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The problem with high assist numbers

Jan 27, 2023
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If one dude is constantly putting up big assists numbers, especially compared to the rest of the team, that means the ball is in that one guy’s hands way too much. It also means that the ball is in his hands late in the shot clock and he just has to pick someone to throw the damned thing to (sometimes that person scores).

I understand that every now and then a player has a great night passing the ball. I also understand that there are great NBA level point guards that have exceptional speed/handle/court awareness/decision making abilities, but mostly one guy should not be putting up large assist numbers every time he plays. Teams as a whole should be moving the ball more than that.
 
Same thing is true of high individual scoring totals. What does it really say when Reeves scores 27 points? HE TOOK TOO DAMN MANY SHOTS. Terrible for team morale and for making opponents have to give all players the same defensive respect. Who knows? If Reeves wasn't taking those shots maybe someone else would -- and possibly make some.

Also high rebound totals are completely misleading. I mean, sure Oscar gets 15-20 rebounds - that only means one guy is under the basket too damn often. Imagine if Oscar were out on the perimeter contesting shots. But noooo. He wants the personal glory of rebounding.

It's a sign of Cal's poor coaching that Kentucky consistently has guys scoring over 20 and other guys getting double digit rebounds.
 
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Idk if that's true or if there's any correlation.

I think a PG can be pretty good at finding open players and moving the ball, while also being turnover prone and too unreliable with creating his own offense (shooting and driving).

That pretty much sums up Wheeler. But his assist numbers are solid and aren't some false indicator.
 
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If one dude is constantly putting up big assists numbers, especially compared to the rest of the team, that means the ball is in that one guy’s hands way too much. It also means that the ball is in his hands late in the shot clock and he just has to pick someone to throw the damned thing to (sometimes that person scores).

I understand that every now and then a player has a great night passing the ball. I also understand that there are great NBA level point guards that have exceptional speed/handle/court awareness/decision making abilities, but mostly one guy should not be putting up large assist numbers every time he plays. Teams as a whole should be moving the ball more than that.
This is the dumbest post of the day
 
If one dude is constantly putting up big assists numbers, especially compared to the rest of the team, that means the ball is in that one guy’s hands way too much. It also means that the ball is in his hands late in the shot clock and he just has to pick someone to throw the damned thing to (sometimes that person scores).

I understand that every now and then a player has a great night passing the ball. I also understand that there are great NBA level point guards that have exceptional speed/handle/court awareness/decision making abilities, but mostly one guy should not be putting up large assist numbers every time he plays. Teams as a whole should be moving the ball more than that.
Another terrible retread poster lol. You can keep changing usernames every month, but you’re always going to suck.
 
If one dude is constantly putting up big assists numbers, especially compared to the rest of the team, that means the ball is in that one guy’s hands way too much. It also means that the ball is in his hands late in the shot clock and he just has to pick someone to throw the damned thing to (sometimes that person scores).

I understand that every now and then a player has a great night passing the ball. I also understand that there are great NBA level point guards that have exceptional speed/handle/court awareness/decision making abilities, but mostly one guy should not be putting up large assist numbers every time he plays. Teams as a whole should be moving the ball more than that.

So Tyler Ulis and John Wall had the ball too much? What a dumb blanket statement.
 
If one dude is constantly putting up big assists numbers, especially compared to the rest of the team, that means the ball is in that one guy’s hands way too much. It also means that the ball is in his hands late in the shot clock and he just has to pick someone to throw the damned thing to (sometimes that person scores).

I understand that every now and then a player has a great night passing the ball. I also understand that there are great NBA level point guards that have exceptional speed/handle/court awareness/decision making abilities, but mostly one guy should not be putting up large assist numbers every time he plays. Teams as a whole should be moving the ball more than that.
Because after all the point guard should never set up the offense and distribute the ball. Some of you guys are so pathological about the Wheeler that you have to come up with a twisted convoluted horse apples rather than admit the kid played a good game.
 
