the way this thing w/Cunningham may unfold
- Thread starter davekersey
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My two cents.
We led for him before we hired Cannen (we were his very first offer and he had been on campus a ton). That said Cannen was mainly hired to protect us from a bidding war.
As far as CC’s game is concerned, he’s already being projected to go #1. His name is already out there in a big way. Also, Trae was the most talked about player in country and he was at OU. I could be way off but telling 5 stars to come to UK so they’ll have a legit shot at the lottery is a self fulfilling prophecy. They were going anyway.
The kid is extremely competitive from everything I've heard. OSU is going to be awful next year, they will struggle to even make the tournament. Your staff isn't even guaranteed to be there. Can't imagine him wanting to walk into that mess for his only year of college
It’s about building your brand and being prepared how to deal with media after they play like crap and if they have good games. I don’t think many care to much about Oklahoma State except a small faction of people, no offense.
Those are all hilarious and incorrect rumors you are getting! But if it makes you all feel warm and fuzzy inside then keep going.
Could be, but pobably not. We are extremely young, but we’re not that many pieces away. Boynton has proven that he can beat top 10 teams with next to zero talent and zero bench. We currently have one of the best young bigs in the Big12 (Yor Anei) and a projected top 40 pick in the ‘21 draft and CC’s team USA teammate (Issac Likekeli) . This year will be about survival, but ‘20 is a different story IMO. That’s nothing to y’all, but these will all be 2nd and 3rd year guys by then. A lot of interesting youngsters.
While this could be true of some players in a vacuum the reality is that not all of those players would go to the lottery anyway. For every Trae Young you have a Josh Selby, Cliff Alexander, Nassir Little who did not end up going in the lottery. It's just confirmation Bias because you remember the guys who did succeed but Kentucky has a much higher rate of those guys succeeding than anyone else and it is not even close.
Don’t disagree. I just don’t think it has any affect on CC one way or the other.
Just playing devils advocate. So removing sure fire lottery guys who would make it if they signed with U of Wisconsin Green Bay from the equation..... If you’re a player like Selby who obviously didn’t have it like we thought he did..... is it better to go to Kansas, UK or Duke and get covered up by other 5stars or go to another P5 where you still have a chance at starting and developing over a 2 to 3 year period?
That may be a concern for Cade. I think he wants to play on a team with a chance to win a Championship. Or at least he has said as much.
It’s more of a concern for us. Our entire class is hanging on his commitment. He pulls the trigger and we fill up over night. He goes to UK and we’re scrambling.
I guess it depends on what presuppositions the asking party of such a question brings to the discussion.
For years, we were told that freshmen couldn't win a title. The 1992 title game, for example, was seen as something of a exemplar of this position, wherein a veteran Duke team manhandled an elite group of Fab Five Michigan freshmen by 20 points. Coaches like Bobby Knight and Coach K annually reminded us of the inadequacies of freshmen, even elite freshmen. They said first year kids needed more time, and we believed them. This assumption continued on for years.
Thus, when UK lost in 2010 with the John Wall team, it wasn't considered strange by any real measurement. Here was another group of elite freshmen doing what elite freshmen do on the biggest stage - crumble.
And then 2012 happened. UK won it all with three elite freshmen and two sophomores leading the way. The narrative suddenly became a "moving goal post" depending on whoever was doing the analyzing and what bias they had. Calipari literally inverted the entire order of the college basketball cosmos. We take it for granted now because we look backwards on that 2012 team, but at the time, Coach Cal's team was doing what no one thought was possible - winning a title with five kids who were not upperclassmen.
Let's skip ahead a bit. The last three Duke teams were loaded with elite freshmen, and they all lost before the Final Four. The media took up for K and shielded him from the "elite freshmen are supposed to win" narrative that they threw at Calipari in response to the 2012 title to buttress their bias against the UK Coach. Here again, the goal post shifted. Now Zion and company were merely doing what elite freshmen do on the biggest stage: crumble. How convenient, right? Constantly shifting the goal post to meet whatever the recent media agenda necessitated.
So I guess it comes down to who you are in your own presuppositions and why you're asking the question. Do you think elite freshmen are supposed to win tournament games and big-time Final Four games? If so, you'd have to likewise make a case that the only real support you have for that is based on two teams - 2012 UK and 2015 Duke - the latter of which had three Mickey D juniors and seniors who helped Duke win it all (while Okafor was a no show in the title game) to further complicate your basis for such a narrative. UK had a senior Miller, but 6/7ths of their rotation featured kids who were younger than 20 years old. That's significant.
So it's your turn. Answer the question. Does your presupposition lend itself to the idea that elite freshmen are supposed to win national titles, and what historical basis do you use to support that presupposition?
You're on the clock, and your answer will really reveal to many of us whether you're interested in delineating an answer to this question, or whether you're just another random troll with too much time on your hands.
