Who is the Dirtiest Recruiter in the SEC?

[BlueRattie]

I've been reading the various posts on the malfeasance committed by Hugh Freeze and the rest of his cronies down at Ole Miss for the past couple of years. Reading Grumpy's stories of the garbage that OM pulled and knowing that they got caught and will be hammered fills me with a little disgust, a little schadenfreude, and a lot of curiosity.

The SEC has a well deserved reputation for being a dominant football conference. Sadly, we also have something of a reputation as for having teams that are willing to take less than honorable tactics to lure in recruits. From Pat Dye's Cabin, to Ole Miss's cash benefits, to Kiffin refusing to stay in his Lane, there is something of a "cheat early, win now, pay later" culture in the SEC. But which team, I wondered, is the dirtiest recruiter in the SEC?

I look forward to your responses.

 

[ukalum1988]

Has to be a two-way tie between Auburn and UT IMO.

 

[why_not_kentucky]

Has to be a two-way tie between Auburn and UT IMO.

Explain please. I'm just curious.

 

[NoviG8r]

At various times over the years, different coaches/assistants have been rumored to be "dirty" when it comes to recruiting. Some have been nailed by the NCAA, or been associated with a program which has suffered sanctions. I'm sure that much of the rumor business is sour grapes from rivals. But one such coach rumored to have been "dirty" at previous coaching stops in the SEC was Eddie Gran himself.

 

[Wvvrn]

At various times over the years, different coaches/assistants have been rumored to be "dirty" when it comes to recruiting. Some have been nailed by the NCAA, or been associated with a program which has suffered sanctions. I'm sure that much of the rumor business is sour grapes from rivals. But one such coach rumored to have been "dirty" at previous coaching stops in the SEC was Eddie Gran himself.

That's interesting. I haven't heard of any dirty recruiting practices by Gran but I haven't really followed him that closely up until now. I know he's been very successful recruiting at most of his stops which will stir up rivals that can start whispers of dirty tactics (sometimes true, sometimes not). Do you have any specifics on what he's been accused of?

 

[sieken]

Going to have to disagree with that assessment. Gran like any other good recruiter I'm sure has skirted along the line. If he were dirty do you not think he would have been caught up in the UT/Kiffin mess. Instead, he left UT to get away from that mess.

 

[trueblujr2]

Has any SEC team been hit harder than we were by the NCAA for Claude Bassets shenanigans in the past 30 or so years? I know Bama went through some sanctions as well, but of course they had the name and resources to recover from it. I know Auburn got hammered for some Terry Bowden wrongdoings. But who else?

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

I've been reading the various posts on the malfeasance committed by Hugh Freeze and the rest of his cronies down at Ole Miss for the past couple of years. Reading Grumpy's stories of the garbage that OM pulled and knowing that they got caught and will be hammered fills me with a little disgust, a little schadenfreude, and a lot of curiosity.

The SEC has a well deserved reputation for being a dominant football conference. Sadly, we also have something of a reputation as for having teams that are willing to take less than honorable tactics to lure in recruits. From Pat Dye's Cabin, to Ole Miss's cash benefits, to Kiffin refusing to stay in his Lane, there is something of a "cheat early, win now, pay later" culture in the SEC. But which team, I wondered, is the dirtiest recruiter in the SEC?

I look forward to your responses.

AU and no one else is close right now, OM wasn't close either. AU will tell you that nothing was ever found with Cam, not true, the NCAA just took AU's word that Cam didn't know anything about it and declared him eligible. Cam's dad was a minister of a church that was condemned and set to be torn down if not repaired, roughly a quarter million was needed which he didn't have. When Cam went to AU somehow the church was repaired and saved. Watch around signing day, kids taking late visits, to AU at the percentage who end up going there and pictures of them at Pat Dye's cabin surface. Why would a kid who lived in the city his entire life want to visit a cabin in the woods? Bama has been relatively clean the last few years because Saban had a staff of elite recruiters and they were winning big, they would on occasion go after a kid AU everyone thought was AU bound just to keep them in their place but for the most part haven't had to. I think Fulmer ratting Bama out awhile back bought UT some good will from the NCAA and have been pretty much on the up and up since Fulmer was let go. I don't claim or think the other 10 are so are lily white, but I don't think they are buying houses and handing out cars left and right. tOSU and Clemson are as dirty as anyone in the SEC, Urban didn't earn the name Urban Liar for nothing, and what happened to Freeze may be making him even more cautious. Clemson is out in the middle of no where on the side of I-85 with nothing to do for miles, yet city kids flock there because they are family? Nevermind those pic of them with 100$ bills laid out on a bed getting posted on twitter and facebood after a visit.

