I don't follow recruiting much, just not enough time...

[NociHTTP]

But I love seeing all the posts of peoples' ideas for who they think Pope should go after It seemed before many were chasing stars, because it was well known that the former coach HAD to rely on some of the best raw title to go anywhere. But now I'm seeing all sorts of suggestions for who would best fit Pope's system. This is how you build teams. He's going to have LOTS of guys staying multiple years, because it's going to take time for them to learn his system, and if you want much playing time in his system you have to be able to play well with others, share the ball (as he talked about today in the press conference). There will be open looks for everyone who's playing.

 

[M4CAT]

Have to admit, the Calipari era at first had me spoiled knowing we would get damn near anyone we wanted. It dipped for a few years and then got burned out with the freshmen roster turnover. I'm back onboard to following it closely again and taking nothing for granted. Will have to look down the rankings more for 3-4 year guys but I am sure Kentucky still gets their Burger Boys too. I am fine with that since Pope is committed to this place no longer being used as an NBA G-League affiliate.

 

[UKBrassowTipIN]

It won't take long to learn zoom, the difference is reading the options or seeing what the defense gives you out of it. That's the difference in his zoom compared to say Cal's version of zoom. Cal's usually just broke down after the first option.

 

[UKPopeVIII]

Have to admit, the Calipari era at first had me spoiled knowing we would get damn near anyone we wanted. It dipped for a few years and then got burned out with the freshmen roster turnover. I'm back onboard to following it closely again and taking nothing for granted. Will have to look down the rankings more for 3-4 year guys but I am sure Kentucky still gets their Burger Boys too. I am fine with that since Pope is committed to this place no longer being used as an NBA G-League affiliate.

Pope is going to recruiting more in the mold of Pitino. He’s going to find guys that fit his system as apposed to locating guys in the top 25 and making offers, which is really what Cal did. He used the national scouting services to do the work. I’m sure this saved him a ton of time because his system relied on talent and athleticism which is where they ranked the top 25 in each class.

Pope is Different in that he needs skilled players not necessarily overly talented ones. Those are sprinkled throughout the top 150.

 

[JC CATS]

Pope is going to recruiting more in the mold of Pitino. He’s going to find guys that fit his system as apposed to locating guys in the top 25 and making offers, which is really what Cal did. He used the national scouting services to do the work. I’m sure this saved him a ton of time because his system relied on talent and athleticism which is where they ranked the top 25 in each class.

Pope is Different in that he needs skilled players not necessarily overly talented ones. Those are sprinkled throughout the top 150.

Pitino recruited 5* guys, still does. https://stormthepaint.com/2023/03/23/st-johns-basketball-rick-pitino-recruiting/

 

[M4CAT]

Pope is going to recruiting more in the mold of Pitino. He’s going to find guys that fit his system as apposed to locating guys in the top 25 and making offers, which is really what Cal did. He used the national scouting services to do the work. I’m sure this saved him a ton of time because his system relied on talent and athleticism which is where they ranked the top 25 in each class.

Pope is Different in that he needs skilled players not necessarily overly talented ones. Those are sprinkled throughout the top 150.

Bit of a stretch to say Cal looked at the top 25 on sites like rivals to do his work. He is lazy but this is ridiculous. If that were true, then players like SGA & Herro outside of the top 25 would have never been here. Jamal Mashburn and Rodrick Rhodes were just a couple of Pitino's blue chip recruits at Kentucky. Pope isn't going to build rosters with all 5 stars but he will land his fair share over time. There will be transfers, 4 stars and high upside 3-star recruits like Hawkins & Burks to stabilize the roster over 3-4 years. People automatically assume recruiting to a system must mean you have to recruit talent down the ladder. I'm sure players will be lining up to play in Pope's high-scoring offense once he gets the ball rolling here.

Disclaimer *NOT A CAL DEFENSE* Just being honest.

 

[UKPopeVIII]

Bit of a stretch to say Cal looked at the top 25 on sites like rivals to do his work. He is lazy but this is ridiculous. If that were true, then players like SGA & Herro outside of the top 25 would have never been here. Jamal Mashburn and Rodrick Rhodes were just a couple of Pitino's blue chip recruits at Kentucky. Pope isn't going to build rosters with all 5 stars but he will land his fair share over time. There will be transfers, 4 stars and high upside 3-star recruits like Hawkins & Burks to stabilize the roster over 3-4 years. People automatically assume recruiting to a system must mean you have to recruit talent down the ladder. I'm sure players will be lining up to play in Pope's high-scoring offense once he gets the ball rolling here.

Disclaimer *NOT A CAL DEFENSE* Just being honest.

There are some examples of Calipari filling out his roster but he did take a lot of players ranked highly for a reason. He definitely used the scouting services 100%. I don’t think that’s all he did, as in literally all he did. But mainly Calipari was looking at NBA draft picks and those guys were already ranked based on projections inside of the top 25. It’s why we ended up with so many guys who didn’t produce inside of that category but still went on to the NBA draft or G league.

Not sure how this is not understood. Calipari was obviously looking at those list and making offers based off of the top 25. Many other coaches get much more involved in the 50-100 range than Calipari did at UK, even Duke.

 

[UKPopeVIII]

Pitino recruited 5* guys, still does. https://stormthepaint.com/2023/03/23/st-johns-basketball-rick-pitino-recruiting/

Of course he does, but nobody, not even Duke, is stuck on the top 25 the way Calipari was. He was obviously using the scouting systems to find NBA caliber talent which is projected talent and that’s why we ended up with so many the way we did. There’s nothing really controversial about it, he didn’t recruit based on need like others, he didn’t do much outside the top 50, he absolutely used scouting services which rank based on projection or we would have seen many more lower ranked players to fill rosters and needs.

One of the knocks on Calipari is we sometimes got stuck on this kind of thing instead of getting needs. And that’s because he wanted to showcase them and keep them coming. I will always believe it was a false choice, but alas, it’s over now anyway.

 

[M4CAT]

There are some examples of Calipari filling out his roster but he did take a lot of players ranked highly for a reason. He definitely used the scouting services 100%. I don’t think that’s all he did, as in literally all he did. But mainly Calipari was looking at NBA draft picks and those guys were already ranked based on projections inside of the top 25. It’s why we ended up with so many guys who didn’t produce inside of that category but still went on to the NBA draft or G league.

Not sure how this is not understood. Calipari was obviously looking at those list and making offers based off of the top 25. Many other coaches get much more involved in the 50-100 range than Calipari did at UK, even Duke.

You stated he relied on the recruiting services to do the work and you know that wasn't true. That is all I said. No one is arguing he built his teams with majority top 25-top 50 talent emphasizing the NBA and it is a broke system that doesn't work. Don't try to misconstrue the post.

 

[UKPopeVIII]

You stated he relied on the recruiting services to do the work and you know that wasn't true. That is all I said. No one is arguing he built his teams with majority top 25-top 50 talent emphasizing the NBA and it is a broke system that doesn't work. Don't try to misconstrue the post.

Nah, I think you’re taking the post totally out of context. Or it was worded poorly, but I wasn't
Giving it that much thought.

Pitino recruited all through the 150 range for need. Calipari does not do that. He definitely used the scouting services to evaluate based on NBA projections and not necessarily on needs. This is something that has never been controversial and has always been as issue with his teams. We’ve had rosters poorly constructed several times because of this issue

Now what you think or how you took it I don’t know. But he definitely did lean toward using those services which other coaches are more inclined to evaluate throughout the 150 range,
Like Pitino. Pitino never had a roster full of nothing but top 25 players. Even Duke recruited different and although similar, still based off need. No sir, Calipari did not. If you think he did we’ll agree to disagree.

 

[M4CAT]

Nah, I think you’re taking the post totally out of context. Or it was worded poorly, but I wasn't
Giving it that much thought.

Pitino recruited all through the 150 range for need. Calipari does not do that. He definitely used the scouting services to evaluate based on NBA projections and not necessarily on needs. This is something that has never been controversial and has always been as issue with his teams. We’ve had rosters poorly constructed several times because of this issue

Now what you think or how you took it I don’t know. But he definitely did lean toward using those services which other coaches are more inclined to evaluate throughout the 150 range,
Like Pitino. Pitino never had a roster full of nothing but top 25 players. I game Duke recruits based off need. No sir, Calipari did not. If you think he did we’ll agree to disagree.

Yes you did. You resorted to a straw man fallacy to make it seem like people are disagreeing that Calipari built his teams around the top freshman year after year. It also wouldn't explain adding players like Burks, Hart and Big Z late in the game who was on no ones radar this time last year.

 

[M4CAT]

Pitino recruited 5* guys, still does. https://stormthepaint.com/2023/03/23/st-johns-basketball-rick-pitino-recruiting/

Mashburn, Riddick, Rhodes, McCarty, Delk, Sheppard, Mercer, Walker, Turner & Myron Anthony were either Burger Boys or Parade All-Americans that Pitino had here in the 90s. Not to mention recruiting other ones who were still recruited by Pitino and did not come like T-Mac that went onto the NBA but further shows the level of recruits Pitino would still target. Pope will be able to recruit better here and will have our fair share.

 

[Jmeeks54thebest]

Yes you did. You resorted to a straw man fallacy to make it seem like people are disagreeing that Calipari built his teams around the top freshman year after year. It also wouldn't explain adding players like Burks, Hart and Big Z late in the game who was on no ones radar this time last year.

He added Burks, Hart, and Big Z late because he ran off Oscar for Dickinson and missed on not only Dickinson but other targets as well. None of them were his primary targets.

The poster you’re conversing with isn’t being hostile or using logical fallacies to prove a point. He’s simply stating his observations and opinions. At no point has he tried to prove you’re wrong and he’s right, in fact he even said agree to disagree.

His point is well taken, and other then what seems to be a desire to start a fight, your original point was well taken as well. Cal did scout a couple lower ranked five stars like SGA and Hero but let’s not pretend like he was scouting for the next Steph Curry. Other than a few guys who did seem well scouted I’d agree with pope that the majority of his recent classes were built off class rankings and not fit.

Relax a little bit man, it’s a good time to be a cat fan. And if you see me getting feisty, as I sometimes do, return the favor!

 

[M4CAT]

He added Burks, Hart, and Big Z late because he ran off Oscar for Dickinson and missed on not only Dickinson but other targets as well. None of them were his primary targets.

The poster you’re conversing with isn’t being hostile or using logical fallacies to prove a point. He’s simply stating his observations and opinions. At no point has he tried to prove you’re wrong and he’s right, in fact he even said agree to disagree.

His point is well taken, and other then what seems to be a desire to start a fight, your original point was well taken as well. Cal did scout a couple lower ranked five stars like SGA and Hero but let’s not pretend like he was scouting for the next Steph Curry. Other than a few guys who did seem well scouted I’d agree with pope that the majority of his recent classes were built off class rankings and not fit.

Relax a little bit man, it’s a good time to be a cat fan. And if you see me getting feisty, as I sometimes do, return the favor!

I wasn't being hostile either. There was no cussing nor name calling. Firmly disagreeing and calling out the flaws in his argument is not being hostile. Yes, my post was being spun in a way it shouldn't. At multiple points I acknowledged his stance Cal targets the best players but disagreed that he opens up rivals to let the experts rank players and go from there. Players like Lou Roe, Camby, DaJuan Sr were around before this place was. I realize that is your opinion why those players were added but if you don't give a coach credit for filling out a roster that late then that isn't really fair. It wasn't just last year. I can point back to the time he added both Murray and Humphries late in the game in 2015.

 

[Jmeeks54thebest]

I wasn't being hostile either. There was no cussing nor name calling. Firmly disagreeing and calling out the flaws in his argument is not being hostile. Yes, my post was being spun in a way it shouldn't. At multiple points I acknowledged his stance Cal targets the best players but disagreed that he opens up rivals to let the experts rank players and go from there. Players like Lou Roe, Camby, DaJuan Sr were around before this place was. I realize that is your opinion why those players were added but if you don't give a coach credit for filling out a roster that late then that isn't really fair. It wasn't just last year. I can point back to the time he added both Murray and Humphries late in the game in 2015.

The point you’re missing is we’re both saying you’re right lol. We’re saying he did both. He recruited guys by their rankings and not by fit and he also scouted some lower ranked guys or reclass options like Murray as well when he he didnt get his primary targets.

Two things can be true at once. I really don’t see any attempt by pope to misconstrue your argument. He even took fault himself and apologized if his post was poorly worded when you called him on it. Idk man. Hostility doesn’t always take the form of cussing or personal attacks. But I won’t berate the point. Have a good day.

 

[Fox2monk]

Have to admit, the Calipari era at first had me spoiled knowing we would get damn near anyone we wanted. It dipped for a few years and then got burned out with the freshmen roster turnover. I'm back onboard to following it closely again and taking nothing for granted. Will have to look down the rankings more for 3-4 year guys but I am sure Kentucky still gets their Burger Boys too. I am fine with that since Pope is committed to this place no longer being used as an NBA G-League affiliate.

It’s gonna take some getting used to that we won’t be landing everyone we offer anymore in the top 40. I know later on we didn’t land as many top 10 players but we always got 1 or 2.

 

[M4CAT]

The point you’re missing is we’re both saying you’re right lol. We’re saying he did both. He recruited guys by their rankings and not by fit and he also scouted some lower ranked guys or reclass options like Murray as well when he he didnt get his primary targets.

Two things can be true at once. I really don’t see any attempt by pope to misconstrue your argument. He even took fault himself and apologized if his post was poorly worded when you called him on it. Idk man. Hostility doesn’t always take the form of cussing or personal attacks. By I won’t berate the point. Have a good day.

Multiple times I acknowledged what he said that Calipari targets the best freshmen and it is a broke system in college basketball. I think that is the part he didn't understand and seemed to me to be misconstrued was his understanding I agreed with that point but not when he reiterated multiple times about Cal relying on a list by a recruiting service to do the analysis work and pick like it is a draft board without proof of this being his recruiting model. That is all I disagree on. Disagreement on the approach to finding kids but not disputing the process of roster construction with majority top 25 players.

The players I mentioned above (Roe, Wagner Sr, Camby) before the days of rivals have to account for something. Assistants are also out there doing the work especially ones like Chuck Martin that pulled in a Big Z. Of course there's Coach O too who's reputation speaks for itself as they attend AAU games and hit the recruiting trails etc. IMO, that is how Cal and the staff evaluates the talent pool with the recruits playing against better competition in AAU, take in some high school games instead of a recruiting service's list on who to go see. Assistants play a huge part in this evaluation process since it is impossible for one man to do it all adequately.

I think it really took off after that 2008 Memphis team which had a good core of 3-4 star recruits surrounded by Derrick Rose. His reputation was solidified from there on that he is an NBA player's first coach that succeeds off the best talent after that and made recruiting easier for him. I never disputed the notion that he did not always fill out rosters to team needs like this past year. I had an issue that this team did not have an elite rim protector in my eyes nor a defensive stopper that could have been anywhere from a MKG to a Liggins player. Thiero was to a degree. We'll have to agree to disagree on the hostility part.

 

[M4CAT]

It’s gonna take some getting used to that we won’t be landing everyone we offer anymore in the top 40. I know later on we didn’t land as many top 10 players but we always got 1 or 2.

The good thing about that is we won't be so reliant anymore needing to replace 4-5 freshmen every year to fill out the roster. Should be able to hold over several 3-4 year guys and I believe Pope will aggressive on the transfer portal to fill holes on the roster. I'm glad the days on the NBA farm system are over and don't have to recruit like that anymore.

 

[Fox2monk]

The good thing about that is we won't be so reliant anymore needing to replace 4-5 freshmen every year to fill out the roster. Should be able to hold over several 3-4 year guys and I believe Pope will aggressive on the transfer portal to fill holes on the roster. I'm glad the days on the NBA farm system are over and don't have to recruit like that anymore.

That is my hope for sure. To have solid talent that fits our system. Some who have a shot at the NBA but aren’t coveted enough to leave after 2 years. Use the portal and plug in high levels transfers and maybe recruit 1-2 really high level players a year that could be 1 and done to get some elite talent too.

 

[M4CAT]

That is my hope for sure. To have solid talent that fits our system. Some who have a shot at the NBA but aren’t coveted enough to leave after 2 years. Use the portal and plug in high levels transfers and maybe recruit 1-2 really high level players a year that could be 1 and done to get some elite talent too.

The level of recruits Pope will bring in is interesting to see since he is a unknown commodity for the most part with the restrictions on student-athletes that no doubt impacted who he could recruit. Just glad that whoever he does sign, one and done isn't going to be the culture here anymore. If we have one every now and then as most schools do since more caught on, I'll be okay with that. I think he will be able to find more talented players to fit his system like a 4-star Somto down the line would be better than the PF Traore at BYU. Hope this meeting goes well with him. Even in Pope's offense, we saw just how important having some muscle inside is. Especially after last year in the SEC. Couldn't even stop guards from scoring on our bigs. I don't expect that to be a problem again if that Drexel kid Williams or Somto comes in.

 

[Jmeeks54thebest]

Multiple times I acknowledged what he said that Calipari targets the best freshmen and it is a broke system in college basketball. I think that is the part he didn't understand and seemed to me to be misconstrued was his understanding I agreed with that point but not when he reiterated multiple times about Cal relying on a list by a recruiting service to do the analysis work and pick like it is a draft board without proof of this being his recruiting model. That is all I disagree on. Disagreement on the approach to finding kids but not disputing the process of roster construction with majority top 25 players.

The players I mentioned above (Roe, Wagner Sr, Camby) before the days of rivals have to account for something. Assistants are also out there doing the work especially ones like Chuck Martin that pulled in a Big Z. Of course there's Coach O too who's reputation speaks for itself as they attend AAU games and hit the recruiting trails etc. IMO, that is how Cal and the staff evaluates the talent pool with the recruits playing against better competition in AAU, take in some high school games instead of a recruiting service's list on who to go see. Assistants play a huge part in this evaluation process since it is impossible for one man to do it all adequately.

I think it really took off after that 2008 Memphis team which had a good core of 3-4 star recruits surrounded by Derrick Rose. His reputation was solidified from there on that he is an NBA player's first coach that succeeds off the best talent after that and made recruiting easier for him. I never disputed the notion that he did not always fill out rosters to team needs like this past year. I had an issue that this team did not have an elite rim protector in my eyes nor a defensive stopper that could have been anywhere from a MKG to a Liggins player. Thiero was to a degree. We'll have to agree to disagree on the hostility part.

Oh I don’t think he started relying on recruiting rankings until later in his career. I think he was a lot more of a well rounded, driven, and competitive coach at UMass, Memphis, and 09-15 UK. But I do think there’s credence to Pope’s argument at least beginning in 2019 where it seemed more and more we were getting guys for their ranking and not their fit. Shaedon Sharpe is an excellent example. Ashton Hagans another. I would argue the entire freshman class he was going to bring in this season was poorly constructed based on fit and after missing on top targets he just went the next highest rated guy other than JQ. I mean other than Perry (who he probably didn’t really want to recruit) he signed 6 brick layers according to their hs careers.

But I digress. Hostile may have been too strong. Defensive is probably more fitting. It sounded like you felt he was out to get you by any means necessary and I think he just wanted to chat and wasn’t as serious about you were. But that’s just my perspective, I’m sure there are plenty who would disagree with me.

 

[UKPopeVIII]

The point you’re missing is we’re both saying you’re right lol. We’re saying he did both. He recruited guys by their rankings and not by fit and he also scouted some lower ranked guys or reclass options like Murray as well when he he didnt get his primary targets.

Two things can be true at once. I really don’t see any attempt by pope to misconstrue your argument. He even took fault himself and apologized if his post was poorly worded when you called him on it. Idk man. Hostility doesn’t always take the form of cussing or personal attacks. By I won’t berate the point. Have a good day.

Thank you - pretty much what you’re saying. It appears Calipari would utilize those recruiting service list and the reason many believe it is because it’s too coincidental we would end up with a guy ranked 18th but it wasn’t a need, and it was usually due to what I consider an NBA draft projection. Of course nothing is 100% and like you said, there were times it would alter. But I personally believe he would use those services to gauge the players who had a high probability of being a draft pick which seems to be his reason for recruiting, not team needs. Why spend a ton of time scouting when you want a certain player who’s already been scouted in the top 25? I mean, the top 25 list is literally what he wants, measurables that fit a future draft pick.

Other coaches even coach K would flow down and you’d see a certain type of player ranked behind the 50’s or close to it. I’m sure there were times an evaluation like SGA would turn up and they’d look at it, but most players we recruited fit the mold of an early projected pick / lottery pick. Rivals projections are based off of futures too.

Fairly odd thing to get hung up on but he’s gone and that’s that. Pope is going to recruit based on playing system and need, which is something I’ve missed dealing with the choppy lineups without a rhythm. I was at the event yesterday and a few of us were actually talking about this very thing, but also saying we can’t just abandon those players either. Appreciate the feedback!

 

[Jmeeks54thebest]

Thank you - pretty much what you’re saying. It appears Calipari would utilize those recruiting service list and the reason many believe it is because it’s too coincidental we would end up with a guy ranked 18th but it wasn’t a need, and it was usually due to what I consider an NBA draft projection. Of course nothing is 100% and like you said, there were times it would alter. But I personally believe he would use those services to gauge the players who had a high probability of being a draft pick which seems to be his reason for recruiting, not team needs. Why spend a ton of time scouting when you want a certain player who’s already been scouted in the top 25? I mean, the top 25 list is literally what he wants, measurables that fit a future draft pick.

Other coaches even coach K would flow down and you’d see a certain type of player ranked behind the 50’s or close to it. I’m sure there were times an evaluation like SGA would turn up and they’d look at it, but most players we recruited fit the mold of an early projected pick / lottery pick. Rivals projections are based off of futures too.

Fairly odd thing to get hung up on but he’s gone and that’s that. Pope is going to recruit based on playing system and need, which is something I’ve missed dealing with the choppy lineups without a rhythm. I was at the event yesterday and a few of us were actually talking about this very thing, but also saying we can’t just abandon those players either. Appreciate the feedback!

With rare exceptions I think the most experienced player on the floor has to be the one who’s running your offense. Whether that’s a guard or a point forward, whatever. Now, if you can yank a Wall level burger kid than by all means we can pivot.

But I think it’d be a lot easier if your lead playmaker is 3-4 years in and knows all the plays on the first day of practice. Then you bring in a stud big man like (in a perfect world) an AD or KAT with a big time wing or scoring guard prospect and fill in the rest with portal returnees. Obviously it won’t settle to be that perfect but I’m hoping for something like that.

Cal certainly screwed the pooch on that. Had the ability to get that done but just seemed to want coast. As that other fellow pointed out he actually did develop guys at UMass and Memphis to supplement guys like Camby, Rose, and Evans. He just got lost in his own sauce.

 

[BC_Wader]

Have to admit, the Calipari era at first had me spoiled knowing we would get damn near anyone we wanted. It dipped for a few years and then got burned out with the freshmen roster turnover. I'm back onboard to following it closely again and taking nothing for granted. Will have to look down the rankings more for 3-4 year guys but I am sure Kentucky still gets their Burger Boys too. I am fine with that since Pope is committed to this place no longer being used as an NBA G-League affiliate.

Our Burger Boys got schooled way too many times to count by low star upperclassmen. It's going to be a great feeling watching players develop.

 

[Skyguyb27]

Bit of a stretch to say Cal looked at the top 25 on sites like rivals to do his work. He is lazy but this is ridiculous. If that were true, then players like SGA & Herro outside of the top 25 would have never been here. Jamal Mashburn and Rodrick Rhodes were just a couple of Pitino's blue chip recruits at Kentucky. Pope isn't going to build rosters with all 5 stars but he will land his fair share over time. There will be transfers, 4 stars and high upside 3-star recruits like Hawkins & Burks to stabilize the roster over 3-4 years. People automatically assume recruiting to a system must mean you have to recruit talent down the ladder. I'm sure players will be lining up to play in Pope's high-scoring offense once he gets the ball rolling here.

Disclaimer *NOT A CAL DEFENSE* Just being honest.

Such a Cal defender…..:crucify him ……😂😂😂

 

[JPFisher]

FWIW.

 

[JC CATS]

Of course he does, but nobody, not even Duke, is stuck on the top 25 the way Calipari was. He was obviously using the scouting systems to find NBA caliber talent which is projected talent and that’s why we ended up with so many the way we did. There’s nothing really controversial about it, he didn’t recruit based on need like others, he didn’t do much outside the top 50, he absolutely used scouting services which rank based on projection or we would have seen many more lower ranked players to fill rosters and needs.

One of the knocks on Calipari is we sometimes got stuck on this kind of thing instead of getting needs. And that’s because he wanted to showcase them and keep them coming. I will always believe it was a false choice, but alas, it’s over now anyway.

I think he often recruited the wrong 5* guys, athletic as hell, but not great basketball players, not all of them, but too many