Why would Kansas sign mostly 4-star freshmen?
- Thread starter G-PIP
- Start date
In today's college basketball you have to get and retain players for 3 or 4 years. The difference between most 4 and 5 stars can be publicity. Most 5 stars have ego's, people whispering in their ear, and are going to jump to the NBA after one year. Most 4 stars are more grounded, coming willing to work and learn, hopefully value an college education and will grow into a team.
You're right, absolutely why Self had success with each of these players and devised a roster primed to win a title. But here's the thing, how many of those guys would've stuck around if the transfer portal was as active 4 years ago as it has been the last 2 years?
You mentioned several 4-year players that were a part of that team. Seriously, how many of them would've stuck around if the portal was what it is today. Another poster already pointed out how many of their recent recruits have hit the portal these last few recruiting classes.
I just wonder if he'll be able to win another title if he tries to use that same format. The portal taketh, and the portal taketh A LOT
Last 4 seasons. 13 5-stars recruited.
They are trying to sign 5-stars. Just haven't been successful.
Right, but again, where did the OP say Self doesn't recruit 5* kids? Look at the thread title, he said the word "mostly".
If you're going to recruit one-and-done kids with the idea that they need to be ready to compete right away, you better get top shelf 5* kids. Looks to me like Self is doing what you should do if winning in college is your goal.
Now look at Calipari. It's crazy.
14 offers in 2020
14 offers in 2021
9 offers in 2022
10 offers in 2023
47 offers to 5-stars in the past 4 seasons. 11 have signed.
14 offers in 2020
14 offers in 2021
9 offers in 2022
10 offers in 2023
47 offers to 5-stars in the past 4 seasons. 11 have signed.
Yeah, if you look at those offers, they pretty much offer at least one, and usually 2 of the top 3 guys at each position every year and usually the top player at each position. It's worked out well for him, but he has 100% tried to get the top guys and just hasn't had success.
Last 4 seasons. 13 5-stars recruited.
They are trying to sign 5-stars. Just haven't been successful.
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Not sure why you keep ending your posts with "lol". You're the one that is wrong.
Again, the OP didn't say KU ONLY recruits 4 stars, he said "mostly".
Of course KU tried to recruit Zion, why wouldn't they? Adding Zion to a team of 4* juniors and seniors and you have a title contender. Isn't that the goal?
lol
Duke:
9 offers in 2020
7 offers in 2021
7 offers in 2022
8 offers in 2023
Very high. Still not on Coach Cal's pace.
Duke has signed 15 of the 31 they've offered. Very successful at recruiting. Just haven't won the title with any of them.
9 offers in 2020
7 offers in 2021
7 offers in 2022
8 offers in 2023
Very high. Still not on Coach Cal's pace.
Duke has signed 15 of the 31 they've offered. Very successful at recruiting. Just haven't won the title with any of them.
Yeah, they had players transfer out recently, but they're still putting out veteran lineups with multiple players that have developed within their program.
Right, but Self isn't just throwing a blanket over every kid that has 5 stars next to his name. He's offereing the top shelf kids, ones that are polished and can contribute right away.
Last 4 seasons. 13 5-stars recruited.
They are trying to sign 5-stars. Just haven't been successful.
To me, that is the best way to build a roster. Take the kids you have developed, add the best, most polished, top shelf 5* kids and add a transfer or two.
This is what Cal should be doing, but he's not.
Transfer portal have been the main players. 4-star recruits have been the supporting cast & then mostly transferring from Kanas to another school afterwards.
Here is the problem with what the OP says...over the past 5 years, Kansas has blown away the competition with 5 star offers:
5 star offers by year according to 247 sports over the past 5 years:
2019
KU - 23 offers
UK - 13 offers
Duke - 9 offers
UNC - 11 offers
2020
KU - 12 offers
UK - 14 offers
Duke - 9 offers
UNC - 11 offers
2021
KU - 13 offers
UK - 14 offers
Duke - 7 offers
UNC - 9 offers
2022
KU - 18 offers
UK - 9 offers
Duke - 7 offers
UNC - 8 offers
2023
KU - 16 offers
UK - 10 offers
Duke - 8 offers
UNC - 6 offers
OVERALL
KU - 82 offers
UK - 60 offers
UNC - 45 offers
Duke - 40 offers
Most of Self's recruits eventually transfer as he pulls from portal over them.
