The Ukraine war. (Yes, we'll mind our manners)

[JumperJack]

A huge issue with Ukraine is grain exports. Wouldn't it be fun for everyone for Russia to control the combined exports of Ukraine plus their own. Ah, what am I saying. They'd never hold the world hostage over food. I'm not in a hurry to allow them access to Ukraines titanium either. Then they have incredible natural gas reserves.

Ukraine is important on its own and even more important to keep away from Russia.

Are Ukraine's vast natural resources a real reason behind Russia's invasion?

Ukraine's geostrategic position has rendered it susceptible to the ongoing strains between Russia and the West.

www.google.com

So now the United States will spend ourselves into oblivion to subsidize global markets?

We have gas. We have grain. We can trade things for titanium.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Ukraine will fall without intervention. Hopefully, you won’t be able to sell the country on sending our troops to war.

No one is interested in our troops going there. The next best option is supplying them with the tools they need.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

I would take anything leading to a cease fire. Giving us time to hopefully have the US in a better position at the leadership level to deal with Putin. And Zelensky probably needs to go.

How arrogant. The Ukrainians need to decide when its time for Zelensky to go.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

So now the United States will spend ourselves into oblivion to subsidize global markets?

We have gas. We have grain. We can trade things for titanium.

As I told you at the beginning of the war, you have your comfortable house, a nice recliner, big screen tv and cold beer in the fridge.

You're good and comfy, screw Ukraine.

 

[bcw1029]

Another Russian Goodwill Gesture/Retreat

 

[bcw1029]

No one is interested in our troops going there. The next best option is supplying them with the tools they need.

This has to be repeatedly explained to certain folks in this thread. Not very hard to understand.

 

[Bill Cosby]

How arrogant. The Ukrainians need to decide when its time for Zelensky to go.

How do they do that if he bans opposition and cancels elections?

 

[SDC888]

 

[SDC888]

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

How do they do that if he bans opposition and cancels elections?

He hasn't banned opposition, he's banned pro-russians. We've never been in Ukraine’s position but we made some difficult decisions in the 1864 election. No electoral votes were counted from the confederate states.

Once this is over, if Zelensky doesn't resume normal elections then we'll have something to criticize.

 

[Bill Cosby]

He hasn't banned opposition, he's banned pro-russians. We've never been in Ukraine’s position but we made some difficult decisions in the 1864 election. No electoral votes were counted from the confederate states.

Once this is over, if Zelensky doesn't resume normal elections then we'll have something to criticize.

Oh. Ok. Well I guess thankfully you guys don’t label anyone and everyone who dares criticize Ukraine a “poutin Putin” supporter and will only be banning actual Russia supporters.

“The Ukrainians need to decide when it’s time for Zelensky to go”, but you support Zelensky canceling elections where they’d be able to do that and banning people from participation in the political process who oppose him.

Do you understand how absurd that sounds to a lot of us? Probably not, you’ll just call us Russia supporters and hope Zelensky bans us from the conversation.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Oh. Ok. Well I guess thankfully you guys don’t label anyone and everyone who dares criticize Ukraine a “poutin Putin” supporter and will only be banning actual Russia supporters.

“The Ukrainians need to decide when it’s time for Zelensky to go”, but you support Zelensky canceling elections where they’d be able to do that and banning people from participation in the political process who oppose him.

Do you understand how absurd that sounds to a lot of us? Probably not, you’ll just call us Russia supporters and hope Zelensky bans us from the conversation.

As I said, we've never been in their shoes but I understand what they're doing. They have a fragile new system that needs time to mature. You'll criticize everything they do because it isn't like us. Well, they aren't us.

Only a simpleton would allow opposition parties who support the country now invading them.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

If Russia is allowed to take the Donbas, they will slowly but surely take all of Ukraine. It cannot be allowed.

“It cannot be allowed” sure sounds like troops have to be sent at some point.

No one is interested in our troops going there. The next best option is supplying them with the tools they need.

Give Ukraine our best armaments?

