The Ukraine war. (Yes, we'll mind our manners)

[SDC888]

I guess ol' SDC has me on ignore, LOL. He's flailing about with y'all but nary a peep in reply to my most recent posts.

It's simply because what I've read from you is some of the most remarkably obtuse stuff I've ever read in my life and I'm not interested in engaging that. And I don't mean that as an insult; I have absolutely no interest in insulting people, and no, that's not some virtue signal or whining or whatever else nonsense. I simply find it stupid and childish, an "I know you are but what am I!" BS that's not conducive to substantive discourse, as I've already told you.

But ok, I'll actually take some time to explain myself to you, something I'm reticent to do. To illustrate what I mean by remarkably obtuse, so it's less confrontational, I'll use someone else's remarkably obtuse post in this thread who probably won't read this. He stated that what's happening daily in Ukraine is worse than what happened on 10/7. There were over some ~1k civilian deahts murders that day, while there has been some 8k civilian deaths in Ukraine in ~500 days. FOr it to be the case tha't what happening in Ukraine daily to be "worse," there would have to be over 500k civilian deaths: so what happened that day is not less than what happens in Ukraine, but some 60 times worse than what happens daily in Ukraine. But the simple math of it is not what makes the hyberbolic "argument" so obtuse, it's the fact that he is conflating the two like they are the sameas the Ukrainian propaganda is incentivized to portray. Hamas is a terrorist organisatoin fighting an ideological war, while Russia is a country fighting, right or wrong (yes, wrongly), for its perceived strategic interests. A war fought for nationalistic reasons over land is not the same as one fought over religious ideology where one side explicitly believes in the extermination of the other, no matter how hard Ukrainian propaganda has tried to make it out as such, it's simply not true.

No, none of it was "flailing." It all illustrates my overall point that you (general) are dismissing relevant information so as to maintina your "argument," which is ultimately not actually coherent. Your recent posts that received "nary a peep"from me are no less obtuse than the analogue I just outlined, and indeed butress my argument that competent diplomacy shoudl've avoided the war. Can you figure out why? (and no, I'm not attacking your intelligence, as you people are so wont to do in this thread. I don't think you are dumb or lacking character, necessarily at least. The other guy I know is more capable of critical thinking, so maybe it's just motivation or a desire to deceive. Neverhtless, I have no interest in engaging such people, but I particularly have no interest in engaging people who know for certain are bereft of character and moral fibre, as I know he is. Itt doesn't surprise meone second he would come here to post a pro-war straw man argument. )

 

[JumperJack]

Accepting reality in Ukraine becomes even more imperative now that a situation that actually has a strategic effect on the US is unfolding.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Accepting reality in Ukraine becomes even more imperative now that a situation that actually has a strategic effect on the US is unfolding.

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This cannot be true. Russia is reeling. Right?

 

[SDC888]

💯

 

[JumperJack]

This cannot be true. Russia is reeling. Right?

I just cannot see letting this war drag on with so little for us to gain while we may have an all-out Mid-East war brewing.

For those of you in this thread that have disagreed with me, do you still feel we have the capability and the economic power to fight one war while financing two? With East Asia waiting in the wings?

 

[vhcat70]

^ I guess you can, but I'm not picking one country over the other. They are both fighting for their survival. I'm willing to help both. Giving up on either encourages more bad behaviors. As for "so little to gain", what do we gain in Israel?

 

[vhcat70]

Accepting reality in Ukraine becomes even more imperative now that a situation that actually has a strategic effect on the US is unfolding.

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You'd have to show me where we said $100B would push Russia out. I thought it was to save Ukraine as an independent country with democratic aspirations.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

^ I guess you can, but I'm not picking one country over the other. They are both fighting for their survival. I'm willing to help both. Giving up on either encourages more bad behaviors. as for "so little to gain", what do we gain in Israel?

One can win its current war. One cannot. The one that cannot should be aided in its survival by leadership who can bring about a resolution to the war. Meanwhile, liberals only call on the attacked Israel to compromise. Telling.

 

[JumperJack]

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Is it news to anyone that Ukraine cannot win this war, but that only greedy individuals will “win” because of the war? Is that news?

 

[vhcat70]

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So now you believe left-wing Time?

 

[vhcat70]

"Mr. Johnson recently signaled that he supports aid to Ukraine and the U.S.: “We can’t allow Vladimir Putin to prevail in Ukraine, because I don’t believe it would stop there.” He said China might then make a play for Taiwan. He’s right, and credit to him for political courage given that support for Ukraine is toxic in about half the Republican conference.

The new Speaker can help the GOP assemble a position on Ukraine that addresses the concerns Members claim to have: That Mr. Biden lacks a plan to end the war; U.S. financial aid is paying bureaucratic salaries in Kyiv; no one knows where American weapons and money are ending up. A House bill could focus on lethal aid and trim the financial support that the European Union is stepping up to provide. Aid for Ukraine is already examined by several inspectors general, but the House is free to add more scrutiny.

