Saying we won the Cold War is a PP attempt to validate what follows.
I don't hate Russia, but giving them part of Ukraine is just the beginning.
The Ukraine war. (Yes, we'll mind our manners)
- Thread starter BigBlueFanGA
- Start date
I don't hate Russia, but giving them part of Ukraine is just the beginning.
Well then he has the same chance of his argument being correct as that tiny, statistically non-zero chance that even he admits is farfetched. Not very compelling.
This is the batshit crazy part of it. The left wants to go to war with a nuclear armed Russia because they hate Trump so much. Insane!
You refuse to admit this was about a landbridge to Crimea. This was never about protecting ethnic Russians in the Donbas. If it was they would've just moved the border over, just like they're already claiming. The offensives in Kherson and Zaporizhzhia illustrate that, without even including the strikes on Kharkiv, Kiev, and Odessa. Putin was stirring up sectarian violence in the Donbas to justify a landgrab. Exactly like he did with South Ossetia and Abkhazia in Georgia in 2008.
We are asked to be there in almost every case. You really do hate this country dont you? Btw, its 80 countries.
He’s saying the risk is unacceptable. He’s telling you he doesn’t think nuclear war will happen but at the same time without as much certainty as if there were no war. Listen. I think we are on a collision course. It’s not like things are getting better. I mean the leftist think the planet is fd. They would be willing to push the world to nuclear war to depopulate and live their 500 million wet dream.
No I didn't, and no, it certainly isn't.
It's not farfetched.
You (pl.) don't understand the culture/people you are dealing with here. They (UKR or RuS) would absolutely call the whole game off for humanity if pressed into the corner. That's just one of the myriad of gross misunderstandings you pro-war lot are cocksure about.
But that's not why I am anti-war in Ukraine. They aren't going to accomplish anything there but needless death and destruction. Lots of lives will be lost or otherwise ruined for no just reason.
No they wouldn't. Not over this. If NATO tanks were rolling into Moscow and Putin was in a bunker somewhere sure. But that isn't happening and Russia will not blow up the world for Ukraine. The entire reason he's doing this is to leave a legacy and future for his country and people. He's making plans for the future, not looking to end it. Your analysis of their character and motivations is incorrect.
They want "revenge" for the indignation that was the Trump years, which they blame/associate with Putin.
(ignorantly associate, misplaced blame)
They certainly would blow up the world if they thought their world was under existential threat, but yeah, I know. I've read all that in the opinion editorials and thinktank articles too.
The narrative is designed to manufacture consent. That's the point.
The even crazier part is that the hatred of Trump via Russia was based on a Hillary Clinton-funded lie.
You have no idea what he’ll do or who is in his ear.
Maybe you should branch out & talk to some Ukrainians, you know and try to put yourself in their shoes and and try to understand what they believe they are fighting for. You won’t agree with it, but they believe they are accomplishing something and have a very just reason and might give you pause in your steadfast anti-war stance and help you understand.
Yeah I know, that right there is violent war talk and I secretly rejoice in mass bloodshed.
Very very concerning. That’s why I’m hesitant in sending Ukraine Reaper/Predator drones, Russia shoots one down and tries to reproduce it which gives them another asset in their military.I can't honestly parse out what's baked into those #'s -- but I think we all know that's not a good news report
Here's an AP Report from about 2 years ago where the problem was again pointed out and - "were trying to do something about it" kind of thing -- you DO get some examples of what types of things were.......lost
AP News Article on Lost Weapons
I will try to link others since I think I'd heard where an actual FMS (foreign military sale) to Pakistan (why?) resulted in arms being funneled elsewhere.....
Doesn't sound like very good. 'gun control' does it?