 

[Bill Cosby]

As I said, we've never been in their shoes but I understand what they're doing. They have a fragile new system that needs time to mature. You'll criticize everything they do because it isn't like us. Well, they aren't us.

Only a simpleton would allow opposition parties who support the country now invading them.

I get it. Young democracies are fragile. Sometimes you have to ban all opposition, consolidate all media outlets into one government controlled outlet and cancel elections to ensure democracy can flourish.

It’s not all that different than the steps the Biden administration is taking to jail political opposition, spy on opponents and illegally control media outlets to ensure “democracy” can flourish.

 

[JumperJack]

As I told you at the beginning of the war, you have your comfortable house, a nice recliner, big screen tv and cold beer in the fridge.

You're good and comfy, screw Ukraine.

What I have, or you have, is not what smart policy decisions are based on.

But I can assure you: none of us will have those things once our debt destroys the economy. It’s now not a matter of if, but when.

 

[JumperJack]

Only a simpleton would allow opposition parties who support the country now invading them.

Even the Democrats had a POTUS candidate in 1864.

So now we are to go broke in support of a banana republic on the steppes?

 

[SDC888]

The banning of pro-Russian political parties was the removal of the then primary opposition in parliament. If Ukraine was actually as monolithically anti-russian as your unbiased think tanks keep telling you, they'd just vote them out.

 

[vhcat70]

I get it. Young democracies are fragile. Sometimes you have to ban all opposition, consolidate all media outlets into one government controlled outlet and cancel elections to ensure democracy can flourish.

It’s not all that different than the steps the Biden administration is taking to jail political opposition, spy on opponents and illegally control media outlets to ensure “democracy” can flourish.

So the US is a young democracy like Ukraine? One hell of a false comparison.

 

[vhcat70]

What I have, or you have, is not what smart policy decisions are based on.

But I can assure you: none of us will have those things once our debt destroys the economy. It’s now not a matter of if, but when.

Which is unrelated to Russia's War. But whatever.

 

[vhcat70]

Even the Democrats had a POTUS candidate in 1864.

So now we are to go broke in support of a banana republic on the steppes?

The Democrats opposed the existence of the USA in 1864? You're off your rocker.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

“It cannot be allowed” sure sounds like troops have to be sent at some point.

Give Ukraine our best armaments?

Interpret how you wish, I've already responded to that.

Our best? I didn't say that, you just did.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

I get it. Young democracies are fragile. Sometimes you have to ban all opposition, consolidate all media outlets into one government controlled outlet and cancel elections to ensure democracy can flourish.

It’s not all that different than the steps the Biden administration is taking to jail political opposition, spy on opponents and illegally control media outlets to ensure “democracy” can flourish.

Oh good grief. So you think they should allow media sources and opposition parties strongly tied to the country invading them, destroying their cities and trying to steal their land?

Your complaint stems from our comfort. Walk in their shoes for a while, then be a smartass.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

What I have, or you have, is not what smart policy decisions are based on.

But I can assure you: none of us will have those things once our debt destroys the economy. It’s now not a matter of if, but when.

We can agree on that. Ukraine isn't the real problem though. Its a literal drop in the bucket. Also a full analysis would have to be run to determine the overall effect of buying American made equipment to send to Ukraine. That part of the money circulates in our economy.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Even the Democrats had a POTUS candidate in 1864.

So now we are to go broke in support of a banana republic on the steppes?

Yes, a union candidate. Lincoln considered the confederate states as still being in the United States but yet the confederate states were not all I wed to participate in the 1864 election.

Special situations require special rules.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

The banning of pro-Russian political parties was the removal of the then primary opposition in parliament. If Ukraine was actually as monolithically anti-russian as your unbiased think tanks keep telling you, they'd just vote them out.

Wow you're amazingly obtuse.

 

[Bill Cosby]

Oh good grief. So you think they should allow media sources and opposition parties strongly tied to the country invading them, destroying their cities and trying to steal their land?

Your complaint stems from our comfort. Walk in their shoes for a while, then be a smartass.

You called someone arrogant for saying it was time for Zelensky to go, and said the Ukrainian people should decide.

