Fours. Our cheating in the mid 80s did not really amount to much on the court success. And the sins themselves are much worse for uL.
 
I think you are goofy for starting a thread at this point in time about a Kentucky compliance problem from the 1980s. Let our friends to the west have their 15 minutes of fame.

Then it would seem you missed the point of my post, which was largely the same as the point of your reply to my post.

We constantly hear from rival fans how nefarious our cheating was and continue to carry that label over 25 years later, and what we were alleged to have done was a mere drop in the bucket when contrasted with what has taken place at UofL.

When removing the primary violation that got us fried by the NCAA (the $1,000 in the Emery envelope that miraculously popped open), you're left with Eric Manuel copying someone's answers on his ACT (that we may have arranged for him), some free T-shirts, and some $50 handshakes. I believe it's almost certain that we were breaking NCAA rules in the '80's, but that was largely the culture of NCAA Division I athletics at the time (sort of their steroid era) and what we did pales in comparison to the current UofL scandal. I would therefore expect the UofL punishment to be harsher than ours from that time...especially when considering that our penalty was softened because we cleaned house while those in charge at UofL during this time of incredible corruption and lack of institutional control still remain firmly entrenched. The UofL administration seems to be trying to save themselves and their giant paychecks by sacrificing their players on this year's team with the voluntary post-season ban...which tells you all you need to know about the environment and culture there that bred these types of insidious violations to begin with.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cats2010
Wow, what an excellent post to think about OP. I do expect, despite the defensive behavior here, that it was likely true that money was being passed around. As a student, with a couple basketball players in several of my classes what I can say is there were some preferential things definitely going on at that time. But, where people say other programs were doing it, as an excuse, well that is equally true, right or wrong, it was the norm of that era. Plus, if it was completely false the UK administration would have fought it vehemently. But, whether true or false, it was treated as true which is the excellent point of the comparison of what was done. The events that happened at UL are way worse. You have kids under 21 with strippers, sex, drinking, etc. I would estimate that was way more than $1,000 in today's dollars. And, whether others can't be proven to have known, it should not matter at all. The institutional control issue comes to play.

Therefore, anything less than what Kentucky endured as a consequence would be criminal. And,it should be more.
 
Ok ok you win...this is like explaining advanced calculus to my 6 year old. Whatever. Have a nice day.
Every 1 of your posts has had this same condescending know it all tone. This time, you say I am a 6 year old. You would have us believe that you are smarter, better informed. But I see a small person hiding behind a username, with a childish ax to grind.
 
Thanks for posting. That almost seems quaint compared to what went on at Minardi Hall and elsewhere for 4 years. I'd wager we don't even know the half of it.

Exactly! And you know that his has to include football players as well.
 
I do expect, despite the defensive behavior here, that it was likely true that money was being passed around. As a student, with a couple basketball players in several of my classes what I can say is there were some preferential things definitely going on at that time. .
Call it defensive behavior if you think that covers you. At the time, it was going on everywhere. Published reports with interviews of participants have shown that private jets were available to fly Notre Dame football players all over the country with girls onboard. Reggie Bush had to give back a Heisman Trophy because of incredible illegal benefits at Southern Cal. SMU was given the death penalty because the school resisted reforms despite multiple, major violations. Auburn has been placed on major sanctions multiple times with money and girls involved. Charlie Pell and Galen Hall were fired and banned from coaching for paying Florida players. The NCAA forced Alabama to get rid of boosters who were paying players. That's the tip of the iceberg. There have been infractions at Kentucky too. Fran Curci and Hal Mumme got caught. The Casey investigation won our local newspaper a Pultizer, but it was biased from a factual point of view. Nothing has happened at Kentucky that compares to the earlier examples I mentioned. I don't condone it, but some people on this thread have lost their sense of proportion. Kentucky fired Mumme and Ivy, then hired a new athletics director to clean it up. Please tell me when Louisville cleaned out their house. Even with a Grand Jury seated, they are still covering up. Kentucky's compliance problems were 2 decades in the past. This is Louisville's time for legal and public scrutiny. Nothing that has happened at Kentucky even compares to Katina Powell scandal. Anyone here, including you, who tries to compare Kentucky to Louisville is smearing Kentucky at a time when the public conversation ought to be about Louisville, and I have to wonder about your motive.
 
Every 1 of your posts has had this same condescending know it all tone. You would have us believe you are smarter...
Wow. If there was ever a pot meet kettle statement
And NO, I said this was like trying to teach a six year old.
Good day. (Ignore)
 
Maybe Roselle had ulterior motives, but he did demonstrate integrity by his actions. Something we haven't seen at UL or UNCheat.
 