President Biden has too often offered Ukraine enough weapons to tread water but not enough to prevail. The political high ground for Republicans is to insist on victory, which means pushing Russia back to its pre-invasion borders or further. Force Mr. Biden to transfer the long-range Army tactical missile system at scale. Give the Administration a deadline for procuring 1,000 more missiles. This is better politics than no House offer, which sets up the House to be cornered by the White House and Senate at crunch time."

Perhaps Ukraine can't retake lost ground. But it sure as hell ought to be helped to stop Russia for the long-run.

Opinion | The Ukraine-Israel Test for U.S. Democracy

Can Washington still function to provide military aid to allies fighting for their survival?

www.wsj.com

 

[vhcat70]

"Ukraine’s commander-in-chief has conceded that there have been few gains in Ukraine’s five-month long counteroffensive to retake Russian-occupied territory.

Likening the current state of conflict to World War I, in which battles were often fought over a few miles of territory at the expense of huge numbers of men, Ukraine’s General Valery Zaluzhny said the war had reached an impasse.

“There will most likely be no deep and beautiful breakthrough,” he told The Economist magazine in an interview published Thursday."

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Russians using unarmored trucks from the 1930s which were stolen from a museum is a sign that they winning.

This is right up there with Ukraine soldiers saving cats from trees etc. Amazing anyone believes this out of hand

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Of course because they don't want to win. Winning is a dumb idea because it cuts off their money. Staying in the battle till the money finally runs out is the real goal and so far that's working like a charm

 

[bcw1029]

This is right up there with Ukraine soldiers saving cats from trees etc. Amazing anyone believes this out of hand

Yeah you’re right. Russians would never dream of using obsolete or very old equipment. My bad 🙄🙄

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Russians using unarmored trucks from the 1930s which were stolen from a museum is a sign that they winning.

And the Ukraine is not winning?

 

[bcw1029]

And the Ukraine is not winning?

Based on what metrics? The amount of territory gained or lost? Do you have hard data that Russia has gained new territory?

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Based on what metrics? The amount of territory gained or lost? Do you have hard data that Russia has gained new territory?

Are you adding questions to my question? Or, are you suggesting Ukraine is winning, by any metric?

 

[WayneDougan]

Perhaps Ukraine can't retake lost ground. But it sure as hell ought to be helped to stop Russia for the long-run.

Opinion | The Ukraine-Israel Test for U.S. Democracy

Can Washington still function to provide military aid to allies fighting for their survival?

www.wsj.com

Nah, I'm good. And why do you dickheads insist on saying everything's about democracy all the time? China could nuke Taiwan and Russia could put Zelensky's head on a pike and it wouldn't impact "our democracy" one bit.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

BTW, if posters here think Ukraine is winning by holding ground or only losing a bit more, we all know Ukraine is doomed. Support for financing Ukraine, as we said months ago, will wane and dry up. We see those voices growing right now. If they cannot actually win this war, the money won’t be there for them to wear Russia out. That is why I have been saying a negotiated resolution before that moment is best for the Ukraine people.

 

[WayneDougan]

BTW, if posters here think Ukraine is winning by holding ground or only losing a bit more, we all know Ukraine is doomed. Support for financing Ukraine, as we said months ago, will wane and dry up. We see those voices growing right now. If they cannot actually win this war, the money won’t be there for them to wear Russia out. That is why I have been saying a negotiated resolution before that moment is best for the Ukraine people.

I don't think Ukraine is doomed. I want there to be peace and I want Ukraine to stay Ukraine. But we also need to understand what's a reasonable and likely outcome given the current circumstances.

1. Each dollar we send them is leading to more loss of life of people who are likely innocent (both Ukrainians and Russians)
2. We can't "totally defeat" Russia because they have the capability to blow up half the world if things get too dire. It sucks, but it's reality.
3. We shouldn't be pushing Russia closer to China & Iran over Ukraine. Ukraine is not that strategic for us.

My view would be we do a reset, acknowledge the reality of the situation, get Russia and Ukraine back to the bargaining table, and end the f'ing war.

As for you "Americans" who think that the only acceptable outcome is that Ukraine gets all its land back... well, I bet 99.9% of you wouldn't be able to tell the difference where the new border will be drawn.

 

[bcw1029]

Are you adding questions to my question? Or, are you suggesting Ukraine is winning, by any metric?

Well, the initial mission and goal of the “Special Military Operation” was to absorb 100% of Ukrainian territory. Considering that goal failed and they hold about 18%, it’s safe to say Russia is not “winning.” Ukrainians have now recently established bridgeheads across the Dnipro in Kherson oblast and are close to moving heavy armor across which is a pretty big deal.

Could they be at a temporary stalemate and have the lines not moved much? Sure. A negotiated settlement and peace talks may happen down the road, but we’re probably not there yet.

