The Ukraine war. (Yes, we'll mind our manners)

[BigBlueFanGA]

There have been multiple sovereign nations that have been invaded since 2020. We obviously haven’t defended all of them. In fact, practically none of them.

So why Ukraine, Richie?

1. Food stability. Russia can't be allowed to control that.

2. Natural resources. Its better to have accessible allies who want to trade with us.

3. Weaken and humiliate Puntin. Its better to confine a vicious dog than to allow him to roam free.

Do any of these other countries have those reasons at hand?

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Next, entropy discussed debt. It is true that what we have spent on Ukraine is a tiny proportion compared to overall debt. But that’s not the point. When we factor in mandatory spending, the skyrocketing interest on the debt, and military spending, there’s precious little left for each fiscal year. THAT is the amount that funding this war diminishes.

You and others may argue that we can just borrow it, that what’s happening in Ukraine is worth borrowing for. I can’t grasp that at all. A single straw really can break a camel’s back.

If we had a balanced budget, and if we were paying down our debt even slightly, then I’d be much more inclined to say spend it. But those are not the conditions we face.

To make it all worse: we send billions to protect Ukraine while millions invade OUR country, and those millions will end up costing many billions more than Ukraine! How does that make sense?

Thats a fair position.

 

[WayneDougan]

You all are just being fed a pack of lies. And one of the biggest lie ever told is that Ukraine is some sort of magic country wrt food stability. Jesus Christ, it's like you guys can't think critically or something. Ukraine covers like 10% of the world's wheat exports. Russia is already #1. If the Ukraine share went offline, prices of wheat would go up, but it's not like the world would go hungry or something. Other countries and types of grain would fill the void easily.

 

[WayneDougan]

To make it all worse: we send billions to protect Ukraine while millions invade OUR country, and those millions will end up costing many billions more than Ukraine!

Not only that, Biden and his lackeys are using the invasion of our Southern Border by all kinds of undesirables as a way to extract more aid for Ukraine. Saying they won't even consider protecting the border until we are allowed to give Ukraine more money. And sure as shit, even if we make that deal the libs still won't protect the border.

 

[JumperJack]

1. Food stability. Russia can't be allowed to control that.

2. Natural resources. Its better to have accessible allies who want to trade with us.

3. Weaken and humiliate Puntin. Its better to confine a vicious dog than to allow him to roam free.

Do any of these other countries have those reasons at hand?

Richie brought up sovereignty as the reason to defend. Thus the list of others who have been invaded.

You’ve moved a step toward the honest reasons: resources. However, we can supply those things without war and without weakening ourselves.

 

[SosaUK1987]

I’m torn now. I am a Republican and can see both sides of the arguments. Glad I’m not the one making those decisions but sure as shit wish it was damn near anyone but Biden. Kackles being the lone exception.

 

[Bill Cosby]

I’m torn now. I am a Republican and can see both sides of the arguments. Glad I’m not the one making those decisions but sure as shit wish it was damn near anyone but Biden. Kackles being the lone exception.

Well I think you can rest assured Biden isn’t making any decisions.

 

[RunninRichie]

Well I think you can rest assured Biden isn’t making any decisions.

Lol let's hope.

 

[SosaUK1987]

Well I think you can rest assured Biden isn’t making any decisions.

Haha true.

 

[Nightwish84]

Always enjoyed the neverending conspiracy that a POTUS isn't actually making decisions at all, that's it's some shadowy puppet instead. Lemme guess, this time it's dark and scary Obama? With Trump, it was really Putin. With W, it was actually Cheney. They can debate, hold pressers, meet with world leaders, win national elections and the White House...but they can't possibly make decisions. Hope folks realize when you dislike a politician, lowering the bar to the point that you make it seem like it's impressive that that person is able to blink doesn't really help your cause. Apparently ole Biden has dementia and isn't capable of making a decision...yet he defeated Donald Trump, who according to many on this site, is adored by a majority of the world and feared yet respected by Putin. Uh, yeah.

