UNCheat takes offense when U. Of Maryland prez says school should get death penalty
- Thread starter Smashcat
- Start date
Most basketball related people will not speak out, meaning ADs or coaches. Presidents may because they are buffered from the day to day activities of a team.
The ADs and coaches know where the bones are buried on every program. Speaking up puts a target on their backs.
I don't think it is a NCAA issue, I think the accrediting agency should pull unc accreditation, effective when the class started. and everyone with a unc degree will be left out in the cold. That would put an end to fake classes. and the NCAA will be left with egg on their face trying to justify how a non-accredited college could win 3 titles.
hahaha...the NCAA has vacated seasons for less proof than what is in the UNC case. for example they retroactively ruled derrcik rose ineligible because, even though the NCAA could not prove anything at all, they felt he did not takes his SAT. straight up UNC is lucky they don't lose their academic accreditation over this
Careful with that line of thinking. I agree. That is where the real issue lies.
I find it amazing SACs hasn't stepped in yet. And in reality, this is why UNC is fighting so hard on the issue. Imagine if SACs said your degrees are no longer accredited.
Degrees become less valuable. Anyone that used a particular class as a requirement, may have the their degree taken (not really, but it would be funny).
The costs to get re-instated will be high from a perspective point of view. It affects the entire student body and not just athletes.
I'm obviously not a smart person.
A smart person would easily understand the difference between fake classes being outside the purview of the NCAA while "suspecting" someone cheating on a test, is.
And I do not.
A smart person would easily understand the difference between fake classes being outside the purview of the NCAA while "suspecting" someone cheating on a test, is.
And I do not.
Mr.U of Maryland president, millions agree with you and I am one of the millions. Allowing UNC to get away with decades of academic fraud makes a mockery of "college athletics" Everyone knows that but the ones who can do something about it have been slow to act which makes me think they don't give a damn.
They have stepped in and put them on probation. Do your best to try to keep up.
But in this case UNC admitted the classes were fraudulent . Even Governor Martin who did the initial repot (whitewash) said it would be ridiculous to write this off as simply an academic matter since so many athletes were steered into the classes.
In other words the NCAA doesn't have to get in the business of determine if these classes were fraudulent. UNC admitted it. And they gained a huge advantage by using fake classes to keep certain players eligible. Couldn't be a clearer case of LOIC designed to give a competitive advantage to athletes .
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Do you honestly beieve this BS? There are emails showing them funneling in regular students to not set off red flags to the NCAA. And we do have transcripts showing what it looks like if they didn't take these classes (McCants and Peppers).
Seriously, you can GFY. Teams have vacated for less than what we have already proven and they wouldn't win in court. The NCAA is a member union. You don't have to be in it and if you are, you go by their decisions.
Yeah but remember, tar heel fans are all quick to remind us that this was an "academic issue and not an athletic issue." So that's why what occurred at UNC was perfectly acceptable. ![[laughing]](http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/img/emoticons/classic/laugh.r191677.gif "Laughing [laughing]")
Joel Curran and Roy Williams are going to go by the denial statement now comes out as more time goes by as 'we did nothing wrong'.
What a load of crap Roy is to even make this kind of comment. Wayne Walden coincidentally leaving says it all. No matter how Roy spins it, his school is dirtier than any school representing student athletes.
So ready for this case to be over and the punishment due them dolled out. NCAA cannot ignore 5 Level 1 infractions as a slap to the wrist.
The last 2 seasons have been shams to not have this resolved.
What a load of crap Roy is to even make this kind of comment. Wayne Walden coincidentally leaving says it all. No matter how Roy spins it, his school is dirtier than any school representing student athletes.
So ready for this case to be over and the punishment due them dolled out. NCAA cannot ignore 5 Level 1 infractions as a slap to the wrist.
The last 2 seasons have been shams to not have this resolved.