I stand by my statement. College basketball has always been more about team offense. If one guy has the ball in his hands most of a possession then of course he’s going to have more assists. A PG should lead a team in assists, but not with such disparity. I don’t care how well an offense is designed, the ball isn’t going to end up in the point guards hands for the final pass before a shot is taken. There is something wrong when a point guard has 7 or 8 or 11 or 12 assists and the next guy has 2 or 3 and some guys don’t even have one.

Also, Oscar getting 20 rebounds might not be as great as it sounds. You shouldn’t be outrebounding nine other guys that badly all of the time. Kansas sent four guys to rebound every possession, we sent one or two. Amazing that Oscar can do what he does; he sees angles impossibly well and he can’t be moved, but damn, just by law of averages, a truly good rebounding team wouldn’t look so lopsided.

As far as these other posters you guys mention…I have no idea who you are talking about. I haven’t been on here for a couple of years. I’m going through some disability issues right now. I don’t really dig personal insults anyway; part of why I lost interest in being on here. Lots of 10 year olds here with 17 year old vocabularies and 30-60 years of bitterness over bad bosses, ugly spouses, and dumb kids.
 
I stand by my statement. College basketball has always been more about team offense. If one guy has the ball in his hands most of a possession then of course he’s going to have more assists. A PG should lead a team in assists, but not with such disparity. I don’t care how well an offense is designed, the ball isn’t going to end up in the point guards hands for the final pass before a shot is taken. There is something wrong when a point guard has 7 or 8 or 11 or 12 assists and the next guy has 2 or 3 and some guys don’t even have one.

Also, Oscar getting 20 rebounds might not be as great as it sounds. You shouldn’t be outrebounding nine other guys that badly all of the time. Kansas sent four guys to rebound every possession, we sent one or two. Amazing that Oscar can do what he does; he sees angles impossibly well and he can’t be moved, but damn, just by law of averages, a truly good rebounding team wouldn’t look so lopsided.

As far as these other posters you guys mention…I have no idea who you are talking about. I haven’t been on here for a couple of years. I’m going through some disability issues right now. I don’t really dig personal insults anyway; part of why I lost interest in being on here. Lots of 10 year olds here with 17 year old vocabularies and 30-60 years of bitterness over bad bosses, ugly spouses, and dumb kids.
Point guards usually have the most assists because they play the point (top of the key) and see/utilize both sides of the floor and all four teammates are closer to the basket, as they initiate the offense. Shooting Guards and Shooting Forwards (Small) are called that for a reason ...
 
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I stand by my statement. College basketball has always been more about team offense. If one guy has the ball in his hands most of a possession then of course he’s going to have more assists. A PG should lead a team in assists, but not with such disparity. I don’t care how well an offense is designed, the ball isn’t going to end up in the point guards hands for the final pass before a shot is taken. There is something wrong when a point guard has 7 or 8 or 11 or 12 assists and the next guy has 2 or 3 and some guys don’t even have one.

Also, Oscar getting 20 rebounds might not be as great as it sounds. You shouldn’t be outrebounding nine other guys that badly all of the time. Kansas sent four guys to rebound every possession, we sent one or two. Amazing that Oscar can do what he does; he sees angles impossibly well and he can’t be moved, but damn, just by law of averages, a truly good rebounding team wouldn’t look so lopsided.

As far as these other posters you guys mention…I have no idea who you are talking about. I haven’t been on here for a couple of years. I’m going through some disability issues right now. I don’t really dig personal insults anyway; part of why I lost interest in being on here. Lots of 10 year olds here with 17 year old vocabularies and 30-60 years of bitterness over bad bosses, ugly spouses, and dumb kids.
Just go to bed, you’re drunk
 
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I stand by my statement. College basketball has always been more about team offense. If one guy has the ball in his hands most of a possession then of course he’s going to have more assists. A PG should lead a team in assists, but not with such disparity. I don’t care how well an offense is designed, the ball isn’t going to end up in the point guards hands for the final pass before a shot is taken. There is something wrong when a point guard has 7 or 8 or 11 or 12 assists and the next guy has 2 or 3 and some guys don’t even have one.