 

[mrschwump]

AU and no one else is close right now, OM wasn't close either. AU will tell you that nothing was ever found with Cam, not true, the NCAA just took AU's word that Cam didn't know anything about it and declared him eligible. Cam's dad was a minister of a church that was condemned and set to be torn down if not repaired, roughly a quarter million was needed which he didn't have. When Cam went to AU somehow the church was repaired and saved. Watch around signing day, kids taking late visits, to AU at the percentage who end up going there and pictures of them at Pat Dye's cabin surface. Why would a kid who lived in the city his entire life want to visit a cabin in the woods? Bama has been relatively clean the last few years because Saban had a staff of elite recruiters and they were winning big, they would on occasion go after a kid AU everyone thought was AU bound just to keep them in their place but for the most part haven't had to. I think Fulmer ratting Bama out awhile back bought UT some good will from the NCAA and have been pretty much on the up and up since Fulmer was let go. I don't claim or think the other 10 are so are lily white, but I don't think they are buying houses and handing out cars left and right. tOSU and Clemson are as dirty as anyone in the SEC, Urban didn't earn the name Urban Liar for nothing, and what happened to Freeze may be making him even more cautious. Clemson is out in the middle of no where on the side of I-85 with nothing to do for miles, yet city kids flock there because they are family? Nevermind those pic of them with 100$ bills laid out on a bed getting posted on twitter and facebood after a visit.

Dig deep enough into the OM thing and you will find UT. You can bet your bottom dollar on that. Going back to the days of Majors UT discovered that if you rat out others you can get away with anything. And when the NCAA started getting close they started singing like song birds. Got so bad, or good for UT I guess, that Trooper Taylor was openly using his Miami street agents under Phat. I don't keep up anymore but I guarantee OM ain't the only SEC cheater.

 

[DACats86]

Has any SEC team been hit harder than we were by the NCAA for Claude Bassets shenanigans in the past 30 or so years? I know Bama went through some sanctions as well, but of course they had the name and resources to recover from it. I know Auburn got hammered for some Terry Bowden wrongdoings. But who else?

No, not even close. Primarily because UK (itself) dug up everything it had ever done wrong and handed it over to the NCAA, and fully cooperated in every manner possible. They fell on their sword, so to speak. The better method primarily employed now is to challenge/refute/deny everything and do not cooperate at all with the NCAA. It seems to result in lesser penalties.

 

[RammerJammer91]

AU and no one else is close right now, OM wasn't close either. AU will tell you that nothing was ever found with Cam, not true, the NCAA just took AU's word that Cam didn't know anything about it and declared him eligible. Cam's dad was a minister of a church that was condemned and set to be torn down if not repaired, roughly a quarter million was needed which he didn't have. When Cam went to AU somehow the church was repaired and saved. Watch around signing day, kids taking late visits, to AU at the percentage who end up going there and pictures of them at Pat Dye's cabin surface. Why would a kid who lived in the city his entire life want to visit a cabin in the woods? Bama has been relatively clean the last few years because Saban had a staff of elite recruiters and they were winning big, they would on occasion go after a kid AU everyone thought was AU bound just to keep them in their place but for the most part haven't had to. I think Fulmer ratting Bama out awhile back bought UT some good will from the NCAA and have been pretty much on the up and up since Fulmer was let go. I don't claim or think the other 10 are so are lily white, but I don't think they are buying houses and handing out cars left and right. tOSU and Clemson are as dirty as anyone in the SEC, Urban didn't earn the name Urban Liar for nothing, and what happened to Freeze may be making him even more cautious. Clemson is out in the middle of no where on the side of I-85 with nothing to do for miles, yet city kids flock there because they are family? Nevermind those pic of them with 100$ bills laid out on a bed getting posted on twitter and facebood after a visit.

Didn't MSU offer Cam money as well? Wasn't it $180,000 or was that what Cam's dad asked of them?

 

[GonzoCat90]

Every damn one of them. Name a top 50 program. They're cheating. Name a top 100 program. They're cheating with less money.