Because Villanova's system is feast or famine from a title contention standpoint. If they score a solid class that develops over the course of a few years, they compete for a title. If they don't, they're barely making it out of the first weekend in March.
Cal's system has proven to be most consistently effective. That is to say, he's had more real chances at advancing than Jay Wright's efforts, and Cal has advanced more often.
That's the point. To put yourself in line for contention as many times as you can.
It's easy to look back and see Nova's titles as the appropriate paradigm, but I think asking this question in advance negates such a view: would you rather have a team compete for a title 80% of the time, or have a team compete for a title 20% of the time?
Calipari has embraced this question and answered it with a system that puts him in real contention 80% of the time. You can take it for granted that he should have won more titles than he has, but then again I'd refer you back to the first response I wrote to you: should elite freshmen be expected to win it all, and if so, what historical basis do you use to support that presupposition?
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I think it’s just comes down to expectations. When you sign unbelievable classes there will always be unbelievable expectations. In a dream scenario, I think I’d try to lay a foundation of really good 2 and 3 year players and then cherry pick some one and done guys to put them over the top. I think Cal may be the best recruiter in the history of the game , but there is so much hype from year to year, that falls just short. It feels alittle rigid. That’s why I wondered if any UK fans had started second guessing him.
If Cal got to keep Anthony Davis as long as Dabo will have Trevor Lawrence, then he'd have more. Insane YOUNG talent doesn't always win out. Also, Higgins screwed us out of at least 2 more titles under Cal.
But why is there a high level expectation for Cal's freshmen teams when there's really no historical precedent for such expectations?
Did you second guess Coach K last year when he lost in the Elite Eight? Did the media, the Duke fans who saw him win 5 national titles, the Team USA guys who he coached to multiple gold medals? What about when Bagley and company lost to Kansas? What about when Tatum and company lost to South Carolina?
Cal solely created the narrative you seem to now be using against him.
Freshmen weren't supposed to win it all until they did win it all in 2012 and weren't supposed to win it all when K couldn't do it from 2017-2019, but now they're supposed to win it all again because Cal might line up a top class?
I guess the simplest explanation I have is that hype overides historical norms IMOBut why is there a high level expectation for Cal's freshmen teams when there's really no historical precedent for such expectations?
Did you second guess Coach K last year when he lost in the Elite Eight? Did the media, the Duke fans who saw him win 5 national titles, the Team USA guys who he coached to multiple gold medals? What about when Bagley and company lost to Kansas? What about when Tatum and company lost to South Carolina?
Cal solely created the narrative you seem to now be using against him.
Freshmen weren't supposed to win it all until they did win it all in 2012 and weren't supposed to win it all when K couldn't do it from 2017-2019, but now they're supposed to win it all again because Cal might line up a top class?
And curiously enough, that same hype that anoints teams like last year's Duke squad as the greatest collection of front-end talent in the modern era, suddenly evaporates the second Cassius Winston dribbles the game-winning seconds away against Duke.
Then it's back to the micro-level, year-to-year, let's protect Coach K narrative of: "it's hard for freshmen to win on the biggest stage."
But not for Cal. For him, it's the macro-level, "How does Cal only manage one title with so much talent?"
For Cal, all nuance is removed. The third year NBA version of Devin Booker suddenly becomes the first year UK version of Devin Booker. The max contract version of Wall and Cousins is suddenly conflated with the first year UK versions of Wall and Cousins. Here, Calipari is offered no defense and given no quarter. He should have won with those guys, we tell ourselves. After all, those eighteen-year-old guys were finished products, right?
Well there is a little matter of the NCAA and what penalties OK St is going to get that may be pushing him away. Ask yourself, would you want to be part of a great team, or one who struggles to barley be above 500 and make the NIT ?
Yeah unless the smell gets really bad at OKLA STATE from these investigations I agree with the blood thicker then water statement.
But doesn't it work the other way around, too? Cannen could just as easily defer to Cade's "dreams and future" as Cade could towards Cannen's, right?
Why are we assuming Cade has to be the one responsible for helping Cannen's future by essentially telling him "I'm going to help you, big brother: I'm OSU bound"; when Cannen could turn around and tell him "I'm going to help you, little brother: pick the school you truly want."
At the end of the day, Cade will be making over a hundred million in his career. Better to defer to that type of future and make sure it isn't screwed up than defer to the guy (Cannen) whose boss might be fired in 8 months.
Looking more and more that Cunningham will announce for Kentucky in about a month. If this does happen, I look for Greg Brown to join him sooner or later at UK. In Jerry's most recent update to his crystal ball pick he says that Cunningham is as of now Kentucky's to lose. Daniels agrees and others, like Tucker, are leaning there also. Looking good at the moment. The reason behind Daniels and Meyer's recent pick is news that OSU is going to get hit with sanctions from the NCAA.