Flashback to 2007 just for fun - Biden states that "if you leave military weapons in Afghanistan...they will be used against your grandchildren"
C-SPAN Link
^^ only posting out the weird irony of that statement when compared to what's happened since we pulled out of Afghanistan recently -- links below detail arms left behind and some details on how they're moving around through other nations and proxies
________
EDITS for additional links on the topic:
Bakersfield Ch23 News - Stolen Military Arms and Street Crime
^ This one does make a link between lost/stolen military arms and street crime....also I LOVE how it shows where the weapons came from by service....the Army leads the way and the Air Force just gets thrown in with "OTHER"
Foreign Policy Link - Billions Left in Afghanistan
Here's the one that is most concerning -- the way we retreated fm Afghanistan was shameful - and the incredible amount of weapons left behind is staggering and inexcusable
(I've had a personal conversation or two with recently separate Marines that gave specifics on how they were ordered NOT to render the arms unusable NOR to guard their location as they planned to depart)
NBC News - Abandoned US Arms Used in India's Conflict
NBC reports 2 days ago that some of the items left in Afghanistan found their way to India and are being gainfully employed again......
Eurasian Times - US Weapons to Russia - Via Taliban?
And here's one that I'm seeing in a couple of places out there - unthinkable that those weapons might actually be working their way into the hands of the one nation that the West brands as their biggest threat etc - WILL LOOK FOR MORE ON THIS SINCE ITS THE FIRST IVE HEARD OF IT
The part about the Taliban seizing the weapons is DEFINITELY TRUE (Link below) -- we have to ask -- would they SELL THEM to outsiders (yes) - would they have qualms about selling them to Russia? (no) -- so the idea that our weapons may come back & be pointed at our own troops passes the sniff test IMO
WSJ - US Arms Seized by Taliban
An older article noting that Iran has started playing the role of intermediator -- for brokering arms sales between the Taliban and Russia
MEI.edu LInk
Finally -- what would the Taliban get in exchange for selling abandoned US arms to Russia?
Gas - Oil and Wheat .......and possibly the satisfaction of besting the US military again -- link below
Bloomberg Article - Taliban and Russia Trade Channels
Sir, with all due respect, you are a Jingo.
And you promised to be less belligerent on this thread, yet here you go with "you must really hate this country".
We weren't ASKED to attack Iraq, Serbia, Libya, etc by those nations, but it's perfectly OK when WE do it, right? Those Warhawks what most aggressively supported the utter destruction we wreaked on Iraq, a nation that never attacked us, are those what are the angriest at Russia. It's astonishing. I can't vote against warmongers in Russia. I can, and will, vote against warmongers in America. If you are angry about Russian aggression, that's fine, but what can you do? Why not instead oppose our own aggression, where your vote can actually make a difference?
Fishermen NEVER lie or exaggerate the size of their catch, what you talking about Willis? 😆Norris Lake in TN was always my spot when we hit the water locally
Still go there with my brother fairly often
I can't fish worth a damn though - pretty convinced ppl who have certain ways to become better fishers -- are a vast network of dirty lying whore-faces
![[laughing]](http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/img/emoticons/classic/laugh.r191677.gif "Laughing [laughing]")
I caught a 39.5’ pike last summer in Canada and told everyone it was 40, that’s not a lie is it, just a proper “round-up”?
Norris Lake is solid, some fun times there as well.
Belligerent? Really? I'm still waiting for that example of my out of control temper. Either you're as delicate as a snowflake or you're knowingly lying. Im guessing the latter.
Its cool that you've learned a new word that you think is discrediting in some way. If you want to call me a jingo because I have a strong opinion about Ukraine defending itself from an illegal invasion by a much larger and more powerful bully, ok by me.
I can only voice my opinion and vote, same as you.
Russia barely seems capable of building anything complex. Their new super tank broke down in their military parade. We could probably give them the blueprints and I doubt they'd get it right.
If I were them I'd be scared to death to ever push the go button on a nuke.
Accusing us as being Putin apologists because we don't want to give Ukraine a blank check is interesting. If I felt like Putin were a threat to the US I'd have a different take, but what's going on in Ukraine doesn't seem like it's my business.