I don't think it's cars and cash at every place, but *somebody* is willing to do *something* for every recruit or their family or coach, and you have to play ball.

Now, not every kid or recruitment is looking for anything. I think most of them probably aren't. But there's a kid or two (or forty) on every roster that the team would rather no one know the whole truth about, whether it's a grade or a rent payment or an uncle leaving with a briefcase.

 

[Mills_for_Three]

Yes. That was the source of the butt hurt in Starkville...We offered him money, so Auburn must have offered more....Plus Will Redman got them put on probation for getting a mustang shortly after committing to State.

Didn't MSU offer Cam money as well? Wasn't it $180,000 or was that what Cam's dad asked of them?

 

[EastLansingCat]

Every program in the SEC recruits in shady manors of varying degrees. Same for all P5 schools and others. It's more about who is best at straddling the fine line of shadiness and not getting caught.

 

[vhcat70]

Current dirty - the OP's question I think - and ancient history brought up often in this thread are two different things. What Fulmer/Cam/Bassett/etc have to do with today is far fetched.

 

[Littlefeller]

It used to be parents taught their kids not to cheat but oh how times have changed-now they are taught how not to get caught. Same applies to recruiting

 

[KYCAT78]

Has any SEC team been hit harder than we were by the NCAA for Claude Bassets shenanigans in the past 30 or so years? I know Bama went through some sanctions as well, but of course they had the name and resources to recover from it. I know Auburn got hammered for some Terry Bowden wrongdoings. But who else?

Alabama was hit way harder than us over the recruitment of the player from Memphis. It hurt their program for 10 years and Saban resurrected it. AU issue happened under Dye, Bowden was the Coach during probation. Of course he had his own issues.

 

[CatGotMyTongue]

I'd say Bama still cheats. Dirty, rotten bastages.

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

Didn't MSU offer Cam money as well? Wasn't it $180,000 or was that what Cam's dad asked of them?

That was what MSU said, wasn't enough to get the church fixed up I guess. And Cam wanted to play for Mullens too. AU fans want you to believe he turned down 180K to play for his first choice to come play for them for nothing. Has to be those fall back degrees coming how.

 

[TeoJ]

At various times over the years, different coaches/assistants have been rumored to be "dirty" when it comes to recruiting. Some have been nailed by the NCAA, or been associated with a program which has suffered sanctions. I'm sure that much of the rumor business is sour grapes from rivals. But one such coach rumored to have been "dirty" at previous coaching stops in the SEC was Eddie Gran himself.

Ever hear of the Gator 100.00 hand shakes?

 

[jauk11]

Alabama was hit way harder than us over the recruitment of the player from Memphis. It hurt their program for 10 years and Saban resurrected it. AU issue happened under Dye, Bowden was the Coach during probation. Of course he had his own issues.

Quite possible, BUT they had the commitment of the University behind their football team.

In 2002 UK's class consisted of only 15 commits, Bama had 19 commits. UK's class was ramked 92nd in the nation, Bama's ranked 30th. UK had one four star, Yancy, that did nothing for whatever reason, Bama had four four stars. UK had ONE three star, Bama had twelve. UK even had one of those rare ONE stars, Bama had one of those even more rare FIVE stars. Quite a difference, wouldn't you agree, Bama had more five and four star commits than we have had this century except for Barker's 14 class, and UK signed our first (in state) and only five star this century in 2016. Oh, and Bama signed SEVEN five stars in 17, all that work over the years paid great results, and over a decade of neglect also had its results at UK.

So Bama was hit harder than UK by probation, so what was the difference in the classes, I would say Bama recognized that extraordinary effort was required and gave that effort, UK said ho hum, we have basketball.

Just a coincidence that this was about the time that mitch took over and Brooks saved us from the embarrassment of not having a football coach.

 

[*Bleedingblue*]

I dont know what it is now but on official visits you got expense money. If you get some guys together that are on officials and travel up together and room together you all split the bill. Save the extra cash money for your pocket. Or take pics of it like the kids do today :-/

 

[jauk11]

Ever hear of the Gator 100.00 hand shakes?

Does anyone really think that the $5,000 "loan" that hurtt got from the $930,000,000 scammer was to keep from his power being cut off? And that the check he paid it back with wasn't immediately replaced with cash? And that jurich, that threw a $24,500,000 contract at a coach with no other offers (plus a $500,000 bonus) had any trouble furnishing hurtt with whatever he needed at Transfer U?

