Already stated in my first post I didn't agree with public money being spent on stadiums.
John Oliver - Stadiums
- Thread starter Free_Salato_Blue
- Start date
Already stated in my first post I didn't agree with public money being spent on stadiums.
One can hope...
Need to ride that All Star Game momentum into something worthwhile for the city. Hopefully the the other enormous mistake being paid for right now (streetcar) doesn't kill this.
Yeah. A transit route connecting all the restaurants and hotels to the biggest entertainment/sports district in the city is a stupid idea. Let alone the fact that every city that has built one has seen at least a 2-1 return on investment in terms of urban rehab and increased property taxes. Yep. Stupid wasteful idea.
Try not listening to WLW, It'll do you some good.
Try not listening to WLW, It'll do you some good.
Last edited:
What the hell are you even talking about? When was the last time you were in Cincinnati?
"All the restaurants and hotels". You think a streetcar is going to entice someone to come downtown for a Reds game, pay to park, eat close to "All the restaurants and hotels" and then wait ten minutes for a streetcar rather than walking 5 blocks from the square?
Or no, all the development that was already underway in OTR is really going to take off. That's worth over one hundred million dollars.
Or wait, people are going to drive downtown to park in OTR so they can then pay to ride the streetcar down to the stadiums? That's worth over one hundred million dollars? Rather than people just paying to park at the largest underground parking structure in the US which happens to be connected to the stadium and under a few restaurants and bars?
I would wager a substantial amount of internet dollars that you 2-1 ROI number is complete and utter horseshit. And when applied to the facts of Cincinnati years down the road will be laughable.
Too bad the streetcar wasn't done in time for the All Star Game. The city could have really impressed everyone instead of just being the best host for the ASG the MLB has seen.
"All the restaurants and hotels". You think a streetcar is going to entice someone to come downtown for a Reds game, pay to park, eat close to "All the restaurants and hotels" and then wait ten minutes for a streetcar rather than walking 5 blocks from the square?
Or no, all the development that was already underway in OTR is really going to take off. That's worth over one hundred million dollars.
Or wait, people are going to drive downtown to park in OTR so they can then pay to ride the streetcar down to the stadiums? That's worth over one hundred million dollars? Rather than people just paying to park at the largest underground parking structure in the US which happens to be connected to the stadium and under a few restaurants and bars?
I would wager a substantial amount of internet dollars that you 2-1 ROI number is complete and utter horseshit. And when applied to the facts of Cincinnati years down the road will be laughable.
Too bad the streetcar wasn't done in time for the All Star Game. The city could have really impressed everyone instead of just being the best host for the ASG the MLB has seen.
I have only been gone from Cincinnati for two years and was a member of Cincinnatians for Progress when I was there. I helped campaign against the two ballot initiatives that were designed to kill the project (and all rail transit) and attended several council meetings in support of the project. Those initiatives and the mayor's "pause" were the reason the project was delayed.
I love how you throw out that the 2-1 ratio is utter horseshit. Care to back it up? The 2008 UC study estimated that Cincinnati would likely see over $300 million economic payoff. Not bad if you ask me. Portland saw somewhere in the realm of a 4-1 ROI IIRC on their initial streetcar line. http://portlandtransport.com/archives/2006/05/the_economic_de_1.html
In fact, one could make a great argument that the streetcar has already spurred more development, especially north of Liberty in OTR. But, I'm sure the guys on WLW (Kenwood's station) haven't told you that.
What development has the streetcar spurred north of Liberty?
You made the uncited claim of 2-1. I think the uncited claim is horseshit. Do you have a cite for an actual study showing:
the fact that every city that has built one has seen at least a 2-1 return on investment in terms of urban rehab and increased property taxes.
I couldn't even tell you who currently hosts each hour on WLW. But if your entire argument relies upon "you shouldn't listen to WLW, but should believe a random poster on the internet who can't even back up his claims with the entire internet at his fingertips" it makes me pretty comfortable with my position.