But you now defend Zelensky for canceling elections and banning people that disagree with him.

Just pointing out your hypocrisy. You don’t actually think the Ukrainian people should decide anything, displaying the arrogance you accused the other poster of showing.

 

[bcw1029]

You like your personal wars to be against strawmen. Enjoy your fictional battles.

Personal wars?

Your other question - predict Ukraine’s victory and when? Don’t know how one could possibly answer that question. Many variables involved. Maybe the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff can pull a crystal ball out of his ass and tell us.

The F16’s they are getting this winter after their pilots complete training in Romania could provide the crucial air support they desperately need.

 

[JumperJack]

Personal wars?

Your other question - predict Ukraine’s victory and when? Don’t know how one could possibly answer that question. Many variables involved. Maybe the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff can pull a crystal ball out of his ass and tell us.

The F16’s they are getting this winter after their pilots complete training in Romania could provide the crucial air support they desperately need.

I think it’s completely reasonable to ask what will happen first: our debt collapses our economy or Ukraine takes back all their territory.

Any takers?

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Our best? I didn't say that, you just did.

What do they need to defeat Russia?

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Personal wars?

The wars you have here, as example. No one, that I am aware, but especially not me said (or assumed - just to address the apparent paranoia):

“ people in this thread that follow daily front line updates are bloodthirsty spectators that get off on death is ridiculous - even for you.”

Strawman.

The fact is that spectators who want this war to continue are people without any real skin in the fight. It’s easy to be an armchair war strategist when no one in your family or community is among the 100s of 1000s dead.

Your other question - predict Ukraine’s victory and when? Don’t know how one could possibly answer that question. Many variables involved. Maybe the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff can pull a crystal ball out of his ass and tell us.

The F16’s they are getting this winter after their pilots complete training in Romania could provide the crucial air support they desperately need.

When you want people to finance another war, at some point, I believe, people will need to see that victory is possible. There has been a lot of spin in that direction over the past 1.5 years, but no real substance. If there is no real movement in the spring, the non-warring countries’ citizens are likely to want out. We are seeing that right now.

If the jets don’t make a difference, Ukraine may have lost its leverage for a negotiated end.

 

[bcw1029]

The wars you have here, as example. No one, that I am aware, but especially not me said (or assumed - just to address the apparent paranoia):

“ people in this thread that follow daily front line updates are bloodthirsty spectators that get off on death is ridiculous - even for you.”

Strawman.

No one is paranoid.

“War is a hobby for some. Usually not the ones who have guns and missiles pointed at them”.

That implies certain folks/posters enjoy war^. I’ve called for peace talks in previous posts that are NOT on Russia’s terms, hope I’m wrong but the prospects looks bleak.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

You called someone arrogant for saying it was time for Zelensky to go, and said the Ukrainian people should decide.

But you now defend Zelensky for canceling elections and banning people that disagree with him.

Just pointing out your hypocrisy. You don’t actually think the Ukrainian people should decide anything, displaying the arrogance you accused the other poster of showing.

His approval rating is very high. If the people turned on him he would have no choice but go. This isn't the US where idiots like Biden are protected above anything else.

Again, Ukrainians will decide, either through an election or not.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

What do they need to defeat Russia?

I don't know and neither do you but regardless, we aren't sending them our newest technology.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

The wars you have here, as example. No one, that I am aware, but especially not me said (or assumed - just to address the apparent paranoia):

“ people in this thread that follow daily front line updates are bloodthirsty spectators that get off on death is ridiculous - even for you.”

Strawman.

The fact is that spectators who want this war to continue are people without any real skin in the fight. It’s easy to be an armchair war strategist when no one in your family or community is among the 100s of 1000s dead.




When you want people to finance another war, at some point, I believe, people will need to see that victory is possible. There has been a lot of spin in that direction over the past 1.5 years, but no real substance. If there is no real movement in the spring, the non-warring countries’ citizens are likely to want out. We are seeing that right now.

If the jets don’t make a difference, Ukraine may have lost its leverage for a negotiated end.