The $100 handshake, the oldest and most effective weapon in recruiting. The only way you could get caught is if you had to rob a bank with marked bills for the handshakes, not a problem at most schools with rabid fans but apparently would be at UK, we couldn't raise enough money to replace the folding chairs in the "recruiting room" for about 15 years.

Priorities I guess.

 

[DACats86]

Quite possible, BUT they had the commitment of the University behind their football team.

In 2002 UK's class consisted of only 15 commits, Bama had 19 commits. UK's class was ramked 92nd in the nation, Bama's ranked 30th. UK had one four star, Yancy, that did nothing for whatever reason, Bama had four four stars. UK had ONE three star, Bama had twelve. UK even had one of those rare ONE stars, Bama had one of those even more rare FIVE stars. Quite a difference, wouldn't you agree, Bama had more five and four star commits than we have had this century except for Barker's 14 class, and UK signed our first (in state) and only five star this century in 2016. Oh, and Bama signed SEVEN five stars in 17, all that work over the years paid great results, and over a decade of neglect also had its results at UK.

So Bama was hit harder than UK by probation, so what was the difference in the classes, I would say Bama recognized that extraordinary effort was required and gave that effort, UK said ho hum, we have basketball.

Just a coincidence that this was about the time that mitch took over and Brooks saved us from the embarrassment of not having a football coach.

Didn't Bama start their "Hawaii Bowl" trips during probation?

 

[jauk11]

Didn't Bama start their "Hawaii Bowl" trips during probation?

I don't know, but that would be a perfect example of the extraordinary effort needed to overcome probation. How many trips did UK's football team make to Hawaii, hell, did they even replace the folding chairs in the "recruiting room"?

Has the basketball team made any trips to exotic locations? Didn't Harbaugh take his whole team to Italy to get the Pope's blessing? When is the last time Transfer U or even WKU missed a trip to one of the readily available bowl games with the player perks?

Last but by far NOT the least how in hell does Thug U, Transfer U, and even city college Cincy get away with paying their players over $2,000 more a year than we pay ours-------and that is just the legal money.

Another penny wise and pound foolish decision, almost as obvious and stupid as keeping the "recruiting room" for about 15 years, and maybe more damaging.

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

Quite possible, BUT they had the commitment of the University behind their football team.

In 2002 UK's class consisted of only 15 commits, Bama had 19 commits. UK's class was ramked 92nd in the nation, Bama's ranked 30th. UK had one four star, Yancy, that did nothing for whatever reason, Bama had four four stars. UK had ONE three star, Bama had twelve. UK even had one of those rare ONE stars, Bama had one of those even more rare FIVE stars. Quite a difference, wouldn't you agree, Bama had more five and four star commits than we have had this century except for Barker's 14 class, and UK signed our first (in state) and only five star this century in 2016. Oh, and Bama signed SEVEN five stars in 17, all that work over the years paid great results, and over a decade of neglect also had its results at UK.

So Bama was hit harder than UK by probation, so what was the difference in the classes, I would say Bama recognized that extraordinary effort was required and gave that effort, UK said ho hum, we have basketball.

Just a coincidence that this was about the time that mitch took over and Brooks saved us from the embarrassment of not having a football coach.

Bama had some years of post season bans from the Memphis deal too. But they managed to lessen that blow by scheduling some games in Hawaii. No one in any sport is more all in than Bama is in football. They have shot each other over games, after AU beat them on a failed FG return. Both were even Bama fans and one shot the other because they didn't take the loss hard enough and was able to laugh after the game.

Didn't Bama start their "Hawaii Bowl" trips during probation?

They did, but I can't remember if was an extra game or they just made a special trip there to keep kids interested in coming to Bama. Seems like they found a loophole that allowed them to play an extra game but that could be wrong. But you are correct they called it their bowl game.

 

[KYCAT78]

Quite possible, BUT they had the commitment of the University behind their football team.

In 2002 UK's class consisted of only 15 commits, Bama had 19 commits. UK's class was ramked 92nd in the nation, Bama's ranked 30th. UK had one four star, Yancy, that did nothing for whatever reason, Bama had four four stars. UK had ONE three star, Bama had twelve. UK even had one of those rare ONE stars, Bama had one of those even more rare FIVE stars. Quite a difference, wouldn't you agree, Bama had more five and four star commits than we have had this century except for Barker's 14 class, and UK signed our first (in state) and only five star this century in 2016. Oh, and Bama signed SEVEN five stars in 17, all that work over the years paid great results, and over a decade of neglect also had its results at UK.