I've asked others so now I'll ask you. Are you happy that France did so much to help us in our American Revolutionary War? So far I've never gotten an honest answer to the question.
Yes, I am happy that France, who had a big-time rooting interest in England not controlling the colonies, helped us in the Revolutionary War.
Are you actually suggesting that this is comparable? I guess it would be had we colonized Moldova a few years back. Oh wait, we didn't do that.
Moreover, do you think that France did that for us out of the kindness of their hearts?
Yes, it is quite comparable and no, they did it to poke their finger in England's eye. The difference here, primarily, is that we were not yet a sovereign state, Ukraine is. So we get to help a country being attacked by a world power, help them protect their sovereignty and poke our finger in Russia's eye.
What makes you think the situations aren't comparable?
Pretty good article in Foreign Affairs about the state of things inside Russia.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/how-russians-learned-stop-worrying-and-love-war
"Putin and his Kremlin ideologues love to talk about the West’s desire to wipe Russia off the map. For their part, they would like to see Russia take up a much bigger place on the map by building an enormous empire. They want a return to the distant past. The irony is that, as Russia has—at least in the Kremlin’s own imagined geography—expanded its physical extent in its brutal war against Ukraine, it has effectively disappeared from the political map.
The West once saw Russia as a country on the path to democracy. Now it regards it as an international pariah and a failed state. Russia’s former Soviet neighbors—members of the Commonwealth of Independent States—are frightened and have politely distanced themselves from Moscow; some of them are successfully exploiting the labor force that has fled Putin. (In 2022, 2.9 million Russians went to Kazakhstan (!) alone, and nearly 150,000 obtained identification papers needed to work there.) China and India, while remaining on friendly terms with Russia at the rhetorical and economic level, have watched in disbelief as Putin descends into a vortex of irrational self-destruction, taking his nation’s economy, workforce, dignity, and soft power with him."
and
"But what about taking responsibility for Putin’s meat grinder? Around May 2022, when it became clear that the war would not be over as quickly as planned—and Russians themselves were not yet directly ensnared in the fighting—the number of respondents who expressed a sense of moral responsibility for the deaths of people in Ukraine briefly increased. After that, however, it stabilized as a marginal phenomenon: currently, only about one in four Russians expresses some degree of responsibility for the war, and just one in ten Russians consider themselves “definitely” responsible. By contrast, about six out of ten absolve themselves of any responsibility whatsoever for the deaths of people from a fraternal nation in which many of them have relatives and acquaintances.
When people are being killed and cities and essential civilian infrastructure are being razed, disavowing responsibility is both infantile and amoral. But Russians’ acceptance of collective responsibility, not to mention guilt, will have to come later—if at all. For the foreseeable future, the brutal authoritarian regime under which they live imposes certain norms of behavior and has no intention of disappearing, toning down its repression and propaganda, or bringing an end to the war. Of course the obedient, if weary, population will accept with gratitude whatever the autocrat gives—even peace."
But of course, some here will tell you that Vlad the Imploder's invasion was fully justified and in response to NATO "aggression." Aggression is apparently defined as smaller countries deciding for themselves to orient themselves Westward instead of towards an increasingly authoritarian, backwater, shitpile of a country. That's what Russia has become, and it's a shame; the Russian people had achieved a lot both culturally and scientifically and deserve better. Their whole mindset as a nation has been cynically twisted towards a destructive and ultimately self-destructive end.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/how-russians-learned-stop-worrying-and-love-war
"Putin and his Kremlin ideologues love to talk about the West’s desire to wipe Russia off the map. For their part, they would like to see Russia take up a much bigger place on the map by building an enormous empire. They want a return to the distant past. The irony is that, as Russia has—at least in the Kremlin’s own imagined geography—expanded its physical extent in its brutal war against Ukraine, it has effectively disappeared from the political map.
