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zone and threes

Soupbean

Senior
Jan 19, 2007
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sorry for bringing this up again as I know it's a beat to death subject and I know Cal is not going to change anytime soon but my head is going to explode if I hear one more person say a zone is just inviting more threes. Was listening to WLAP tonight and they said it twice and I almost drove into a pole.

Guys....this is not 1975 in junior pro league where zone means you have 5 guys standing on a piece of tape on the floor waiving their arms around the perimeter. An match up zone (preferably 3-2) makes it harder to get open threes than man because you have guys matching up on the perimeter. shooters are forced to step out further and shot over a good zone. How many threes did we give up yesterday in man? A bunch,and how many more wide open looks did they miss?

Man defense is hard and any breakdown leads to easy kick outs for open shots. A matchup zone stops that and is just man defense without the chasing, and fouling, fatigue and breakdowns. And the bonus is with a team with athleticism and length you get deflections than can lead to easy baskets. Thats without even extending and trapping (heaven forbid). It's hard to get deflections in man unless you can smother the dribbler and turn them around then overplay the passing lanes. How many times have you seen us do that?

Again I understand Cal is not going to change and I know why, and I know zone is not the answer to all and you have to be able to do both, but please stop with the fallacy that zones are more vulnerable to shooters.

I'll shut up about it now.
 
sorry for bringing this up again as I know it's a beat to death subject and I know Cal is not going to change anytime soon but my head is going to explode if I hear one more person say a zone is just inviting more threes. Was listening to WLAP tonight and they said it twice and I almost drove into a pole.

Guys....this is not 1975 in junior pro league where zone means you have 5 guys standing on a piece of tape on the floor waiving their arms around the perimeter. An match up zone (preferably 3-2) makes it harder to get open threes than man because you have guys matching up on the perimeter. shooters are forced to step out further and shot over a good zone. How many threes did we give up yesterday in man? A bunch,and how many more wide open looks did they miss?

Man defense is hard and any breakdown leads to easy kick outs for open shots. A matchup zone stops that and is just man defense without the chasing, and fouling, fatigue and breakdowns. And the bonus is with a team with athleticism and length you get deflections than can lead to easy baskets. Thats without even extending and trapping (heaven forbid). It's hard to get deflections in man unless you can smother the dribbler and turn them around then overplay the passing lanes. How many times have you seen us do that?

Again I understand Cal is not going to change and I know why, and I know zone is not the answer to all and you have to be able to do both, but please stop with the fallacy that zones are more vulnerable to shooters.

I'll shut up about it now.



I guess the concept is if you play a good man to man there shouldn’t be open 3’s. And with a zone, if there is good ball movement there’s more of a chance of getting an open shot. We need to improve our man to man for sure.
 
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sorry for bringing this up again as I know it's a beat to death subject and I know Cal is not going to change anytime soon but my head is going to explode if I hear one more person say a zone is just inviting more threes. Was listening to WLAP tonight and they said it twice and I almost drove into a pole.

Guys....this is not 1975 in junior pro league where zone means you have 5 guys standing on a piece of tape on the floor waiving their arms around the perimeter. An match up zone (preferably 3-2) makes it harder to get open threes than man because you have guys matching up on the perimeter. shooters are forced to step out further and shot over a good zone. How many threes did we give up yesterday in man? A bunch,and how many more wide open looks did they miss?

Man defense is hard and any breakdown leads to easy kick outs for open shots. A matchup zone stops that and is just man defense without the chasing, and fouling, fatigue and breakdowns. And the bonus is with a team with athleticism and length you get deflections than can lead to easy baskets. Thats without even extending and trapping (heaven forbid). It's hard to get deflections in man unless you can smother the dribbler and turn them around then overplay the passing lanes. How many times have you seen us do that?

Again I understand Cal is not going to change and I know why, and I know zone is not the answer to all and you have to be able to do both, but please stop with the fallacy that zones are more vulnerable to shooters.

I'll shut up about it now.
Cal hates zone but he'll be playing more of it this year despite what he still says. Barbee talked him into practicing zone because of the makeup of this team.
 
Cal hates zone but he'll be playing more of it this year despite what he still says. Barbee talked him into practicing zone because of the makeup of this team.




Cal has said that Barbee is his zone teaching coach.
 
sorry for bringing this up again as I know it's a beat to death subject and I know Cal is not going to change anytime soon but my head is going to explode if I hear one more person say a zone is just inviting more threes. Was listening to WLAP tonight and they said it twice and I almost drove into a pole.

Guys....this is not 1975 in junior pro league where zone means you have 5 guys standing on a piece of tape on the floor waiving their arms around the perimeter. An match up zone (preferably 3-2) makes it harder to get open threes than man because you have guys matching up on the perimeter. shooters are forced to step out further and shot over a good zone. How many threes did we give up yesterday in man? A bunch,and how many more wide open looks did they miss?