Also, Oscar getting 20 rebounds might not be as great as it sounds. You shouldn’t be outrebounding nine other guys that badly all of the time. Kansas sent four guys to rebound every possession, we sent one or two. Amazing that Oscar can do what he does; he sees angles impossibly well and he can’t be moved, but damn, just by law of averages, a truly good rebounding team wouldn’t look so lopsided.

As far as these other posters you guys mention…I have no idea who you are talking about. I haven’t been on here for a couple of years. I’m going through some disability issues right now. I don’t really dig personal insults anyway; part of why I lost interest in being on here. Lots of 10 year olds here with 17 year old vocabularies and 30-60 years of bitterness over bad bosses, ugly spouses, and dumb kids.
It was an ignorant take. Maybe you should stay away. There is not a long time poster here that has not said stupid crap and Got grief for it.
 
Everybody is gonna kill the OP or whatever, but he’s not entirely wrong. Anthony Epps, who many of us consider the model for championship point guard play, never broke 4.8 assist per game. Wayne Turner never broke 4.4 per game.

The gaudy numbers of Wheeler, then Ulis, then Wall absolutely were a result of the entire offense being predicated on their playmaking. The only championship winning PG for Cal averaged 4.8 a game.

Balanced rosters with multiple playmakers is the formula to a championship team.
 
If one dude is constantly putting up big assists numbers, especially compared to the rest of the team, that means the ball is in that one guy’s hands way too much
eOrfOp9.gif
 
SeasonPlayerMinutesFG%3PT%FT%AssistsA / MinTOTO / MINA/TOPPGATT / MIN
09-10Wall128846.12%32.46%
75.43%​
2410.1871490.1161.6216.650.340
10-11Knight136342.30%37.66%
79.53%​
1590.1171200.0881.3317.290.376
11-12Teague130341.19%32.50%
71.43%​
1910.1471090.0841.7510.030.270
12-13Harrow78741.35%29.58%
70.77%​
820.104480.0611.719.900.338
12-13Goodwin104843.98%26.56%
63.68%​
880.0841010.0960.8714.120.341
13-14Harrison126736.67%35.11%
76.44%​
1590.1261090.0861.4610.850.260
14-15Harrison99437.83%38.30%
79.25%​
1390.140640.0642.179.330.269
14-15Ulis88240.61%42.86%
80.77%​
1350.153380.0433.555.650.187
15-16Ulis128743.44%34.38%
85.64%​
2460.191690.0543.5717.310.343
16-17Fox106447.77%24.64%
73.93%​
1650.155870.0821.9016.690.421
17-18Gilg-Alex124848.54%40.35%
81.71%​
1890.151990.0791.9114.380.302
17-18Green86945.14%37.61%
80.77%​
910.105550.0631.659.260.296
18-19Green16044.90%42.31%
89.47%​
210.131210.1311.008.000.306
18-19Hagans105446.73%27.45%
76.09%​
1600.152940.0891.707.680.203
19-20Hagans99640.38%25.81%
80.99%​
1910.1921030.1031.8511.500.266
19-20Maxey106842.74%29.20%
83.33%​
980.092670.0631.4613.970.329
20-21Askew72234.51%27.78%
80.65%​
730.101500.0691.466.520.197
20-21Mintz76939.67%38.10%
65.57%​
770.100470.0611.6411.520.315
21-22Mintz76838.22%34.38%
70.15%​
550.072310.0401.778.480.293
21-22Wheeler93744.12%30.77%
77.97%​
2070.221910.0972.2710.070.290
21-22Washington90645.10%34.95%
75.00%​
1200.133510.0562.3512.520.372
22-23Wheeler57340.40%37.50%
53.33%​
1140.199390.0682.927.650.264
22-23Wallace65146.60%40.43%
62.86%​
760.117380.0582.0011.330.293
Anthony Epps. a personal favorite, had a career assist/turnover ratio of 2.82.
He averaged .194 assists per minute of playing time.
He averaged .069 turnovers per minute of playing time.
His 1996-1997 season stats were incredibly efficient !!
http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/Statistics/Players/Epps_Anthony.html
 
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I wish I could see numbers on FG% after pass and numbers on passes that lead to turnovers.