Call it defensive behavior if you think that covers you. At the time, it was going on everywhere. Published reports with interviews of participants have shown that private jets were available to fly Notre Dame football players all over the country with girls onboard. Reggie Bush had to give back a Heisman Trophy because of incredible illegal benefits at Southern Cal. SMU was given the death penalty because the school resisted reforms despite multiple, major violations. Auburn has been placed on major sanctions multiple times with money and girls involved. Charlie Pell and Galen Hall were fired and banned from coaching for paying Florida players. The NCAA forced Alabama to get rid of boosters who were paying players. That's the tip of the iceberg. There have been infractions at Kentucky too. Fran Curci and Hal Mumme got caught. The Casey investigation won our local newspaper a Pultizer, but it was biased from a factual point of view. Nothing has happened at Kentucky that compares to the earlier examples I mentioned. I don't condone it, but some people on this thread have lost their sense of proportion. Kentucky fired Mumme and Ivy, then hired a new athletics director to clean it up. Please tell me when Louisville cleaned out their house. Even with a Grand Jury seated, they are still covering up. Kentucky's compliance problems were 2 decades in the past. This is Louisville's time for legal and public scrutiny. Nothing that has happened at Kentucky even compares to Katina Powell scandal. Anyone here, including you, who tries to compare Kentucky to Louisville is smearing Kentucky at a time when the public conversation ought to be about Louisville, and I have to wonder about your motive.

I'm not sure who you're arguing with here. Everyone seems to be in agreement with what you're saying in this post. Cheating was almost the standard in that era. Louisville's transgressions are far worse and it's completely lame and transparent that they have taken ZERO steps to clean house and address the problems at their root.
 
Casey still says that it was a setup.

He won a lawsuit as well...

Sutton was a fool and there was an obvious "lack of institutional control" but as far as that money in the video case goes...

Who would tape up a case full of money well enough that it wouldn't "pop open"?

When was the last time you had a package like that "pop open"?

The university president used it as an OPPORTUNITY to clean house at UK.

UofL...

They ABSOLUTELY have a "lack of institutional control" and they will try every way in the world to keep the people responsible for it in place.

Pitino might leave, but the problem is the very dirty President Ramsey and the "win at all costs" Tom Jurich.

Those 2 ain't goin nowhere!

Casey won (settled to his satisfaction) a lawsuit. I have not read his complaint, but I suspect it had something to do with a contract and the fact that Emory revealed the contents of the package. The second thought is defamation, but if Emory offers its clients confidentiality in its services, Casey was damaged by that breach. Someone here might know more about the specifics.

In short, if not defamation, the victory for Casey did not prove his innocence.
 
Last edited:
Then it would seem you missed the point of my post, which was largely the same as the point of your reply to my post.

We constantly hear from rival fans how nefarious our cheating was and continue to carry that label over 25 years later, and what we were alleged to have done was a mere drop in the bucket when contrasted with what has taken place at UofL.

When removing the primary violation that got us fried by the NCAA (the $1,000 in the Emery envelope that miraculously popped open), you're left with Eric Manuel copying someone's answers on his ACT (that we may have arranged for him), some free T-shirts, and some $50 handshakes. I believe it's almost certain that we were breaking NCAA rules in the '80's, but that was largely the culture of NCAA Division I athletics at the time (sort of their steroid era) and what we did pales in comparison to the current UofL scandal. I would therefore expect the UofL punishment to be harsher than ours from that time...especially when considering that our penalty was softened because we cleaned house while those in charge at UofL during this time of incredible corruption and lack of institutional control still remain firmly entrenched. The UofL administration seems to be trying to save themselves and their giant paychecks by sacrificing their players on this year's team with the voluntary post-season ban...which tells you all you need to know about the environment and culture there that bred these types of insidious violations to begin with.
Just stop. Trying to explain to him is useless. He is right, you are wrong.
Very good post OP
 
I'm not sure who you're arguing with here. Everyone seems to be in agreement with what you're saying in this post. Cheating was almost the standard in that era. Louisville's transgressions are far worse and it's completely lame and transparent that they have taken ZERO steps to clean house and address the problems at their root.
Not arguing with anyone except the lame guy who chose for no reason to attack me. My other comments are just a recital of publicly known history for anyone who wants to compare Kentucky to Louisville.
 
Casey won (settled to his satisfaction) a lawsuit. I have not read his complaint, but I suspect it had something to do with a contract and the fact that Emory revealed the contents of the package. The second thought is defamation, but if Emory offers its clients confidentiality in its services, Casey was damaged by that breach. Someone here might know more about the specifics.

In short, if not defamation, the victory for Casey did not prove his innocence.
I'm not insinuating that UK wasn't dirty at the time.

I'm saying that instead of fighting it and trying to find a way to lessen the severity of the punishment, UK just copped to everything and fired EVERYBODY in the program.

As a fan, I'd RATHER clean house and change the culture.

No fan, be it UofL or UK wants their program to cheat and honestly, with the support that both programs have and the facilities and such, there's no excuse for it.

The reason that all this happened at UofL is because of the culture there and MAINLY because Jurich has castrated the media in Louisville to the point that they'd literally COVER UP wrong doing before they'd report it.
 
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT