Imagine buying the CyberTruck and all the clowns out there trying to break its windows because of Elon's stoopid video.
Anyone Here Have An Electric Car?
- Thread starter Chuckinden
- Start date
I like Elon Musk quite a bit. I think he's reasonable, innovative, and truly makes the world a better place. That said, the Cyber Truck is freaking ugly and anybody who says otherwise would be the same type of clown who would have fallen for one of those "emperor has no clothes" tricks.
Musk and I are close in age. When I see Elon's "truck", I see that dystopian rv that was on 70s Saturday morning tv when we were kids.
Three young scientists travel around the country in the 25th century after the world has been ravaged by pollution. In their hi-tech RV (called Ark II), they study the land and help out those in need.
"Whether you find yourself in a post-apocalyptic zombie wasteland or in Chicago, the Cybertruck is ready," said Elon Musk as he made the announcement.
Though Musk will not exit the Cybertruck, he has vowed to obey all traffic laws, promising to wait until the light turns green no matter how much machine gun fire he is taking.
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"according to the latest survey by Consumer Reports, which found that EVs from the 2021 through 2023 model years encountered nearly 80% more problems than did vehicles propelled by internal combustion engines."
finance.yahoo.com
Consumer Reports: Electric vehicles less reliable, on average, than conventional cars and trucks
Electric vehicles have proved far less reliable, on average, than gasoline-powered cars, trucks and SUVs, according to the latest survey by Consumer Reports, which found that EVs from the 2021 through 2023 model years encountered nearly 80% more problems than did vehicles propelled by internal...
Yeah this was a rushed technology. Should have been done over like 10-20 years instead of trying to force things to go all electric overnight. Connecticut just changed their minds on having a ban on gas powered vehicles. I'd bet they won't be the first. The auto manufacturers are also slowing things down on manufacturing them. It was a dumb idea for the government to try and force everyone to go all in with their green plan.
Note to self: Buy whatever but expect new car company's to have growing pains and new models from any car company to have reliability issues.
I am almost two weeks into leasing an M3. Some thoughts:
1.) I bought a wall charger ($500), but the Telsa-Certified Electrition wanted $1600 to install it. So, I would be in $2100 in ($58 a month) over the duration of the 3 year lease. I plan on charging the car once very two weeks. The ROI does not appear to be there, so I returned it.
There is a super charger less than a mile from my place. A full charge costs around $18. I have spent just under $30 at the supercharger for about 400 miles. It takes about a 1/2 hour to charge the car...whcih is no biggie. I watch YouTubeTV (Cats replays) on the car's display and play on my phone.
I dont think the savings over a gas powered car is going to be all that great.
2.) The car is amazing to drive. It is smooth, quiet, and fast. Imagine driving a golf cart on a newer roller coaster. Once you get the hang of it, your rarely need the brake. The headlights are incredibly bright, and the wipers are so cool. They turn on automatially, and adjust to the volume of rain.
3.) The door handles take some getting used to and you have to have the Tesla app running on your phone at all times to unlock the car. The rear view mirror is very small and the seats to do not adjust well for my wife who is maybe 5 ft tall.
4.) Trunk storage is ample. There are two "levels" Think about having a normal trunk with a spare tire. Instead of the spare tire, there is another tier of storage under the normal trunk. This is great for keeping bottles from rolling around.
5.) The sound system is awesome! No problem at all to set up Apple Music or Pandora. Apple Music is touch and go with starting automaitcally. I think this has to do with the car being stored under a stilted home, so the signal is not ideal.
So far...absolutely 0 regrets. I drove my other POS last night for the first time since buying the Tesla and the experience is night and day.
1.) I bought a wall charger ($500), but the Telsa-Certified Electrition wanted $1600 to install it. So, I would be in $2100 in ($58 a month) over the duration of the 3 year lease. I plan on charging the car once very two weeks. The ROI does not appear to be there, so I returned it.
There is a super charger less than a mile from my place. A full charge costs around $18. I have spent just under $30 at the supercharger for about 400 miles. It takes about a 1/2 hour to charge the car...whcih is no biggie. I watch YouTubeTV (Cats replays) on the car's display and play on my phone.
I dont think the savings over a gas powered car is going to be all that great.
2.) The car is amazing to drive. It is smooth, quiet, and fast. Imagine driving a golf cart on a newer roller coaster. Once you get the hang of it, your rarely need the brake. The headlights are incredibly bright, and the wipers are so cool. They turn on automatially, and adjust to the volume of rain.
3.) The door handles take some getting used to and you have to have the Tesla app running on your phone at all times to unlock the car. The rear view mirror is very small and the seats to do not adjust well for my wife who is maybe 5 ft tall.
4.) Trunk storage is ample. There are two "levels" Think about having a normal trunk with a spare tire. Instead of the spare tire, there is another tier of storage under the normal trunk. This is great for keeping bottles from rolling around.
5.) The sound system is awesome! No problem at all to set up Apple Music or Pandora. Apple Music is touch and go with starting automaitcally. I think this has to do with the car being stored under a stilted home, so the signal is not ideal.
So far...absolutely 0 regrets. I drove my other POS last night for the first time since buying the Tesla and the experience is night and day.
I’m 3 years into Tesla ownership, and I haven’t had:
1. oil changes
2. gas fill ups
3. maintenance or repairs
I highly recommend electric and not for the green aspect. It’s just an easier way to get around town.
1. oil changes
2. gas fill ups
3. maintenance or repairs
I highly recommend electric and not for the green aspect. It’s just an easier way to get around town.
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Couldn't the lack of oil changes/repairs be a negative? Like if I take my car for an oil change or tune up, they might spot a developing problem. Help you to fix something before it becomes a major problem. Are you having any kind of check ups on it? If not, you might be screwed if something breaks and you're not prepared for it. I've heard Tesla isn't known for reliability and costs substantially more to repair.
Valid point.
This is one of the factors in me leasing and holding onto my previous POS.
However, you also dont have to deal with the ineveitable upsells at the oil change places.
Only if I had an engine and a bunch of parts to potentially repair. There are no cylinder heads to crack, or rods to throw. It’s only a battery with an 8 years Tesla warranty.
It’s like owning a golf cart, there is nothing to monitor except the wheels and charging the battery.
At age 69 I still do all my family's cars "routine" maintenance. One of the reasons I bought my TESLA, there isn't much routine maintenance.
I have over 38K miles on mine or I should say my wife's. She's the one that drives it the vast majority of time. All I've done is bought tires about a month ago and added washer fluid only once. I'm not naive, but in my instance I haven't had any reliability issues...so far.
Unless you have a "trusted" mechanic, I would be leary of any recommendations for needing additional mechanical work and that only multiplies if you take your car to a stealer, er, I mean dealer.
That always pisses me off. Last year, I had my air filter replaced at my local Valvoline Oil center in Florida where I always go. Three months later at an oil change place in Tennessee, they tried to sell me another one. They did the same thing to my wife several years ago by trying to sell her some wiper blades less than 6 months after I had replaced them.
I just tell them what I want upfront. I just say that I need a change and that's it......no need to ask for the other things. I've been to 3-4 locations throughout the Bluegrass area.....never had an issue.
If you knew half of the shady shit that happens at the oil change places you'd start doing your own oil changes. If nothing else, be that person that stands at the window or behind the bay to watch.
I told him I had it replaced 3 months earlier, and he just paused, then said "oh, okay". Some of the chains like Jiffy Lube try to push stuff on you, but the Valvoline place in Fort Pierce has been great. I'm in and out usually in 15 minutes and they never try to sell other services to me.
I always say that I can put filters and wipers on myself and just do the oil. Nothing hard about changing those. Even tell my wife and kids not to get anything extra. I'll take care of it if needed. I imagine some kids and women (probably a lot of today's young men as well) get taken advantage of with those add ons. If you have the money and don't want to fool with it that's one thing, but they prey on the people that don't know any better.
So Westworld is our future and not Terminator. That makes me feel slightly better.
I haven’t had a chance to watch this yet, but here is Cammisa’s review of the Cybertruck.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L6WDq0V5oBg&pp=ygUSY2FtbWlzYSBjeWJlcnRydWNr
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L6WDq0V5oBg&pp=ygUSY2FtbWlzYSBjeWJlcnRydWNr
That 'report" was sponsored by several major oil companies and is a piece of garbage. It was funded by the Texas Public Policy group which was made up of Exxon, Mobil, Chevron and the Koch Brothers. To say their math is sketchy would be a massive understatement.
An easy thing to do is to take a look at the F-150 XLT vs the F-150 Lightning (F-150L) XLT. We have to look at the models with Super Crew cab and a 5.5 ft bed because that is the only option for the F-150L. Looking at the base models of both the F-150 MSRP is $48,950 while the F-150L is $54,995. If you qualify for it, the F-150L also is eligible for a $7500 rebate and starting next year that price comes off at the time of purchase which would take it down to $47,490.
From there is we compare fuel costs. Let's say you drive 10,000 miles a year. The F-150 get a 23 gallon tank, an EPA of 24 MPG and let's say gas is $3 a gallon as an average fuel price across the year. Basically that is going to cost you $1242 a year in fuel costs.
The F-150L is rated at 320 miles on a full battery, it takes 134 KW to charge it from zero to full, and let's say in Kentucky it averages out to .10 a kWH for the year. 10,000 miles is going to run you $419. So, $823 in annual fuel savings. Just to make the math simple, let's say that you also needed a couple of oil changes over the span of 10,000 miles. We round the cost of fuel and oil changes up to $1,000 in savings annually.
So, if you bought a F-150 Lightning with the federal tax rebate, you would save roughly $1500 when you bought the truck, and then you can tack on an extra $1000 a year in operating costs as well. That is also before any additional incentives or comparing options.
EVs are not for everyone, but if you are interested then do some basic research. And research doesn't mean going to some partisan website. You can get the basics for what you need on the car manufacturers site or a reputable car website like Edmunds. If you are looking to learn more about EVs then I would suggest a good starting place is insiedevs website and the Batteries Included YouTube channel. Both will certainly lean more pro-ev, but they are also very realistic and transparent that EVs are not for everyone and there are issues with them.
An easy thing to do is to take a look at the F-150 XLT vs the F-150 Lightning (F-150L) XLT. We have to look at the models with Super Crew cab and a 5.5 ft bed because that is the only option for the F-150L. Looking at the base models of both the F-150 MSRP is $48,950 while the F-150L is $54,995. If you qualify for it, the F-150L also is eligible for a $7500 rebate and starting next year that price comes off at the time of purchase which would take it down to $47,490.
From there is we compare fuel costs. Let's say you drive 10,000 miles a year. The F-150 get a 23 gallon tank, an EPA of 24 MPG and let's say gas is $3 a gallon as an average fuel price across the year. Basically that is going to cost you $1242 a year in fuel costs.
The F-150L is rated at 320 miles on a full battery, it takes 134 KW to charge it from zero to full, and let's say in Kentucky it averages out to .10 a kWH for the year. 10,000 miles is going to run you $419. So, $823 in annual fuel savings. Just to make the math simple, let's say that you also needed a couple of oil changes over the span of 10,000 miles. We round the cost of fuel and oil changes up to $1,000 in savings annually.
So, if you bought a F-150 Lightning with the federal tax rebate, you would save roughly $1500 when you bought the truck, and then you can tack on an extra $1000 a year in operating costs as well. That is also before any additional incentives or comparing options.
EVs are not for everyone, but if you are interested then do some basic research. And research doesn't mean going to some partisan website. You can get the basics for what you need on the car manufacturers site or a reputable car website like Edmunds. If you are looking to learn more about EVs then I would suggest a good starting place is insiedevs website and the Batteries Included YouTube channel. Both will certainly lean more pro-ev, but they are also very realistic and transparent that EVs are not for everyone and there are issues with them.
