The Ukraine war. (Yes, we'll mind our manners)

[SDC888]

The only way to get first hand information from the Russian controlled areas is through Russian approved reporters... those will be by definition propagandists, because if they don't toe the line, they wouldn't be there.

What she said in the posts I linked is nevertheless true.

 

[bcw1029]

It’s a poor analogy because you say so? Spending billions is contributing to our debt. Period. Prove me wrong.

You don’t have a clear understanding of how the aid works. And if you think cancelling Ukraine aid is going to have a meaningful impact on the debt, well it won’t.

 

[RunninRichie]

 

[Caveman Catfan]

You don’t have a clear understanding of how the aid works. And if you think cancelling Ukraine aid is going to have a meaningful impact on the debt, well it won’t.

well, there you have it. You understand and I don’t. I suspect that if you give your neighbor your lawn mower and all of your gas, you aren’t out a nickel. Is that how it works? I wonder, then, why Biden thinks aid needs to be part of his budget. Maybe he needs an edumacation too.

The “economists” in the room who won’t reduce any budget item because that budget item won’t have a “meaningful impact.” Gotcha.

We want war and well get war, gosh darn it!

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Now show us NATO’s financial contributors and percent of GDP for military and contribution to the UN and …

And, if the claim is Russia is a threat to European countries, then why would the U.S. contribute as much as those European countries?

 

[Spica Orbit]

War as an "Investment"

The Bizarre Business-Speak of Mass Killing

bracingviews.substack.com

 

[Spica Orbit]

This Proxy War Can't Be Both 'Unprovoked' AND A Great Strategic Investment

Listen to a reading of this article (reading by Tim Foley):

www.caitlinjohnst.one

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

It was an ad hominem that followed an ad hominem. You dismissed his source by merely calling her a Russian propagandist and then sealed the deal with name calling. I am sure you are a good smart dude, but that was useless.

Wrong on her. I posted an article with a good listing of her history. She is absolutely known as a pro Russian propagandist. I really isn't even debatable.

SCD does this over and over. His info comes from all right sources and/or pro Russia sources.

I still disagree about that being an ad hominem statement, but so be it.

 

[SDC888]

This Proxy War Can't Be Both 'Unprovoked' AND A Great Strategic Investment

Listen to a reading of this article (reading by Tim Foley):

www.caitlinjohnst.one

She states it very well here, expounding upon one of the myriad of logically incoherent propositions integral to the pro-war argument.

We are asked to believe a lot of very stupid things by the propagandists of the US-centralized empire, but one of the very stupidest is the claim that this war simultaneously (A) was completely unprovoked, and (B) just coincidentally happens to massively advance US strategic interests.

It really cannot be both. If you accept that this war is a very low-cost, high-reward means for the US to advance its strategic interests overseas, then you’d have to have tapioca for brains to also believe that the US wouldn’t have gone out of its way to make sure the war happens. And indeed that’s exactly what occurred, which is why US intelligence operatives and western foreign policy analysts spent years saying that the actions of the US and its allies were going to provoke Russia to war.

War as an "Investment"

The Bizarre Business-Speak of Mass Killing

bracingviews.substack.com

And he's similarly astute at noting something else they'd never even consider here: the pro-war side most certainly do not occupy the moral high-ground their perception, emotion and narrative, tells them they do.

War as an “investment” truly symbolizes the moral bankruptcy of conventional discourse in the U.S. political mainstream. Instead of war being a calamity, a catastrophe, a realm of death and destruction, dare I say even a mortal sin of grievous evil, we’re told that instead it’s an investment that’s paying dividends, especially in that growth stock known as Ukraine.
...
Imagine the vacuity, the bankruptcy, the venality, the sinfulness of writing about war and killing as “an absolutely incredible investment.” And what is our ROI, our return on investment? A lot of dead and wounded Russians and Ukrainians, a devastated and poisoned landscape, millions of war refugees, and an increasing likelihood of a wider war that could possibly go nuclear. ROI, indeed.

His info comes from all right sources and/or pro Russia sources.

No.

 

[SDC888]

Wrong on her. I posted an article with a good listing of her history. She is absolutely known as a pro Russian propagandist. I really isn't even debatable.

Everyone pro-Russian in Ukrainian media were declared propagandists by the Ukrainian government.

 

[SDC888]

I still disagree about that being an ad hominem statement, but so be it.