(and notice I'm not fanboying for Biden. Both sides do this and it's never made sense. If he's so awful and practically a corpse, why couldn't the other guy get it done?)

 

[SosaUK1987]

Always enjoyed the neverending conspiracy that a POTUS isn't actually making decisions at all, that's it's some shadowy puppet instead. Lemme guess, this time it's dark and scary Obama? With Trump, it was really Putin. With W, it was actually Cheney. They can debate, hold pressers, meet with world leaders, win national elections and the White House...but they can't possibly make decisions. Hope folks realize when you dislike a politician, lowering the bar to the point that you make it seem like it's impressive that that person is able to blink doesn't really help your cause. Apparently ole Biden has dementia and isn't capable of making a decision...yet he defeated Donald Trump, who according to many on this site, is adored by a majority of the world and feared yet respected by Putin. Uh, yeah.

(and notice I'm not fanboying for Biden. Both sides do this and it's never made sense. If he's so awful and practically a corpse, why couldn't the other guy get it done?)

All you have do is watch Biden to know he can’t be running anything. He can’t even walk or complete a sentence.

And no way in hell 80 however million voted for Slow Joe so that’s how he beat Trump. Unless of course you believe Biden managed to get the most votes EVER?

 

[RunninRichie]

All you have do is watch Biden to know he can’t be running anything. He can’t even walk or complete a sentence.

And no way in hell 80 however million voted for Slow Joe so that’s how he beat Trump. Unless of course you believe Biden managed to get the most votes EVER?

Never under estimate the stupidity of the general American populace. These people actually thought Trump could stop a respiratory virus and when he couldn't he should be voted out. Lol.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Richie brought up sovereignty as the reason to defend. Thus the list of others who have been invaded.

You’ve moved a step toward the honest reasons: resources. However, we can supply those things without war and without weakening ourselves.

On top of what I posted, Ukraine does have a right to its sovereignty. Once all those things are put together, Ukraine deserves help.

Can you imagine the leverage Putin would have on the world if he controlled "the bread basket".

 

[entropy13]

I’m torn now. I am a Republican and can see both sides of the arguments. Glad I’m not the one making those decisions but sure as shit wish it was damn near anyone but Biden. Kackles being the lone exception.

Don't underestimate Kackles. She could probably unilaterally end the war by giving Putin such a good time that he'd withdraw from Ukraine after withdrawing from her. You know what folks? I think we have found the pathway to peace!

 

[entropy13]

entropy I’ll start with a couple of things-

-my take is that China is far and away more dangerous than Russia. I’ve said from the start that instead of prolonging the Ukraine war and sanctioning Russia, we should have worked to end this war and try to engage Russia. Not because we like Russia, and not because we don’t care about Ukraine. But because the reality is that we cannot dislodge Russia from Ukraine. That’s the realpolitik.

Russia is a plutocracy, a dictatorship. But they’re not completely detached from the Western world. China is a hive mind. Chinese communism is so repressive, so thoroughly evil, that they represent the biggest threat the world faces. Hopefully their demographics collapse their system but I think they will move before that happens.

With all that said, balance of power says we need Russia more than Ukraine needs the Donbas.

I agree that China overall poses a bigger threat and that the CCP is vile. However, China in general is more restrained and cautious on the world stage. That has changed somewhat recently, but still true. China tries to push the limits by bullying and/or bribing weaker neighbors. Russia in the meantime engages in hybrid warfare with the entire Western world and launched a full-blown land war in Europe.

China has some real structural issues. Pretty much the worst demographics you could imagine, gender imbalance, years of malinvestment in unproductive projects (e.g., overbuilt real estate), etc. In the short to medium term that might actually make them *more* likely to do something drastic towards Taiwan if their economy goes tits up and the CCP needs a distraction. China's an odd place; in my old job I'd go there 1-3 times each year. This recent piece from Foreign Affairs is a good read (it's a comment and reply) that I think you'll like.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/responses/who-killed-chinese-economy

I think you misread how adversarial Russia became towards the West in general, and the U.S. in particular, even prior to 2014. Since then it's just gotten worse. And let's put to bed the idea that NATO and the West broke promises they made with Russia (don't recall you yourself having tried to make that point, but others have) and that we're to blame. That's a fiction that Putin has embraced and nourished and is now an almost immutable part of Russian state policy. Putin delivered an ultimatum to Ukraine in July 2021, and then another one to NATO and the U.S. in December 2021. The former made it clear that he saw no room for an independent Ukraine. In the latter, Putin demanded that Russia essentially have veto power over sovereign countries’ ability to seek membership in NATO and over how the alliance operated militarily and politically. Both things were ridiculous non-starters and showed that he wasn't interested in negotiating. So, in essence, there was no real chance to "engage" with Russia. Aside from being a gas station (a particularly well-armed and malign one) for Europe, Russia has grown increasingly detached from the West since the early 2000s.

In sum, in the near to medium term, there is no realisitc way to build a relationship with Russia to have them on "our side" vis-a-vis China.

 

[entropy13]

Next, entropy discussed debt. It is true that what we have spent on Ukraine is a tiny proportion compared to overall debt. But that’s not the point. When we factor in mandatory spending, the skyrocketing interest on the debt, and military spending, there’s precious little left for each fiscal year. THAT is the amount that funding this war diminishes.

You and others may argue that we can just borrow it, that what’s happening in Ukraine is worth borrowing for. I can’t grasp that at all. A single straw really can break a camel’s back.

Years of fiscal malfeasance and so-called "mandatory" spending are really the biggest part of the problem. Even eliminating all discretionary spending (which includes defense) wouldn't be enough to balance the budget this year. Your statement "THAT is the amount that funding this war diminishes" doesn't flow logically. What other funding has Ukraine aid "diminished?" If the government decides to spend $2 billion on an aid package, it doesn't suck away $2 billion from other things. That's not how the federal budget works. Maybe your statement was just hastily phrased?

If we had a balanced budget, and if we were paying down our debt even slightly, then I’d be much more inclined to say spend it. But those are not the conditions we face.

To make it all worse: we send billions to protect Ukraine while millions invade OUR country, and those millions will end up costing many billions more than Ukraine! How does that make sense?

Again, Ukraine aid has literally jacksquat to do with the ridiculous situation on our southern border and illegal immigration. Illegal immigration exists largely because of the byzantine and limited system designed by an incompetent government that limits ways to come here legally, even for immigrants who'd be a boon for the economy, and/or who fill jobs that many Americans don't want to do (and the latter is separate issue in and of itself). Both parties are more interested in grandstanding about the issue than doing anything meaningful to address the problem. We need better security and enforcement, but at the same time need to recognize that the system itself caused the present situation. Realistic, rational reform is needed and achievable. Immigration is good overall because it helps stabilize the population, making the demographic outlook better than it would be, which is important for the solvency of programs like SS and Medicare, which already look precarious.

Anyway, I feel like we're veering way off from the thread topic (and it's all your fault!).

 

[RunninRichie]

Years of fiscal malfeasance and so-called "mandatory" spending are really the biggest part of the problem. Even eliminating all discretionary spending (which includes defense) wouldn't be enough to balance the budget this year. Your statement "THAT is the amount that funding this war diminishes" doesn't flow logically. What other funding has Ukraine aid "diminished?" If the government decides to spend $2 billion on an aid package, it doesn't suck away $2 billion from other things. That's not how the federal budget works. Maybe your statement was just hastily phrased?


Again, Ukraine aid has literally jacksquat to do with the ridiculous situation on our southern border and illegal immigration. Illegal immigration exists largely because of the byzantine and limited system designed by an incompetent government that limits ways to come here legally, even for immigrants who'd be a boon for the economy, and/or who fill jobs that many Americans don't want to do (and the latter is separate issue in and of itself). Both parties are more interested in grandstanding about the issue than doing anything meaningful to address the problem. We need better security and enforcement, but at the same time need to recognize that the system itself caused the present situation. Realistic, rational reform is needed and achievable. Immigration is good overall because it helps stabilize the population, making the demographic outlook better than it would be, which is important for the solvency of programs like SS and Medicare, which already look precarious.

Anyway, I feel like we're veering way off from the thread topic (and it's all your fault!).

Not to mention the process of an illegal becoming legal is a years long, thousands of dollars long process.

 

[entropy13]

One more thing regarding the debt issue. The debate is difficult because of left/right dogma.

According to the left, all government spending is a magical “investment” into the economy. Those wise people in government know how to spend our money better than we do, so whatever they spend it on will be good, and in the end raise tax receipts because of the economic boon. Take it to its logical conclusion and near 100% government spending is the ideal economy.

According to the right, all tax cuts magically increase government revenue. Every dollar that is not taken out of the economy via taxes multiplies into income and wealth that creates more government revenue than if it was never taken away. Take it to its logical conclusion and 0.0000001% taxes maximize government revenue.

In the end one side cuts taxes while they both increase spending, and nobody can figure out why the debt keeps going up.

Again, assistance to Ukraine has been what, $80 billion over two fiscal years, and a good portion of that is slapping a price tag on military equipment that was slated to be surplused anyway. Total federal outlays were over $6 trillion (😲?!?!?) each year for 2022 and 2023.

The solution to our national debt isn't that hard, but it requires political will and bipartisan agreement. We could gradually attrit the debt down to sustainable levels. Taxes don’t need to be raised. Take current tax revenues and use continuous growth at revenue growth rates. Plot against current spending at 0% growth. Deficits become surplus in about 8 years. Tax revenue as a percentage of gdp is remarkably steady no matter the tax rate. Locking spending is all one needs to do. The government overspends by a lot, so cutting /freezing spending gets us there quicker.

 

[Bill Cosby]

It’s prioritization.

Washington has a tendency to get fixated on issues and move on.

As long as you guys, the establishment politicians, the corporate news media, the MIC, etc. are all fixated on Ukraine, we won’t be able to move on to issues that actually impact the United States.

And it’s comical that the “support Ukraine at all cost” side, that is lockstep with the political and media “elite” say it’s the people who are opposed to the war that are falling for the propaganda.

If things were going well in the United States and Washington could focus on more than one thing ant once, funneling a hundred billion through Ukraine back to the MIC at the expense of tens of thousands of Russian and Ukrainian men may be less appalling.

 

[SDC888]

It’s prioritization.

💯

It's also a stupid counter "argument" when you are so clearly failing at all the domestic issues.

And it’s comical that the “support Ukraine at all cost” side, that is lockstep with the political and media “elite” say it’s the people who are opposed to the war that are falling for the propaganda.

 

[JumperJack]

Another thing that must be said is this: when you see the exact same media organs who pushed lie after lie about Trump and Russia, about Hunter’s laptop, about Covid, about vaccines….when these same people are telling you that supporting Ukraine is the right thing to do, how can a normal person not assume it’s another sort of lie?

 

[SosaUK1987]

Another thing that must be said is this: when you see the exact same media organs who pushed lie after lie about Trump and Russia, about Hunter’s laptop, about Covid, about vaccines….when these same people are telling you that supporting Ukraine is the right thing to do, how can a normal person not assume it’s another sort of lie?

The Binder(KJP) just said “experts are predicting if we don’t fund Ukraine it would be a win for Putin, etc”. Lol.

We’re those the same experts that said this would be over in days?

 

[SosaUK1987]

and I’m sorry but it’s beyond infuriating at this point to constantly hear Zelensky beg for free shit. Absolutely infuriating.