The West once saw Russia as a country on the path to democracy. Now it regards it as an international pariah and a failed state. Russia’s former Soviet neighbors—members of the Commonwealth of Independent States—are frightened and have politely distanced themselves from Moscow; some of them are successfully exploiting the labor force that has fled Putin. (In 2022, 2.9 million Russians went to Kazakhstan (!) alone, and nearly 150,000 obtained identification papers needed to work there.) China and India, while remaining on friendly terms with Russia at the rhetorical and economic level, have watched in disbelief as Putin descends into a vortex of irrational self-destruction, taking his nation’s economy, workforce, dignity, and soft power with him."
and
"But what about taking responsibility for Putin’s meat grinder? Around May 2022, when it became clear that the war would not be over as quickly as planned—and Russians themselves were not yet directly ensnared in the fighting—the number of respondents who expressed a sense of moral responsibility for the deaths of people in Ukraine briefly increased. After that, however, it stabilized as a marginal phenomenon: currently, only about one in four Russians expresses some degree of responsibility for the war, and just one in ten Russians consider themselves “definitely” responsible. By contrast, about six out of ten absolve themselves of any responsibility whatsoever for the deaths of people from a fraternal nation in which many of them have relatives and acquaintances.
When people are being killed and cities and essential civilian infrastructure are being razed, disavowing responsibility is both infantile and amoral. But Russians’ acceptance of collective responsibility, not to mention guilt, will have to come later—if at all. For the foreseeable future, the brutal authoritarian regime under which they live imposes certain norms of behavior and has no intention of disappearing, toning down its repression and propaganda, or bringing an end to the war. Of course the obedient, if weary, population will accept with gratitude whatever the autocrat gives—even peace."
But of course, some here will tell you that Vlad the Imploder's invasion was fully justified and in response to NATO "aggression." Aggression is apparently defined as smaller countries deciding for themselves to orient themselves Westward instead of towards an increasingly authoritarian, backwater, shitpile of a country. That's what Russia has become, and it's a shame; the Russian people had achieved a lot both culturally and scientifically and deserve better. Their whole mindset as a nation has been cynically twisted towards a destructive and ultimately self-destructive end.
I bet if I went to Reddit right now, there’d be dozens of autistic virgins parroting the talking point that us supporting Ukraine is like France supporting the colonies in the revolutionary war.
It reeks like one of the standard talking points that gets blasted out by the social medial bot farms, then repeated by the narrative pushers without ever giving it an ounce of critical thought.
Here's a good one. The US estimates that over 100K Russians have been killed but provides zero data on how they came up with that. What do you put the over/under at for deaths on both sides? Everybody is freaking lying to us. It's maddening. Yet journalists aren't even trying any more. Hell, CNN calls it "Putin's War". That's just pure propaganda and should be reserved for Opinion pages. It's not like CNN refers to WWII as Hitler's War.
It was Hitlers war as far as Europe was concerned and this is most certainly Putins war. He's about the only one who wanted it and continues it.
The people that haven't fled Russia have fallen into line like the Germans to Hitler. Straightforward analogy.
Sounds like you spend too much time there. I don't. Using your critical thought process, which is highly advanced, I admit, explain how it's different.
Surely, you can't be that dense, man. It's Putin's war b/c he started it; it's the nation HE leads invading another. WW2 was a global conflict involving multiple countries. Early on, especially in Europe, it was often referred to as Hitler's war, and articles made reference to "Hitler's war machine."
https://www.britannica.com/place/Germany/World-War-II
No, you don't secretly rejoice in mass bloodshed, you believe it an acceptable means to a crucial geopolitical end.
(which it isn't, it's neither acceptable nor is it a critical geopolitical end for Americans)
It's not necessary for me to mischaracterize your position like it is for you all in the pro-war camp. The rest of your post is essentially the exact opposite of what's actually true.
Oh yeah? What’s not true about it? Do you have some secret poll or survey that proves that Ukrainians overwhelmingly want to put down their arms and allow a large portion of their country or all of it to be controlled by Russia for the sake of “peace”? I’m all ears
It’s not a crucial geopolitical end for me, but rather for the country that got invaded.