As I told you before, I don't care about your stupid name calling. I expect it.

You can't make your argument, such that it can even be called one (Strawman), without them. It is by definition ad hominen, just as your arguments are by definition logically fallacious.

You didn't understand the latter before, just as you don't understand the former now, and you call me arrogant for pointing that out to you. I said from the start you can't make your arguments without constructing Strawmen and without being insulting. There's a reason for that.

You still can't. You merely seek to discredit my view, and there's a reason for that too.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

This Proxy War Can't Be Both 'Unprovoked' AND A Great Strategic Investment

Listen to a reading of this article (reading by Tim Foley):

www.caitlinjohnst.one

She types a lot without saying much and support for what she does say. Yes we get it, NATO bad, Russia just trying to protect itself, the US is blocking peace.

She's an arrogant weirdo.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

As I told you before, I don't care about your stupid name calling. I expect it.

You can't make your argument, such that it can even be called one (Strawman), without them. It is by definition ad hominen, just as your arguments are by definition logically fallacious.

You didn't understand the latter before, just as you don't understand the former now, and you call me arrogant for pointing that out to you. I said from the start you can't make your arguments without constructing Strawmen and without being insulting. There's a reason for that.

You still can't. You merely seek to discredit my view, and there's a reason for that too.

Rinse and repeat, blah, blah, blah.

 

[SDC888]

She types a lot without saying much and support for what she does say. Yes we get it, NATO bad, Russia just trying to protect itself, the US is blocking peace.

She's an arrogant weirdo.

She fully supports her argument, but no wonder you don't recognize it.

Everyone who disagrees with you gets "their" ad hominem attack.

Rinse and repeat, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah... back to ignore.

 

[warrior-cat]

The “economists” in the room who won’t reduce any budget item because that budget item won’t have a “meaningful impact.” Gotcha.

We want war and well get war, gosh darn it!

Exactly. You have to start somewhere and there are many areas we could add that would help.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Wrong on her. I posted an article with a good listing of her history. She is absolutely known as a pro Russian propagandist. I really isn't even debatable.

SCD does this over and over. His info comes from all right sources and/or pro Russia sources.

I still disagree about that being an ad hominem statement, but so be it.

You did post an article, later. Agreed, so be it.

 

[SDC888]

He just googled her name and propagandist, then posted the first link, literally.


Everyone is a propagandist when it comes to war. That's how it works. That's 101. You aren't getting the unvarnished truth anywhere, especially not through journalists whose checks are written by powerful entities, or "former" military and current government talking heads on the news . Russian propaganda has a different target audience, not you, which is why it's so much easier for you to see through it and not how you yourselves were manipulated into the false beliefs expressed here that no one could've seen this coming, that we're just dealing with a reckless mad man hell bent on reconstructing the USSR to take over Europe, that we need to fund the Ukrainians to protect freedom and democracy, our fundamental western values and hegemony of which Ukraine knows nothing, or the post World War 2 liberal world order is going to fall apart etc.


That's similarly just a narrative fed to you by propagandists used to manufacture your consent. It marries some truth to a lie, to get you to support all the needless death and destruction which you'd otherwise find abhorrent, that also has far more affect on our (esp. Europeans) lives and global economic than just the money printed to fund it.


If you make no genuine attempt at understanding why the other side is fighting, you'll never understand why there actually is a conflict, and you'll keep on keepin' on with this thinking everyone else on the side of peace is dumb for not "understanding" what you do, or must have some other character flaw or deficiency, rootin' for pootin' cause they're alt-right , while you get all emotional when someone comes along and shows you you are wrong. You are wrong, and everything that has happened since last February is consistent with that reality. You don't even possess a rudimentary understanding of this conflict if you believe it's all simply because Putin/Russia are evil so we must protect democracy, what the media says... that's banal ignorance; it's all much more horribly fascinating than that. Our actions helped and are helping nothing, only making things worse, there and most everywhere else too for that matter under our current "leadership."

 

[Caveman Catfan]

He just googled her name and propagandist, then posted the first link, literally.


Everyone is a propagandist when it comes to war. That's how it works. That's 101. You aren't getting the unvarnished truth anywhere, especially not through journalists whose checks are written by powerful entities, or "former" military and current government talking heads on the news . Russian propaganda has a different target audience, not you, which is why it's so much easier for you to see through it and not how you yourselves were manipulated into the false beliefs expressed here that no one could've seen this coming, that we're just dealing with a reckless mad man hell bent on reconstructing the USSR to take over Europe, that we need to fund the Ukrainians to protect freedom and democracy, our fundamental western values and hegemony of which Ukraine knows nothing, or the post World War 2 liberal world order is going to fall apart etc.