 

[Spica Orbit]

 

[bigblueinsanity]

1. Food stability. Russia can't be allowed to control that.

2. Natural resources. Its better to have accessible allies who want to trade with us.

3. Weaken and humiliate Puntin. Its better to confine a vicious dog than to allow him to roam free.

Do any of these other countries have those reasons at hand?

Let's assume for arguments sake that's all true. Was it not also true prior to 2016? Or did he turn heel all at once? There is no way it happened all at once.

So we're back to the inescapable issue that people continue to avoid. If Putin is an inherently dangerous madman then Obama and Hillary either 1) are grossly negligent in allowing Russia to return to power or 2) complicit.

There are no other options. Now as with all the other times I posted this, continue to put your head in the sand and continue posting about Ukraine soldiers saving cats from trees

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Let's assume for arguments sake that's all true. Was it not also true prior to 2016? Or did he turn heel all at once? There is no way it happened all at once.

So we're back to the inescapable issue that people continue to avoid. If Putin is an inherently dangerous madman then Obama and Hillary either 1) are grossly negligent in allowing Russia to return to power or 2) complicit.

There are no other options. Now as with all the other times I posted this, continue to put your head in the sand and continue posting about Ukraine soldiers saving cats from trees

Yes, they are complicit.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Let's assume for arguments sake that's all true. Was it not also true prior to 2016? Or did he turn heel all at once? There is no way it happened all at once.

So we're back to the inescapable issue that people continue to avoid. If Putin is an inherently dangerous madman then Obama and Hillary either 1) are grossly negligent in allowing Russia to return to power or 2) complicit.

There are no other options. Now as with all the other times I posted this, continue to put your head in the sand and continue posting about Ukraine soldiers saving cats from trees

I dont post about Ukraine soldiers saving cats from trees and my head isn't in the sand. As for there being no other options, of course there are. We don't know what's going on in Putins head. There could be issues with him that forced the issue.

At any rate, you need to explain your last paragraph in relation to the other 2. Since I got sick my head isn't as clear and I really donneed things in crayons at times.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

I dont post about Ukraine soldiers saving cats from trees and my head isn't in the sand. As for there being no other options, of course there are. We don't know what's going on in Putins head. There could be issues with him that forced the issue.

At any rate, you need to explain your last paragraph in relation to the other 2. Since I got sick my head isn't as clear and I really donneed things in crayons at times.

That wasn't directed at you personally. Just those who continue to play both sides of the fence in the question I presented

 

[SosaUK1987]

I love how I CANT ask a legitimate question and it gets called “political”. But this thread, which is a billion percent political, let’s it slide.

 

[SosaUK1987]

It’s absolute horseshit that the mods can just control all conversation. **** this board and the moderators. I’ll keep coming back. Can’t silence the majority.

SosaUK1987 pt 2 or 3 or 4 don’t matter to me. I ain’t leaving.

 

[SosaUK1987]

especially when the same mod has banned me multiple times.

 

[SosaUK1987]

I keep receipts.

 

[JumperJack]

 

[bcw1029]

View embedded media

Vivek needs to freshen up on foreign policy and geopolitics. Yeah, let’s pretend Zel is as bad as Putin 🤡. So much stupid in this post.

 

[SDC888]

 

[JumperJack]

We’re screwed.

 

[SDC888]

 

[Caveman Catfan]

View embedded media

Good for Vivek to engage the all powerful know-it-all leftie tykes.

 

[bcw1029]

To those on here bitching about the debt, guess what? Probably no one here disagrees. Someone mentioned a Balanced Budget Amendment and term limits, good starting points. No one disagrees about the prioritization of reducing the debt, only that Ukraine consists of a minuscule amount in the grand scheme of things and also a lot of this aid is in the form of loans as I’ve mentioned in earlier posts. You’re not serious about reducing the debt unless you have a discussion about Entitlements.


“Russia is evacuating officers' families from the Ukrainian city of Tokmak as Kyiv's forces advance on the southern Zaporizhzhia front, sources said on Wednesday”.

Uh-oh.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

View embedded media

His take is so superficial and uninformed that its laughable.