Yeah but remember, tar heel fans are all quick to remind us that this was an "academic issue and not an athletic issue." So that's why what occurred at UNC was perfectly acceptable.
Which athletes just so happened to make up 80-90 percent of the enrollment. Yeah, not an athletics issue at all.
UNC fan be like: "Kentucky should get the death penalty for cal just being their coach"
also UNC fan: " we did nothing wrong at all, those guys turned in their AFAM curriculum approved preschool coloring books, those students athletes are geniuses they would have been eligible if they had taken advanced topics in neutrino theory"
also UNC fan:" Kansas is dumb for claiming helms titles, UK only has like 3 titles cause titles won before 1960 shouldn't count because of the limited number of teams invited to the tournament ...but we have 7 titles, cause helms titles are more meaningful than NCAA titles if you think about it and our title in 1957 was even harder to win because the limited number of teams invited to the tournament"
question of the day are they a terrible fan base or the most terrible fan base?
also UNC fan: " we did nothing wrong at all, those guys turned in their AFAM curriculum approved preschool coloring books, those students athletes are geniuses they would have been eligible if they had taken advanced topics in neutrino theory"
also UNC fan:" Kansas is dumb for claiming helms titles, UK only has like 3 titles cause titles won before 1960 shouldn't count because of the limited number of teams invited to the tournament ...but we have 7 titles, cause helms titles are more meaningful than NCAA titles if you think about it and our title in 1957 was even harder to win because the limited number of teams invited to the tournament"
question of the day are they a terrible fan base or the most terrible fan base?
They're the absolute worst fan base...the worst! Before AFAM came to light, they were so smug and self righteous and spouted off about academics and the "Carolina Way." When they're exposed, the narrative changes to "everyone does it" or "We did nothing wrong" and refuses to acknowledge or accept any responsibility.
They're like the rich kid who the rules don't apply to and gets busted for cocaine and a DUI, but the law refuses to punish him because of who his daddy is.
Helms titles were given retroactively too. Hilariously pathetic and trying to pass those off as real titles is like a guy wearing lifts in his shoes to make you think he's taller.
See? That was fast.
I think if UNC doesn't get a significant punishment then some major programs should boycott the NCAA tournament. It is the big money maker for the NCAA, if the NCAA isn't going to uphold their rules then they should pay. A few big programs sit out, it will delegitimize the NCAA tournament. The universities could have a little tournament of their own instead that year or for a few years if needed.
Here is where I differ on their way of thinking.
first, I fully believe that UNC created these classes for the benefit of keeping athletes eligible to play and knowingly fed regular students into them just for this moment to say that they were available to any student. UNC's admission by their AD that these were fraudulent classes but not wrong by the rules of the NCAA certainly supports that assumption and shows this approach was premeditated.
secondly, I believe based on emails exposed in the Winestain report (clever wine and cheese joke eh?)a large number of administrators and advisors knew these classes gave preferential treatment to athletes.
finally, I don't think its a legitimate excuse to say that because a regular student took the class, that athletes did not receive benefits as a result.
An athlete took a fraudulent class that results in them remaining eligible to play, in at least one instance, the majority of a national championship team in basketball.
What happens above and beyond that in terms of accreditation is a separate issue
Now the NCAA may not see it that way, and certainly UNC doesn't want anyone to see it that way, but its clear athletes received impermissible benefits. There is zero debate about that. That non athletes received these same benefits should be irrelevant to the argument of cheating.
The fact that UNC is arguing against being punished for an academic scandal they admit to doing is surreal at this point.
first, I fully believe that UNC created these classes for the benefit of keeping athletes eligible to play and knowingly fed regular students into them just for this moment to say that they were available to any student. UNC's admission by their AD that these were fraudulent classes but not wrong by the rules of the NCAA certainly supports that assumption and shows this approach was premeditated.
secondly, I believe based on emails exposed in the Winestain report (clever wine and cheese joke eh?)a large number of administrators and advisors knew these classes gave preferential treatment to athletes.
finally, I don't think its a legitimate excuse to say that because a regular student took the class, that athletes did not receive benefits as a result.