Man defense is hard and any breakdown leads to easy kick outs for open shots. A matchup zone stops that and is just man defense without the chasing, and fouling, fatigue and breakdowns. And the bonus is with a team with athleticism and length you get deflections than can lead to easy baskets. Thats without even extending and trapping (heaven forbid). It's hard to get deflections in man unless you can smother the dribbler and turn them around then overplay the passing lanes. How many times have you seen us do that?

Again I understand Cal is not going to change and I know why, and I know zone is not the answer to all and you have to be able to do both, but please stop with the fallacy that zones are more vulnerable to shooters.

I'll shut up about it now.

These guys haven’t learned to stay in front of their man, rotate, move their feet instead of reaching, etc when playing man to man. How is it that playing zone is going to make those skills magically appear, particularly a matchup. That’s almost like taking their weaknesses and emphasizing them.

And zones are more vulnerable to a skilled passing and shooting team unless the defending team is VERY skilled defensively. We can’t stay in front of a dribbler.

We have a lot of folks over the top with zones because they worked in church league or high school. That’s not where we compete. We need to learn. We don’t need a box of bandaids.
 
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These guys haven’t learned to stay in front of their man, rotate, move their feet instead of reaching, etc when playing man to man. How is it that playing zone is going to make those skills magically appear, particularly a matchup. That’s almost like taking their weaknesses and emphasizing them.

And zones are more vulnerable to a skilled passing and shooting team unless the defending team is VERY skilled defensively. We can’t stay in front of a dribbler.

We have a lot of folks over the top with zones because they worked in church league or high school. That’s not where we compete. We need to learn. We don’t need a box of bandaids.
What are you talking about? You mean you can't see the difference between chasing a penetrating dribbler though screen vs. just covering him in your area? You match up to prevent the outside shot first and if they penetrate there's help waiting with much rotation. If they penetrate and kick there is coverage on the kickout as well.
The weakness of both is being broken down by penetration but in zone the rest of the defense is not moved out of position near as much as in when every body shifts to help and theres' huge gaps created just by the first breakdown . . . which unfortunately happens almost every possession.

The vulnerability of the zone is the middle and midrange shots but I'll make the other guys beat me from there with difficult two pointers rather than layups or easy looks from three, not to mention the fouls.
 
Still just find it hard to believe how many wins Syracuse has gotten over the years. How lucky is Coach Boeheim that he never had to coach against a team that could shoot the 3.
 
I guess the concept is if you play a good man to man there shouldn’t be open 3’s. And with a zone, if there is good ball movement there’s more of a chance of getting an open shot. We need to improve our man to man for sure.
I agree Poetax, but the problem is man is just much harder to play period with todays ball skills (crossover, cupping etc) there is a lot more and easy ball movement in man pnce you bread down the first defender causing everybody else to have to move. And again with an active zone with length it's not easy at all to move the ball effectively, see Utah Valley St. With length its hard to move the ball quickly because your forcing lob passes over the top usually. Unless you use the ball fake and dribble to work in and out then that can be a worry, but again if I'm running them inside the 3 point line I've won the first battle. Now my rim protectors are in position to make them make some hard twos.
 
Let me say again, I agree 100% that there is nothing better than a real good man to man defense especially with overplay that can shut offenses down and create turnovers, but it' s just hard to get 5 guys to be able to do that. Even if 4 are scrapping and hustling to cover their man, it just takes one to slack off and all that work is for nothing. And again with the way today players are able to use the dribble with cross overs, hesitation, etc I think your fighting a losing battle asking them to do so for 40 minutes and your taking the much harder approach. Let this set of Cats learn to play an aggressive extended trapping zone and they come alive IMO. They'll play harder because they will get more reward for their effort in stops and turnovers.
 
The NBA banned the zone because it slowed the opponent offense when properly played. Pros are pretty good players.............
The NBA wanted high scores at that time.
 
What are you talking about? You mean you can't see the difference between chasing a penetrating dribbler though screen vs. just covering him in your area? You match up to prevent the outside shot first and if they penetrate there's help waiting with much rotation. If they penetrate and kick there is coverage on the kickout as well.
The weakness of both is being broken down by penetration but in zone the rest of the defense is not moved out of position near as much as in when every body shifts to help and theres' huge gaps created just by the first breakdown . . . which unfortunately happens almost every possession.

The vulnerability of the zone is the middle and midrange shots but I'll make the other guys beat me from there with difficult two pointers rather than layups or easy looks from three, not to mention the fouls.

LOL. I don't think you understand where our gaps are. Our defenders can't stay in the path of the ball handler and you want to play a match up zone. What you do to deal with that issue is you work on guarding your defender. What you are proposing is band aids. The result is going to be a strategy that plays to our current weakness.

Not that it matters, Cal is never going to play any significant amount of zone. End result, you are wasting key strokes.
 
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