So Bama was hit harder than UK by probation, so what was the difference in the classes, I would say Bama recognized that extraordinary effort was required and gave that effort, UK said ho hum, we have basketball.

Just a coincidence that this was about the time that mitch took over and Brooks saved us from the embarrassment of not having a football coach.

Bama even in the probation years was going to get more talent than us due to their tradition. If you look at the results on the field over that period Bama lost a lot more than we did based on perception. I agree we got punished but our expectations have always been lower in football than Bama's. I have lived in Alabama since 78 and I can tell you the period between Stallings and Saban was considered the dark days in the program. Just like Pitino resurrected basketball Saban resurrected Bama football. Without Pitino we probably would have suffered 2 or 3 more years and without Saban the same thing probably happens to Bama.

 

[jauk11]

Bama even in the probation years was going to get more talent than us due to their tradition. If you look at the results on the field over that period Bama lost a lot more than we did based on perception. I agree we got punished but our expectations have always been lower in football than Bama's. I have lived in Alabama since 78 and I can tell you the period between Stallings and Saban was considered the dark days in the program. Just like Pitino resurrected basketball Saban resurrected Bama football. Without Pitino we probably would have suffered 2 or 3 more years and without Saban the same thing probably happens to Bama.

Did you even look at the difference in the two classes coming off probation?

Let's face it, UK already had a ton of handicaps, in state talent, tradition, facilities, and the NCAA piled probation on top of that. So UK needed an extraordinary effort to restore our football program, and while a very good coach volunteered to help us out he received at best bare minimum support for both his and Joker's time here. Football money was used to finance all the minor sports with hardly anything reinvested in it from 2002 to 2012. Even though it was the emerging money cow.

And if BP is responsible for the disgrace at Minardi Hall because he was in charge who do you thing should be responsible at UK?

 

[jauk11]

Bama even in the probation years was going to get more talent than us due to their tradition. If you look at the results on the field over that period Bama lost a lot more than we did based on perception. I agree we got punished but our expectations have always been lower in football than Bama's. I have lived in Alabama since 78 and I can tell you the period between Stallings and Saban was considered the dark days in the program. Just like Pitino resurrected basketball Saban resurrected Bama football. Without Pitino we probably would have suffered 2 or 3 more years and without Saban the same thing probably happens to Bama.

Tradition------AND support for football. AND I would bet that support was ramped up quite bit to help overcome probation------someone already mentioned their "Bowl" trip to Hawaii.

 

[DACats86]

Bama had some years of post season bans from the Memphis deal too. But they managed to lessen that blow by scheduling some games in Hawaii. No one in any sport is more all in than Bama is in football. They have shot each other over games, after AU beat them on a failed FG return. Both were even Bama fans and one shot the other because they didn't take the loss hard enough and was able to laugh after the game.


They did, but I can't remember if was an extra game or they just made a special trip there to keep kids interested in coming to Bama. Seems like they found a loophole that allowed them to play an extra game but that could be wrong. But you are correct they called it their bowl game.

Ha! I had forgotten that they were allowed to "add" the game to their schedule so it was, in effect, a bowl game! I recall there was a rule that games against Hawaii didn't count against regular season total game count because the NCAA wanted more teams to schedule home games against Hawaii. I wonder if the rule is still in effect... I bet not...

 

[mrschwump]

Ha! I had forgotten that they were allowed to "add" the game to their schedule so it was, in effect, a bowl game! I recall there was a rule that games against Hawaii didn't count against regular season total game count because the NCAA wanted more teams to schedule home games against Hawaii. I wonder if the rule is still in effect... I bet not...

Used to be teams could add games in Hawaii as an extra game as an incentive to travel there. Unfortunately schools who do travel to Hawaii end up losing money. UT played in one of those contrived bowl games several years ago and lost something like $200K.

 

[willievic]

I don't think all the SEC schools cheat in recruiting. I know several do, but I think UofL, with the outlaw coaches they have, and had in the past, are BIG time cheaters. Would you trust Petrino?

OLD STOLL FIELD GUY!