You made the uncited claim of 2-1. I think the uncited claim is horseshit. Do you have a cite for an actual study showing:
the fact that every city that has built one has seen at least a 2-1 return on investment in terms of urban rehab and increased property taxes.
I couldn't even tell you who currently hosts each hour on WLW. But if your entire argument relies upon "you shouldn't listen to WLW, but should believe a random poster on the internet who can't even back up his claims with the entire internet at his fingertips" it makes me pretty comfortable with my position.
Off hand here's the Model Group who is putting $19 million into rehabbing properties around Findlay Market (LINK). 3CDC is also leading the effort to rehab north of Liberty as they have with most of OTR.
Portland Transit showing ROI on streetcar projects from 2006 (LINK)
Streetcar study commissioned by the city (LINK)
Portland Transit showing ROI on streetcar projects from 2006 (LINK)
Streetcar study commissioned by the city (LINK)
Want me as a taxpayer to foot the bill for your stadium, fine. I want a 50% discount on all tickets to your games. Sooner or later the bubble is going to burst on sports. You can't keep building these crazy expensive stadiums and then demand a new one 10-20 years later. Sooner or later the money is just not going to be there to support the foolishness and greed.
::: LURK ::: 
Not sure what was everyone's take on the Jim Gray project. They really need to fix that big hole in the ground a few blocks away that was promised by another local developer.
Last edited:
The streetcar is worthless to talk about at this point. A decade old report based on surveys, or a report commissioned by the Mallory administration isn't going to change that. Just sit back and watch.
It's going to be a financial disaster. Development in OTR and at the Bank was happening regardless of the streetcar. It's a toy certain people wanted, for various reasons. Some think it makes the city "progressive" whatever the hell your definition of that is. Some had direct financial interests.
Hopefully you come back to Cincinnati in a year, pay to park at the Banks or another garage downtown, wait for the streetcar and get to ride your street car around the beautiful area north of Liberty, hop back in your car and drive home.
It's going to be a financial disaster. Development in OTR and at the Bank was happening regardless of the streetcar. It's a toy certain people wanted, for various reasons. Some think it makes the city "progressive" whatever the hell your definition of that is. Some had direct financial interests.
Hopefully you come back to Cincinnati in a year, pay to park at the Banks or another garage downtown, wait for the streetcar and get to ride your street car around the beautiful area north of Liberty, hop back in your car and drive home.
I love those renderings but I have two issues.
1. How do they pay for it? If it's via a sales tax abatement or property tax abatement, that might be okay. The public probably won't go for another stadium sales tax.
2. Who plays there? They probably missed the boat on getting UC to move there but if they can get an NHL team and steal the First Four from that shit hole in Dayton then that will help. I'd love to see a year when the NCAA tournament has a First Four in Cincinnati, Second/Third Rounds in Louisville/Columbus. Sweet 16/Regional Finals in Lex/Cleveland and the Final Four in Indianapolis.
If I move back I'll probably be living in OTR with one less car than I have now. If I move back and it's to Oakley, I'll go to OTR, park for $3-$5, eat at a brew pub or something like that. Ride the streetcar to the game and ride back for a nightcap.
Agree to disagree but evidence in other cities have shown that investments in rail transit whether it's a streetcar or light rail is a boon to the city.
![[cheers]](https://ct.yimg.com/mr/uploads/891/5628.gif "Cheers [cheers]")
Proponents always throw out mega figures about how much money new stadiums, pro teams, etc.... will generate for the community. One poster previously mentioned $300 M. That's fine and good, but how much of that $300 M is going to be returned to the average property owner; the average resident; the guy working 50 hours a week at his factory job just to put food on the table and a roof over the heads of his children?
Sure, someone benefits, but it's rarely the people that need the benefits most.
Sure, someone benefits, but it's rarely the people that need the benefits most.
Similar threads