OK, riddle me this, Duke, UK, and Kansas have a tough time winning with a roster of 5 stars, how in the hell is OSU suppose to take 1, and "some other guys" and win ? You can do that IF you have talent all ready on the team, but the shape OSU is in, Cade and a couple / few 50-70 ranked FRESHMEN, are not going to have a season of any kind of success. Cade is elite and very good, but look at Duke last year, Zion was once and a decade talent, and they had several high ranked freshmen, same has been the case for UK.
@Son_Of_Saul
Straighten him out. We’re going to have a roster full of 2nd and 3rd year starters that have a lot of upside. We have 2 proven commodities and this year will truly set the stage for the rest of the roster. No one at OSU is guaranteeing anything, but the picture is much less grim than you're painting.
Already committed
Boston
Clarke
Fletcher
Ware
Possibly committing to UK
Cunningham
Brown
Askew
IF and BIG if we land all, that possibly leaves 1 big man spot to fill if Cal brings in 8. Anybody think Paolo reclasses and comes too?
Boston
Clarke
Fletcher
Ware
Possibly committing to UK
Cunningham
Brown
Askew
IF and BIG if we land all, that possibly leaves 1 big man spot to fill if Cal brings in 8. Anybody think Paolo reclasses and comes too?
Paolo doesn't go to a basketball factory type school that makes it easier to get credits online. It's going to be difficult for him to have enough credits to make it to reclassify. Also, watch out for Gonzaga, he really likes them as well as UK and UW. Plus he has repeatedly stated he will stay in '21. If he does make it to '20 eligibility, I like UK's chances, but there is serious competition.
2nd and 3rd year starters with a lot of upside ??? that really sounds like "guys are not that good right now, but hope by their sr. year they will be.
By the way, I do not need anybody to "straighten me out" as you said.
What you and a couple of your cowpokeass buddies need to do is run your ass back to the OSU board and try to think of a way to "straighten out" your program that was 12-20 or whatever the eff it was last year, and figure out how to keep your assistant coaches from making your 3rd rate shit stain baskettball program even less relevant. I can say this for certain, your coaches sure was some of the stupidest cheaters I have ever read about. You do all that shit, and finish 12-20. OSU is so dumb, they can't even cheat right.
By the way, I do not need anybody to "straighten me out" as you said.
What you and a couple of your cowpokeass buddies need to do is run your ass back to the OSU board and try to think of a way to "straighten out" your program that was 12-20 or whatever the eff it was last year, and figure out how to keep your assistant coaches from making your 3rd rate shit stain baskettball program even less relevant. I can say this for certain, your coaches sure was some of the stupidest cheaters I have ever read about. You do all that shit, and finish 12-20. OSU is so dumb, they can't even cheat right.
OSU needs a lot of Ifs to be good this year. I mean they can only go up from last year. MAYBE everything they need to happen, happens, then we are talking 22-10 / 21-11 type season ? If Cade is interested in that and wants to try his luck with some guys who are "pretty good", then I guess OSU is the place.
Definitely. And since Cade's brother is on the staff, Cade will know as soon as OSU knows.
When OSU gets their notice of allegations, my guess is OSU will do everything in their power to delay sanctions. They need to find loopholes and whatever strategies their lawyers can think of to keep next season sanction free. If they can guarantee that to Cade and other recruits, then they probably take the lead back and sign him.
I honestly don’t see anything big coming. We are minnows in this deal. Lamont did far more dirty dealing at South Carolina. Lamont was barely on campus a year
Seems like UK can provide more of what Cade is looking for than Oklahoma State:
UK VS. OKLAHOMA STATE
The Cowboys obviously have the family connection, but they’re coming off a losing record in their second season under head coach Mike Boynton and haven’t been to the NCAA Tournament since 2015. It’s been more than 10 years since Oklahoma State has won an NCAA Tournament game.
Cunningham has spoken of his desire to contend for a national title in what is likely to be his one season of college basketball, and his presence on UK’s 2020-21 squad would put the Wildcats at the forefront of the conversation for preseason No. 1 honors.
UK already has commitments from five-star shooting guards Terrence Clarke and Brandon “BJ” Boston, as well as four-star wing Cam’Ron Fletcher and four-star power forward Lance Ware.
The Cats are also expected to return several impact players from this season’s team, a list that could possibly include guys like Immanuel Quickley, Johnny Juzang, Keion Brooks and Dontaie Allen.
UK is certain to add a few more recruits to its 2020 class. Top targets include five-star forwards Greg Brown and Scottie Barnes, who have teamed up with Cunningham in AAU ball and high school, respectively.
Putting Cunningham — an early candidate to be the No. 1 pick in the 2021 NBA Draft — in charge of all of that talent on the court could make Kentucky the favorite for a national title a season from now.
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