Take away 2022 & Self is very underwhelming with 3-4 times the 1st & 2nd round exits from the tourney that Cal has.
Right, but in the thread title, he said "mostly signs", not "offers".
I'm sure Self realizes he's not going to get every player he offers, he's probably only going to get 1 or 2, if that, but if those guys are top shelf kids, he has a winner and when you look at KU's performance on the court over the last 10 years, it proves what he's doing, is working.
Exactly, Kansas doesn't have some grand formula, they want as many 5 stars as possible just like UK. If they don't then they do a very good job at filling out the roster, better than UK.
KU had a few early exits back 10-13 years ago, but in the modern era, they most certainly have not had more 1st and 2nd round exits.
You said "3-4 times the 1st & 2nd round exits", that's hilarious considering Cal didn't even make the tournament in 2021, lost in the 1st round in '22 and lost in the 2nd round in '23. So, by your math, that means KU has lost in the first or 2nd round 9-12 times the last 3 years. Do you want to go ahead and redo your figures???
They have been outperforming us head to head, in the regular season, in conference play, in the all time wins race and in the NCAAT.
I'm not sure what you're watching, but it’s not what the rest of us are watching.
Except you’re the one that is wrong. Read the freaking thread title. The OP didn't say anything about how many 4 and 5 star kids they 'offered' and he didn't say anything about Self ONLY offering 4* kids, he literally said "… mostly signs 4* kids".
I'm not sure why this is so hard for so many people to understand.
The premise of the conversation is around him wanting 4 star guys because they stick around longer, wait their turn, etc. The OP wrote in his post, "So, for the last few years why have they been focusing on players not ranked as high and often talented projectable 4-star recruits". In fact, he really wants 5 star guys by the amount that he has offered, he has just had issues getting them. Now, it's worked out in his favor, but the OP's point was that he has been focusing on 4 stars when he truly hasn't.
Self has:
-19 NCAA tournament appearances
-2 National Championships: 2008, 2022
-4 final 4's in 19 seasons at KU
**2018, 2022 most recent
-Lost 1st game: 2 times
**2005, 2006
-Lost 2nd game: 6 times
2010, 2014, 2015, 2019, 2021, 2023
**8 of his 19 tournament appearances at Kansas he has lost the 1st or 2nd game.
So, I'll ask you what you've asked me:what have you been watching?
Self winning it all in 2022 changes "perception".
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That speaks to how bad the culture is in the UK BB program. As a result of Calipari, it's all about instant gratification in the hope the fives stars will help cover Cal's lack of ability to develop players over time. Bill Self recruits kids to his system and prepares them to succeed.
In 2020 Cal had the number 1 class with 2 5* and 4 4*, on paper it was the perfect blend of players, we all know how that turned out. Cal also signed what many thought was the top portal center in Sarr. I don't think there is any magic formula, I guarantee Kansas would have taken that UK class all day and traded their class with UK 100 out of 100 times.
First of all, Self wasn't coaching in the NCAAT this year, so their 2nd round loss isn't on him.
That brings his total down to 7 total 1st or 2nd round losses since 2005.
If we use the 2009-10 season (Cal's first year here), Self has a total of 5 first weekend exits (no first round losses and no missed tournaments).
In that same time frame, Cal has 1 first round exit, one 2nd round exit, one NIT and one historically bad season where he only won 9 games and couldn't even qualify for the CBI tournament. That's 4 first weekent exits/NCAAT/NIT misses.
In what world does 5 = "3 to 4 times more" than 4???
And I'll add a very obvious comment, Self has yet to miss the NCAAT. I would take 5 first weekend exits over 2 missed NCAAT's, a first round loss to a 15 seed and a 2nd round loss all day long.
Just admit you greatly exaggerated and were way off, we can move on once you do so.
Yeah, the difference is, those four 4* players were being counted on to produce right away, at schools like KU, Baylor, 'Nova etc… , they are brought in to develop and eventually become top notch college basketball players.
Who's better, Jalen Wilson in year 4, or Devin Askew as a freshman? Askew was rated higher in HS, but which player did more for his team? Which coach's plan worked out better?