Three great things about having a Tesla that may not be obvious to most:
1. You can charge at home every night and never have to worry about going to get gas. The convenience of this is hard to quantify.
2. You can blow past any non EV on the road to get in front of other cars for turns, exits, etc. I don’t care about going super fast but I do care about pickup and it is much better than you can imagine.
3. Great tech - phone chargers right in front of you where you can see your phone screen while driving and charging. Walkway door locks. Watch Netflix while parked waiting on your wife or kids in a store. Those are just a few examples.
1. You can charge at home every night and never have to worry about going to get gas. The convenience of this is hard to quantify.
2. You can blow past any non EV on the road to get in front of other cars for turns, exits, etc. I don’t care about going super fast but I do care about pickup and it is much better than you can imagine.
3. Great tech - phone chargers right in front of you where you can see your phone screen while driving and charging. Walkway door locks. Watch Netflix while parked waiting on your wife or kids in a store. Those are just a few examples.
You forgot a few other costs for EV's. You are going to want a speedy home charger which will cost $2,000 or more especially if your wiring has to upgraded. EV's are much heavier and wear out tires faster. Insurance is higher on some EV's because the very expensive batteries are susceptible to damage in collisions. EV's depreciation is higher because of less demand compared to ICE models. Finally, you may have to replace those $10,000-$15,000 batteries if you keep it long enough. Many EV models don't even qualify for the tax breaks.
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I think you’re missing his broader point though, which is that the report was produced by an organization with a vested interest in portraying EVs in a negative light. The report also seemed designed for the purpose of creating an eye-catching headline number that would attract a lot of eyeballs. I’ve not read their methodology personally, but there is good reason to avoid taking their figures at face value without first digging into the details.
I’d also add that, depending upon what type of ICE vehicle you drive today, operating costs for an EV will be lower. They just will be.
I know for a fact that operating costs for me personally would go down quite a bit if I switched to an EV. I’ve driven M3s for the past 15+ years because I love driving them, but they are highly strung and require quite of bit of preventative maintenance to avoid major issues. Not only are things like oil changes and brakes more expensive, but I have to stay on top of drivetrain components like VANOS bolts, rear differential seals, etc. None of those types of components exist on an EV because the drivetrain is so much simpler.
And in terms of the batteries being expensive, if I were to switch to an EV, I could probably put the amount I save on maintenance each year into a savings account for any potential future battery issues and still come out ahead.
EVs aren’t perfect by any stretch and they aren’t for everyone (I won’t buy one personally until they can make a good driver’s car that handles well), but a lot of the negative stuff you read about them is not exactly unbiased either.
If they’re not for you, then drive what you want. But for a lot of people, they’re a good choice. I think my wife would love one.
It looks like an actual vehicle I would have drawn as a 3rd grader trying to draw a truck.
The upfront cost of EVs are significantly higher than comparable ICE vehicles. It will take nearly a decade for the lower annual operating difference to make up for the initial outlay. That is especially true if the model doesn't qualify for the full tax break or you make too much money to get any tax break at all. Most people just don't want an EV until they improve the product and lower the cost. You are seeing this trend across the nation. Good luck with your EV trade in value if demand remains this low.
EVs are running out of customers — and some dealers don't want them anymore
EVs from brands like Ford and Hyundai are piling up on dealer lots. Some dealers are saying enough is enough.
www.businessinsider.com
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I love it when pro Ev folks leave out charging and battery costs... especially when they try to convince others of biased research lol.
I just checked Autotrader to compare prices for a used Tesla Model 3 with less than 30k miles to the prices for a BMW 3 series with similar mileage. Prices were pretty much in the same range, so you can get an EV without it being significantly more.The upfront cost of EVs are significantly higher than comparable ICE vehicles. It will take nearly a decade for the lower annual operating difference to make up for the initial outlay. That is especially true if the model doesn't qualify for the full tax break or you make too much money to get any tax break at all. Most people just don't want an EV until they improve the product and lower the cost. You are seeing this trend across the nation. Good luck with your EV trade in value is demand remains this low.