 

[JumperJack]

Well, the initial mission and goal of the “Special Military Operation” was to absorb 100% of Ukrainian territory. Considering that goal failed and they hold about 18%, it’s safe to say Russia is not “winning.” Ukrainians have now recently established bridgeheads across the Dnipro in Kherson oblast and are close to moving heavy armor across which is a pretty big deal.

Could they be at a temporary stalemate and have the lines not moved much? Sure. A negotiated settlement and peace talks may happen down the road, but we’re probably not there yet.

Come on bcw. You’re talking about very minor gains at tremendous cost. They’re like one of us trying to move a sumo wrestler- it ain’t happening.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Well, the initial mission and goal of the “Special Military Operation” was to absorb 100% of Ukrainian territory. Considering that goal failed and they hold about 18%, it’s safe to say Russia is not “winning.” Ukrainians have now recently established bridgeheads across the Dnipro in Kherson oblast and are close to moving heavy armor across which is a pretty big deal.

Could they be at a temporary stalemate and have the lines not moved much? Sure. A negotiated settlement and peace talks may happen down the road, but we’re probably not there yet.

Ukraine is on the clock. Russia? Not so much. A negotiated resolution saves lives and saves an independent Ukraine.

 

[bcw1029]

Come on bcw. You’re talking about very minor gains at tremendous cost. They’re like one of us trying to move a sumo wrestler- it ain’t happening.

lol not minor at all. Russia will have to reassess where to pull forces and equipment from the heavily manned Zaporizhzhia or Donetsk fronts to fortify here- wouldn’t be shocked if there’s a breakthrough in this space in the near future.

 

[RunninRichie]

BTW, if posters here think Ukraine is winning by holding ground or only losing a bit more, we all know Ukraine is doomed. Support for financing Ukraine, as we said months ago, will wane and dry up. We see those voices growing right now. If they cannot actually win this war, the money won’t be there for them to wear Russia out. That is why I have been saying a negotiated resolution before that moment is best for the Ukraine people.

Vladmir Putin, is that you?

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Vladmir Putin, is that you?

Einstein is that you?

 

[SDC888]

Well, the initial mission and goal of the “Special Military Operation” was to absorb 100% of Ukrainian territory.

And who was it who told you that? 🤔

 

[Caveman Catfan]

@RunninRichie - explain to us how Ukraine maintaining the status quo will lead to Ukraine’s victory. Do you think the American people will be agreeable to the continuation of billions upon billions in perpetuity? Do you think the Ukrainians will want to continue to die for that? Which side does that favor? If the money and equipment flow stops, what happens in that war?

Channel your inner Zelensky, but be honest.

 

[bcw1029]

And who was it who told you that? 🤔

Don’t need anyone to tell me anything. Are you trying to rewrite history by stating taking Kyiv and other regions was never part of Putin’s plan?

 

[SDC888]

Don’t need anyone to tell me anything. Are you trying to rewrite history by stating taking Kyiv and other regions was never part of Putin’s plan?

No.

I'm not rewriting history. Who told you what his plan was? 🤔

 

[RunninRichie]

Einstein is that you?

You sound verbatim to Putin. He's banking on people like you in western governments to stop supporting Ukraine. It's pretty funny. I'm sure in a few years it'll come out this was all a Russian pysop to trick MAGA republicans.

 

[RunninRichie]

And who was it who told you that? 🤔

Gee I don't know. maybe Russia pushing to Kyiv in February? And their stated goal to get rid of nazis in Ukraine. No, not just eastern Ukraine. All of Ukraine. How soon we forget.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

You sound verbatim to Putin. He's banking on people like you in western governments to stop supporting Ukraine. It's pretty funny. I'm sure in a few years it'll come out this was all a Russian pysop to trick MAGA republicans.

Yeah, I am sure that is exactly what will come out in a few years. 🙄 hilarious psyops. Did you read a Hillary memo about that?

You may want to find a few MAGA republicans and ask them. We will wait.

 

[SDC888]

Gee I don't know. maybe Russia pushing to Kyiv in February? And their stated goal to get rid of nazis in Ukraine. No, not just eastern Ukraine. All of Ukraine. How soon we forget.

le sigh

 

[RunninRichie]

Yeah, I am sure that is exactly what will come out in a few years. 🙄 hilarious psyops. Did you read a Hillary memo about that?

You may want to find a few MAGA republicans and ask them. We will wait.

I'm talking to one right now.

 

[SDC888]

I'm talking to one right now.

You people, man....

 

[RunninRichie]

You people, man....

Lol. Go on, call me a leftist. Or a liberal. Do your parties bidding. All knowing based anti-soviet beast.

 

[SDC888]

Lol. Go on, call me a leftist. Or a liberal. Do your parties bidding. All knowing based anti-soviet beast.

I don't have a party.

(the reason(s) conservatives or libertarians are against the war has absolutely zero to do with some Ruski psyop, propaganda trick, or some other conspiracy theory)

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I'm talking to one right now.

This is evidence of your delusion and a reason for people to understand your posting in this thread is a joke.

[Edit] in fact, I now believe your conspiracy mind actually believes I am Putin.