The 4 stars weren't really supposed to be that heavily relied on, Jackson was clearly better than expected (which is good) and Ware and Fletcher barely played, now Askew was a fringe 4/5 star and clearly he should not have played but Clarke getting hurt derailed his plan to let him run the point and we had Mintz but Cal was very stubborn in playing Askew, but nevertheless Cal's recruiting formula was excellent on paper that year. You should of had 4 4 stars coming back in 2022.
You're telling me going into the 2021-22 season 3 final 4's since 2004 & 1 national championship, 7 early exits as a #1 & 2 seed would be celebrated by you & UK fans..lol.
Cal has 4 final 4's, 1 national championship, 3 Elite 8's since 2010 & UK fans are ready to fire him...but you'd celebrate Self going into 2021-2022 season. Not even Kansas fans were celebrating him. Several were calling for change.
Outside of the covid season & 2012-13 when their best player on a thin team blew his knee out with 10 games...Cal has had teams capable of making a run.
In 11 tournament appearances at UK Cal has made it to at least the Elite 8, 7 times. 7 out of 11. That's better than any current coach.
Over the same period Self advanced to at least Elite 8, 6 times out of 13 tournaments. Stop making Self out to be John Wooden like. Good grief!
And...since 2015 Self has advanced it Elite 8 - 4 times.
Cal has advanced to Elite 8 - 3 times since 2015.
2022 was the first time Self has advanced to the Elite 8 since 2018. Cal's last was 2019.
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Signing multi year players and spending the Nil money on a few big time players a year is a strategy. Circling your few blue chips with solid players may or not payoff but it sure beats playing craps in the portal every year.
Personally Id rather have a solid core of veteran players and a few big time recruits vs all new all the time strategy.
Personally Id rather have a solid core of veteran players and a few big time recruits vs all new all the time strategy.
Grace, I don’t know which recruiting strategy is the best, and I think we can all find find things in our coaches that frustrate us at times. That said, I don’t know any real KU fans that were calling for a coaching change to replace Coach Self.
As far as his record is concerned, he has coached 18 NCAA tournaments as the KU head coach.
- 18 NCAA tournaments coached
- 9 Elite 8 appearances
- 4 Final Four appearances
- 2 National Championships
- The Covid year they were the overall #1 seed. Not they would have made it out of the first weekend, but is was a great year, with great potential to make a deep run.
- Won the conference championship like 17 times
- Won the conference tournament championship like 9 times.
Would it be nice to have a couple more Final Four appearances or another national championship? Absolutely, but like him or not, his level of consistency is unbelievable. And during his time at KU, built that record with considerably less talent as it relates to recruiting rankings than UK, Duke, and North Carolina.
Coach Self’s head to head record versus the top blue blood coaches during his time at KU is impressive as well.
- Coach Self vs Coach Cal at UK: 5-4
- Coach Self vs Coach K at Duke: 3-2
- Coach Self vs Coach Williams at UNC: I believe he is 3-0
I am not seeing an under achiever here. Personally, I am not looking forward to the day he retires and we have to replace him. That will be a tough act to follow.
My point is not that Self is a bad coach. My point is to UK fans that would absolutely gripe at his numbers. UK fans are all about whoever has done well most recently.
This is a strawman argument, this isn't at all close to what you said earlier, this is a completely new set of statements.
The conversation was never about each coaches accomplishments, it was about first and second round losses and you literally said Bill Self had "3 to 4 times more 1st and 2nd round losses than Cal", which is incredibly false.
Also, I never "celebrated" Bill Self's accomplishments.
Why are you fabricating all this crap?
But you said Self has 3-4 times more losses in the 1st and 2nd rounds than Cal. Which is it?
All UK fans are asking for is that UK is a threat. It seems like Kansas is a 1 seed every year, we haven't been a 1 seed since 2015.
We've also said many times, if Cal had a 2nd title, the heat would be off, well, Self has 2 titles and a very happy fanbase.
Self has 7
Cal has 3
So twice as much. 3-4 times was exaggerated hyperbole, not literal.
Won as many as UK has since Cal came here . Sooooo.. Listen Cal needs to pick it back up as last 3 years have slacked . Covid year ain't on him just like Duke and a few other young and talented rosters sucked that year for obvious reasons. So Cal needs to get his crap together for sure but everyone attacking him ofr literally everything is ****eng rediculous and just makes UK fans look like flaming morons when I know for fact the majority of us are some of the most knowledgeable fans in the game .
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