That's similarly just a narrative fed to you by propagandists used to manufacture your consent. It marries some truth to a lie, to get you to support all the needless death and destruction which you'd otherwise find abhorrent, that also has far more affect on our (esp. Europeans) lives and global economic than just the money printed to fund it.


If you make no genuine attempt at understanding why the other side is fighting, you'll never understand why there actually is a conflict, and you'll keep on keepin' on with this thinking everyone else on the side of peace is dumb for not "understanding" what you do, or must have some other character flaw or deficiency, rootin' for pootin' cause they're alt-right , while you get all emotional when someone comes along and shows you you are wrong. You are wrong, and everything that has happened since last February is consistent with that reality. You don't even possess a rudimentary understanding of this conflict if you believe it's all simply because Putin/Russia are evil so we must protect democracy, what the media says... that's banal ignorance; it's all much more horribly fascinating than that. Our actions helped and are helping nothing, only making things worse, there and most everywhere else too for that matter under our current "leadership."

There has been a lot of celebration for every positive Ukrainian action in this thread, as if Ukraine is closer today to a victory for that reported news.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Still havent seen any vehement calls for intervention from all the interventionists that all swore we have to protect every nation out there that's under any duress

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

She fully supports her argument, but no wonder you don't recognize it.

Everyone who disagrees with you gets "their" ad hominem attack.



Yeah... back to ignore.

She most certainly does not. Show us some of her support. Once again, you think you're smarter than everyone else. You clearly are not.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Still havent seen any vehement calls for intervention from all the interventionists that all swore we have to protect every nation out there that's under any duress

I've never said that. Not too many posts back I gave my reasons for intervening in Ukraine.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

He just googled her name and propagandist, then posted the first link, literally.


Everyone is a propagandist when it comes to war. That's how it works. That's 101. You aren't getting the unvarnished truth anywhere, especially not through journalists whose checks are written by powerful entities, or "former" military and current government talking heads on the news . Russian propaganda has a different target audience, not you, which is why it's so much easier for you to see through it and not how you yourselves were manipulated into the false beliefs expressed here that no one could've seen this coming, that we're just dealing with a reckless mad man hell bent on reconstructing the USSR to take over Europe, that we need to fund the Ukrainians to protect freedom and democracy, our fundamental western values and hegemony of which Ukraine knows nothing, or the post World War 2 liberal world order is going to fall apart etc.


That's similarly just a narrative fed to you by propagandists used to manufacture your consent. It marries some truth to a lie, to get you to support all the needless death and destruction which you'd otherwise find abhorrent, that also has far more affect on our (esp. Europeans) lives and global economic than just the money printed to fund it.


If you make no genuine attempt at understanding why the other side is fighting, you'll never understand why there actually is a conflict, and you'll keep on keepin' on with this thinking everyone else on the side of peace is dumb for not "understanding" what you do, or must have some other character flaw or deficiency, rootin' for pootin' cause they're alt-right , while you get all emotional when someone comes along and shows you you are wrong. You are wrong, and everything that has happened since last February is consistent with that reality. You don't even possess a rudimentary understanding of this conflict if you believe it's all simply because Putin/Russia are evil so we must protect democracy, what the media says... that's banal ignorance; it's all much more horribly fascinating than that. Our actions helped and are helping nothing, only making things worse, there and most everywhere else too for that matter under our current "leadership."

No I did not but keep hanging on to your Russian mouthpieces.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Yeah... back to ignore.

Who cares.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

More of Russias dominant new weapons. Nothing they build is ever worth a damn. If I were them I'd be awfully afraid of ever pushing the nuke launch button.

I doubt seriously their nuke delivery systems are any better than their new T-90 tanks.

On that note.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

More of Russias dominant new weapons. Nothing they build is ever worth a damn. If I were them I'd be awfully afraid of ever pushing the nuke launch button.

I doubt seriously their nuke delivery systems are any better than their new T-90 tanks.

On that note.

View embedded media

Do you think the information you receive and accept about the war is influenced by propaganda?

 

[SDC888]

Once again, you think you're smarter than everyone else.