EVs are running out of customers — and some dealers don't want them anymore
EVs from brands like Ford and Hyundai are piling up on dealer lots. Some dealers are saying enough is enough.
And as I said, the cost comparison depends upon what kind of ICE you would buy instead of an EV. For me, if I were to switch to a EV, I’m coming out ahead on an EV right away. An EV would save me a significant amount each year.
You are right that it depends on what cars you want to compare. Most foreign car makes and some domestic don't qualify for the full tax break because of where their batteries are sourced (China). Without the full tax break, the financial comparison isn't favorable for EV's in general.
Also, what about the people who can't afford a $40k+ new vehicle? They could get a brand new ICE (Civic or Corolla) for substantially less (about $24k). If you buy a used Tesla Model 3 of comparable price, it's probably going to be 6 years old with like 75k+ miles on it.
The batteries last between 100k and 200k miles (large difference). So let's say you get 150k. The average driver drives like 12k to 15k a year. So let's say 13.5k a year. That gives you only around 5 years at most before hitting 150k. That's not even the life of the loan before you possibly have to change the battery.
I'm seeing numbers like $13k to replace a Model 3 battery pack. Then throw in about $2k for the charger and your up to $15k added on to the price of what you paid without even counting charging costs. It's about $6k here for gas over 5 years for the ICE cars I mentioned. Throw in $300 a year for oil changes and that's $7.5k in 5 years. That's less than half of the expense of the EV with charging included. That doesn't even include the 50% more in insurance your paying.
So get a brand new car that only needs oil changes and maybe tires and spend about $32k over 5 years or a 6 year old Tesla and spend at least $40k over those 5 years (without insurance included). That's $8k savings. Even getting a new one with the tax credit, you will have to probably go over 6 or 7 years (after paying it off) before you might start saving any money compared to the ICE. You'll probably have to trade it in within a few years after that to not get in the danger zone of battery failure.
I'm guessing you will be at least $300 a month ahead (might be a lot more) with the ICE when factoring in loans, insurance, gas/charging, and maintenance until the loans are paid off. Even after that, I don't see the EV saving anything (charging and insurance difference are at least equal or more to gas and oil changes). You will only start seeing savings if the maintenance issues are worse on the ICE but Teslas aren't known for reliability.
If you’re comparing a Civic to a Model 3, then of course you can get the numbers to skew towards the Civic. A Model 3 is a luxury car and a Civic isn’t, so they’re not competing against each other. ICE competitors for the Model 3 would be things like a Mercedes C Class, BMW 3 Series and Audi A4.
Similarly, if you compare cost of ownership of a Mercedes to a Honda Civic, the Civic will come out ahead. Maintenance and repairs for a luxury car will always be more expensive compared to a Civic or Corolla. If folks don’t want to deal with that, then they should buy the Civic. It all comes down to your priorities and what you’re looking for in a car.
I'm just using that as an example because it is a compact car and that's what the Model 3 is considered. It is also the cheapest model that Tesla offers and no other EV brand really sells that well. Tesla is the best brand out there it seems and if you were forced to get an EV, you probably would get one of those.
There are plenty of good options of ICE cars that you aren't forced to get one that costs $40k+ to have good features and be extremely reliable. My wife has a 22 Toyota Camry XSE that's loaded with luxury features and still was like $10k less (maybe much more less than that depending on the options) than the Model 3 new. I'd take it over a Tesla Model 3 any day. Teslas are butt ugly imo and I don't care about racing around in one.
By the way, I'm driving around in a 12 year old 2011 KIA Sportage that's only got 79k miles on it and been paid off for a few years (bought it used in 2015). Just spending gas money, oil changes, and insurance on it. Only maintenance has been brakes and tires in 8+ years. So I'm really not planning on another vehicle for myself until it falls apart. Maybe by then the cost of Teslas will go down, batteries will get better, reliability will go up, and they won't be so butt ugly.