You're inferring that we are making Ukraine fight which is an absolute lie.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

No one is paranoid.

“War is a hobby for some. Usually not the ones who have guns and missiles pointed at them”.

That implies certain folks/posters enjoy war^. I’ve called for peace talks in previous posts that are NOT on Russia’s terms, hope I’m wrong but the prospects looks bleak.

I'd love for a fair peace treaty to work but Russia has violated every agreement for peace they've had with Ukraine. I have zero faith that any new treaty would be honored by Russia.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

No one is paranoid.

“War is a hobby for some. Usually not the ones who have guns and missiles pointed at them”.

That implies certain folks/posters enjoy war^. I’ve called for peace talks in previous posts that are NOT on Russia’s terms, hope I’m wrong but the prospects looks bleak.

You can say no one is paranoid, but you just quoted a post that made no reference to you, individually, to defend yourself from the comment in the post.

The post quoted, in fact, states that most people who make war a hobby are not the people actually in the battle. It does not say they are bloodthirsty. Nothing in your response posts has changed my mind.

As to peace, negotiations are a compromise that involve both side’s terms. Most compromised resolutions include terms for each side. If you don’t want a peace that includes some of Russia’s terms, I don’t think you truly want negotiated peace.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I don't know and neither do you but regardless, we aren't sending them our newest technology.

Then your response to my original question is meaningless. Ukraine needs more, but we don’t know what they need. We just know we won’t send them our newest tech. That does not make sense to me. It’s just another way of saying you have no clue as to the question.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

You're inferring that we are making Ukraine fight which is an absolute lie.

You inferred that. Not sure how, but the inference is yours, not mine. “We” are not making Ukraine fight. “We” are perpetuating the fight. And, I have not said that, in the short term, that is a bad thing. Rather, if you read my comments in this thread, I think that is only a bad thing if we cannot get the war resolved. Resolution could have come by a Ukraine “victory,” which I assume would have meant a Russian withdrawal. Our “investment” would have been a positive, had that happened. Instead, there appears to be a bit of a stalemate, which appears to favor Russia over Ukraine. That was not unforeseen. It was what many of us predicted.

So, our “investment” should resolve the war in some other fashion. Namely, a negotiated resolution that saves Ukraine and Russia from even more death and destruction.

If trained pilots and fighter jets mean more death for Russia, as you suggest, now may be a time to come to the table, as that provides leverage. I think “we” had many opportunities in the past to broker a deal. Those opportunities may be fading. If so, a Ukraine victory seems unlikely. A Russian victory seems far more likely.

I would think a comprise that keeps a Ukraine in existence is better for NATO than one that ends with Russia occupying all of current Ukraine.

 

[bcw1029]

You can say no one is paranoid, but you just quoted a post that made no reference to you, individually, to defend yourself from the comment in the post.

The post quoted, in fact, states that most people who make war a hobby are not the people actually in the battle. It does not say they are bloodthirsty. Nothing in your response posts has changed my mind.

As to peace, negotiations are a compromise that involve both side’s terms. Most compromised resolutions include terms for each side. If you don’t want a peace that includes some of Russia’s terms, I don’t think you truly want negotiated peace.

So who are these people that “make war a hobby?” Maybe stop being so vague and give examples.

Your post that Ukraine “will fall without intervention” comes across as very uninformed and ignorant, considering foreign troops (minus the Foreign Legion) were never engaged to defend Kyiv during the early days of the war or during the Kharkiv offensive which liberated a lot of territory.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

So who are these people that “make war a hobby?” Maybe stop being so vague and give examples.

Are you rejecting that some people make war a hobby? Is that your dispute?

Your post that Ukraine “will fall without intervention” comes across as very uninformed and ignorant, considering foreign troops (minus the Foreign Legion) were never engaged to defend Kyiv during the early days of the war or during the Kharkiv offensive which liberated a lot of territory.

You say ignorant and ill-informed. Do you anticipate other governments financially supporting Ukraine indefinitely? Because I do not. And, if that support wanes, do you believe Ukraine will be able to continue to keep Russia at bay? If so, we disagree.