An athlete took a fraudulent class that results in them remaining eligible to play, in at least one instance, the majority of a national championship team in basketball.
What happens above and beyond that in terms of accreditation is a separate issue
Now the NCAA may not see it that way, and certainly UNC doesn't want anyone to see it that way, but its clear athletes received impermissible benefits. There is zero debate about that. That non athletes received these same benefits should be irrelevant to the argument of cheating.
The fact that UNC is arguing against being punished for an academic scandal they admit to doing is surreal at this point.
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agree, glad the maryland dude had the balls to call unc out. i'm tired of unc and duke getting special treatment.
For me the difference is for 2 decades, it's college coursework and not HS transcripts catching the ire of the NCAA this time. But I think the only hope for justice resides in the fact that the school has admitted the classes were fake, yet has taken ZERO responsibility for it.
You don't know much about this case, do you? You are factually incorrect almost across the board. We'll go one by one.
- UNC violated extra benefits legislation. Your first sentence is false.
- The NCAA has never claimed to determine what constitutes an accredited course. Your second sentence is irrelevant and has nothing to do with this case.
- The fact that non-students attended these classes is irrelevant to the alleged violations based on the FI included in the most recent NOA. Your third sentence is also irrelevant.
- Proving the athletes wouldn't have been ineligible in some hypothetical alternative scenario is irrelevant to these issues. The use of courses that are later found to be deficient results in an "erroneous certification of eligibility." Your fourth sentence is nonsense.
- The fact that work was done is also irrelevant as the NCAA has not alleged that work didn't occur. The NCAA alleged that the totality of assistance provided to athletes combined with the lax classwork relieved them of the burden of being a student to a far greater degree than non-athletes. This constitutes an extra benefit and represents an NCAA violation. Your fifth sentence shows you have very little clue what you're talking about.
- The above points highlight how your concluding two sentences are not supported by the facts.
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'05 outshines '09 when considering mccants and the whole starting lineup thing, but '09 is just as guilty. so is '93. and people regularly group those and not '93. i will keep reminding those who leave it out.
I hope that this will put to rest the notion that Presidents and AD's are all a band of thieves that will cover for each other because they've got their own bodies buried somewhere.
No they don't. Certainly not all of them, and we need the good ones to speak out. Anyone that gives one damn about academic integrity SHOULD be embarrassed and speak out about a multi-faceted academic scam like the one UNC was running. It's embarrassing and reflects poorly on all of college athletics, not just one specific program. Even if there isn't going to be any punishment, I respect those that are willing to risk having their own name and integrity put under a microscope because they spoke out more than those who remain silent out of fear that there could potentially be something damaging uncovered about them or their University.
President's and AD's, follow Mr. Low's example and show some courage.
No they don't. Certainly not all of them, and we need the good ones to speak out. Anyone that gives one damn about academic integrity SHOULD be embarrassed and speak out about a multi-faceted academic scam like the one UNC was running. It's embarrassing and reflects poorly on all of college athletics, not just one specific program. Even if there isn't going to be any punishment, I respect those that are willing to risk having their own name and integrity put under a microscope because they spoke out more than those who remain silent out of fear that there could potentially be something damaging uncovered about them or their University.
President's and AD's, follow Mr. Low's example and show some courage.
It would not surprise me in the least,he is really out on a limb here.One would think there are many schools that are tired of the UNC/NCAA crap,wish they would all speak up or send a letter(signed by multiple schools) to the NCAA asking to expedite this matter.
UNCfaninKY, is that you?
The classes aren't that big of a deal according to the ANOA. The bigger issue is "Special arrangements" (a.k.a. Extra Benefits) were made for student athletes. Per Allegation 1 of the ANOA ... the same allegation that implicates MBB and football, btw.
From the Wainstein exhibits ...