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

Used to be teams could add games in Hawaii as an extra game as an incentive to travel there. Unfortunately schools who do travel to Hawaii end up losing money. UT played in one of those contrived bowl games several years ago and lost something like $200K.

UGA played a bowl game there during Donnan's time, looked like about 200 in the stands. Bama had just gotten caught paying 200k for Albert Means, who didn't get a penny of it, when to a group of HS coaches in Memphis who were selling kids to schools. So 200k for a trip to Hawaii for the entire team was a bargain. Bama has never spared expense when it comes to helping the football program, The hiring of Saban broke barriers at what coaches are paid that then filtered over to BB and other sports. They by pass highway upkeep if that's what it takes to keep the football program on top, not only are the players all in, but the entire state is all in.

 

[ukalum1988]

Ha! I had forgotten that they were allowed to "add" the game to their schedule so it was, in effect, a bowl game! I recall there was a rule that games against Hawaii didn't count against regular season total game count because the NCAA wanted more teams to schedule home games against Hawaii. I wonder if the rule is still in effect... I bet not...

I have no idea about that rule, but I do have some first-hand experience on that particular game ....

In the fall of 2002 my wife and I were found to be expecting our second child, and we decided to take our 10-year anniversary trip a year early. So - we booked our Hawaii trip and split our time between Maui and Oahu. Maui was great and we got to see the Cats play in the Maui Classic. The Oahu part of the trip was still nice, but it was dampened by the fact that it was leading up to the Alabama - Hawaii FB game, with Tide fans everywhere. We went to a cheesy luau, and over half the people there were Bama fans. As a big LSU fan, my wife was pretty unhappy because she despises Alabama. More than one Tide fan told me that the game was set up to give the team (and their fans) an exotic place to go since they were under a bowl ban.

 

[jauk11]

I don't think all the SEC schools cheat in recruiting. I know several do, but I think UofL, with the outlaw coaches they have, and had in the past, are BIG time cheaters. Would you trust Petrino?

OLD STOLL FIELD GUY!

Ha.

Probably a real bargain as far as a recruiting goes, hell, their "Orange Pride" budget was probably higher than that.

Probably cut that in half since the NCAA banned them though, LOL.

 

[hmt5000]

orgeron not getting enough love in here. he was rumored to be dirty when at ole miss years ago... so dirty that joey freshwater hired him to recruit at utee and kept him in the move to SC. dude pulls in studs and has the personality of fish.

 

[RammerJammer91]

orgeron not getting enough love in here. he was rumored to be dirty when at ole miss years ago... so dirty that joey freshwater hired him to recruit at utee and kept him in the move to SC. dude pulls in studs and has the personality of fish.

Oh, he won't get any criticism on here or anywhere else, really. He's a good, big 'ole southern boy that smiles all the time and is hard to understand, so the media loves him. To a lesser extent, it was the same thing with Les Miles. He would badmouth a team to recruits, he over signed/recruited over some kids, held a "team vote" when his star RB sucker punched a guy in the street, and was at Oklahoma State when they allegedly had hostesses having sex with recruits. A lot of other coaches would (and have) get called out for that, but did Miles? Nope. Why? Because he's goofy, eats grass, and maybe people feel bad for him because he can't manage a clock? The media loved him because he ate grass and made a funny!

 

[jauk11]

Oh, he won't get any criticism on here or anywhere else, really. He's a good, big 'ole southern boy that smiles all the time and is hard to understand, so the media loves him. To a lesser extent, it was the same thing with Les Miles. He would badmouth a team to recruits, he over signed/recruited over some kids, held a "team vote" when his star RB sucker punched a guy in the street, and was at Oklahoma State when they allegedly had hostesses having sex with recruits. A lot of other coaches would (and have) get called out for that, but did Miles? Nope. Why? Because he's goofy, eats grass, and maybe people feel bad for him because he can't manage a clock? The media loved him because he ate grass and made a funny!

I get your point, but nothing wrong with eating grass, a lot better than smoking it and legal too. Lots of people love animals that eat grass, especially women, my wife spent a fortune on one.

 

[bigbluemist]

Messenger

He used to say he was approached by people to try and get in with recruits. IIRC, even said he was approached about being a silent partner for a bag mans slush fund.

 

[DACats86]

Messenger

He used to say he was approached by people to try and get in with recruits. IIRC, even said he was approached about being a silent partner for a bag mans slush fund.

Man, stuff like that doesn't happen in a blue decade...