You are the one who thinks that.

It is the mark of the ignorant man who presumes he cannot learn something from someone.

 

[SDC888]

No I did not but keep hanging on to your Russian mouthpieces.

Yes, you did. Google tells you what you want to "know."

It's no different than Russian mouthpieces propagandizing their people. They're wrong: you're wrong.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

I've never said that. Not too many posts back I gave my reasons for intervening in Ukraine.

Do you think we should intervene on behalf of Israel?

 

[RunninRichie]

Do you think we should intervene on behalf of Israel?

Looks like we are. Carrier group going there right now. There's also 4 American hostages in gaza right now.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Looks like we are. Carrier group going there right now. There's also 4 American hostages in gaza right now.

Hamas probably would like to ship those hostages to Iran so they get paid. If I am ever a hostage held by terrorists, I approve our government bombing the crap out of wherever they are holding me.

 

[RunninRichie]

Hamas probably would like to ship those hostages to Iran so they get paid. If I am ever a hostage held by terrorists, I approve our government bombing the crap out of wherever they are holding me.

Hamas will use them as human shields, whatever the need. Hamas is just a reskinned isis.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Looks like we are. Carrier group going there right now. There's also 4 American hostages in gaza right now.

Which is bizarre to me because Israel doesn't need our help. More bizarre considering the recent actions by the current administration, but that's probably more suitable for another thread.

That said I'm more interested in the eventual hypocrisy of the crowd that want to help Ukraine "at all costs" but will be fuming over any intervention in Israel when they were attacked much more viciously by people even more sinister.

For me, we should stay out of them both. But I'm not a hypocrite

 

[Bill Cosby]

American hostages are way too valuable these days to use as human shields. Just recently, a few were sold for $6 billion.

Hell, if one of them is a black lesbian, she alone may be worth an internationally known weapons dealer. And that’s for someone who was smuggling drugs through a foreign country, not just peacefully on vacation.

 

[SDC888]

Which is bizarre to me because Israel doesn't need our help. More bizarre considering the recent actions by the current administration, but that's probably more suitable for another thread.

That said I'm more interested in the eventual hypocrisy of the crowd that want to help Ukraine "at all costs" but will be fuming over any intervention in Israel when they were attacked much more viciously by people even more sinister.

For me, we should stay out of them both. But I'm not a hypocrite

That is resultant from the profoundly misguided and ignorant Marxist oppressor narrative. Your (rightly) perceived hypocrisy is consistent with their worldview: they see Israel colonizing Palestine, Russia colonizing Ukraine.

They "see" through blinders.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Which is bizarre to me because Israel doesn't need our help. More bizarre considering the recent actions by the current administration, but that's probably more suitable for another thread.

That said I'm more interested in the eventual hypocrisy of the crowd that want to help Ukraine "at all costs" but will be fuming over any intervention in Israel when they were attacked much more viciously by people even more sinister.

For me, we should stay out of them both. But I'm not a hypocrite

I think Israel just needs us to stay out of its way and to stand behind it, in case others who hate our long-standing ally have bad thoughts. I see a distinction between Israel and Ukraine. Israel is our Middle East partner. Steady as they come. Our interest is undeniable.

 

[SDC888]

Israel is also a thriving and prosperous democracy, surrounded by enemies, the exact opposite of Ukraine, which could have found peace and prosperity only through neutrality.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

That is resultant from the profoundly misguided and ignorant Marxist oppressor narrative. Your (rightly) perceived hypocrisy is consistent with their worldview: they see Israel colonizing Palestine, Russia colonizing Ukraine.

They "see" through blinders.

Imo you're giving them too much credit. They just take whatever position they're told. They don't need or worry about rationale

 

[vhcat70]

Still havent seen any vehement calls for intervention from all the interventionists that all swore we have to protect every nation out there that's under any duress

Intervention in what?

 

[vhcat70]

Looks like we are. Carrier group going there right now. There's also 4 American hostages in gaza right now.

Rescuing & avenging our people is not intervention. It's mercy & retribution.

 

[vhcat70]

I think Israel just needs us to stay out of its way and to stand behind it, in case others who hate our long-standing ally have bad thoughts. I see a distinction between Israel and Ukraine. Israel is our Middle East partner. Steady as they come. Our interest is undeniable.

I don't see a distinction. They are being attacked by the same Russia-Iran-China Axis which helps each other.