And Williams wants us to believe that Walden never told him anything. The guy he brought with him from Kansas and credited with being on top of everyone's academics. Ok Roy.
Roy Williams and Wayne Walden both are named in the "Individuals who may be mentioned in the factual information chart" section of the ANOA.
@UKnCincy do you know what that is?
So the NCAA can look at high school documents and say Yay or nay,but not have any say at college courses.That make any sense at all?
the last two sentencesUNCfaninKY, is that you?
The classes aren't that big of a deal according to the ANOA. The bigger issue is "Special arrangements" (a.k.a. Extra Benefits) were made for student athletes. Per Allegation 1 of the ANOA ... the same allegation that implicates MBB and football, btw.
From the Wainstein exhibits ...
Additionally, the excessive involvement by athletics in student-athletes access to and completion of these courses was a benefit not generally available to other students and relieved student-athletes of the academic responsibilities of a general student. In some cases, these courses influenced the student-athletes NCAA academic eligibility
its right there in purple crayon
in my best Ronald Reagan impression
Mr. Emmert, TEAR DOWN THAT BANNER!
Cannot make this stuff up. Even movie producers would deem this more ridiculous than Blue Chips.
Problem is much more happened, the NCAA doesn't look at transcripts to state their case.
One of the elite programs of college basketball and the NCAA allows up to this point UNC to dictate the process?
Roy the ring salesman has sold his soul with his canned answers to preserve their cheating ways.
Sure hope Sankey will stand up to this nonsense, take note of the transcripts, which will show the truth, and resolve his matter.
I can add Maryland to the list of folks who deem UNC as corrupt:
1. Bob Ryan
2, Wallace Loh
Did I miss anyone so far?
Problem is much more happened, the NCAA doesn't look at transcripts to state their case.
One of the elite programs of college basketball and the NCAA allows up to this point UNC to dictate the process?
Roy the ring salesman has sold his soul with his canned answers to preserve their cheating ways.
Sure hope Sankey will stand up to this nonsense, take note of the transcripts, which will show the truth, and resolve his matter.
I can add Maryland to the list of folks who deem UNC as corrupt:
1. Bob Ryan
2, Wallace Loh
Did I miss anyone so far?
There used to be a phrase," "lack of institutional control" which used to be considered pretty serious. If fake classes for athletes doesn't meet that criteria I have no idea what would
What did you guys do in the 50s? And don't say your mom
I only knew of 80s or whateverThe factual information chart is just a table at the beginning of the FI attachment that describes each piece of FI supporting the allegations.
Williams and Walden are probably just mentioned because they were interviewed by the NCAA and the transcripts were included as FI. There may have been a couple of Walden emails too, but I don't remember off the top of my head.
https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/search/miCaseView?id=95
Found this case on the ncaa's website. In 91 Miami, oh head basketball coach taught a class called "basketball theory". Which is no problem..goes along with UNC fans "It's not an athletic issue, the ncaa cant tell you how hard a class has to be" theme. The problem, the coach enrolled a player in there to give him an A to keep him eligible. Turns out he never showed up or submitted any work towards the class. They had to forfeit all games he played, got 2 years probation, and the coach got a show cause. That was one player in one class...that also had normal students. Also the ciach and school complied completely. Unlike unc which had over 1000 athletes and an entire major and has spent over 18 million to make it go away..
Found this case on the ncaa's website. In 91 Miami, oh head basketball coach taught a class called "basketball theory". Which is no problem..goes along with UNC fans "It's not an athletic issue, the ncaa cant tell you how hard a class has to be" theme. The problem, the coach enrolled a player in there to give him an A to keep him eligible. Turns out he never showed up or submitted any work towards the class. They had to forfeit all games he played, got 2 years probation, and the coach got a show cause. That was one player in one class...that also had normal students. Also the ciach and school complied completely. Unlike unc which had over 1000 athletes and an entire major and has spent over 18 million to make it go away..
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