Those are both worded a little strangely. If you make 10 passes that lead to shots, do 3 of those shots fall or do 6 of them? How many passes a game do you make that lead to the next player turning the ball over?
 
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I gotta say, I half expected this post to be fully embraced by many on the board, so I'm relieved to see so many call out this nonsense.

It's not necessary to demonize Wheeler for doing what he does best and doing it well in a game in order to make the case that it was good that Cal removed him from the starting lineup. Believe it or not, he doesn't have to be a terribly selfish and plainly horrible player to make the case. He can actually have good games, even. He played a pretty good game at Ole Miss. We don't likely win that game without his 9 assists. He didn't play a perfect game. He took several ill-advised shots by getting in too deep without having anywhere to go with the ball. He's done that before and he should be better than that.

Having said that, he made more positive plays than negative. He didn't turn the ball over, even against full court pressure late. It's good he came ready to play and hasn't been hanging his head or being a problem on the team. We want Wheeler to play well, right? It's good when he has 9 assists. It means the team is sharing the ball and guys are making shots.
 
I wasn’t specifically trying to condemn Wheeler. I think it was more of a condemnation of the team and the coach than of Wheeler. One player leading the world in a stat can be a more subtle indicator of a poorly balanced team.

I give a little more forgiveness for Oscar’s rebounding numbers because there are two or three or four rebounds a game that the other players just let Oscar have. That said, the reason that Oscar can’t take many jump shots is because we suck at team rebounding. I don’t really know if Oscar could ever develop a decent jump shot because he’s not going to get enough reps to learn.

And then there’s Reeves: great scorer, can’t/won’t pass; can’t/won’t rebound. Can’t really blame him since he’s the only guy who can hit clutch jump shots consistently (again, indicator of a badly balanced team).
 
If one dude is constantly putting up big assists numbers, especially compared to the rest of the team, that means the ball is in that one guy’s hands way too much. It also means that the ball is in his hands late in the shot clock and he just has to pick someone to throw the damned thing to (sometimes that person scores).

I understand that every now and then a player has a great night passing the ball. I also understand that there are great NBA level point guards that have exceptional speed/handle/court awareness/decision making abilities, but mostly one guy should not be putting up large assist numbers every time he plays. Teams as a whole should be moving the ball more than that.
I'll be sure to let Jerry Sloan know he was ****ing up letting John Stockton get all them assists
 
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Goodness, Wheeler finally has a good game and someone finds a way to spin it. 🤷‍♂️
 
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If one dude is constantly putting up big assists numbers, especially compared to the rest of the team, that means the ball is in that one guy’s hands way too much. It also means that the ball is in his hands late in the shot clock and he just has to pick someone to throw the damned thing to (sometimes that person scores).

I understand that every now and then a player has a great night passing the ball. I also understand that there are great NBA level point guards that have exceptional speed/handle/court awareness/decision making abilities, but mostly one guy should not be putting up large assist numbers every time he plays. Teams as a whole should be moving the ball mo
Wheeler’s weakness is his constant dribbling looking for an opening. I’m guessing there’s very few times he’s passed to someone who then passed to someone else for an assist.

It’s just a different approach with him. The issue is that it often gets late in the shot clock and the last guy with the ball has to shoot it. Sometimes they’re open and sometimes not.

He played great last nite for the most part. Got a number of assists from pushing the ball and finding early offense. That’s his strength.
Half court pg play, not so much.
 
I stand by my statement. College basketball has always been more about team offense. If one guy has the ball in his hands most of a possession then of course he’s going to have more assists. A PG should lead a team in assists, but not with such disparity. I don’t care how well an offense is designed, the ball isn’t going to end up in the point guards hands for the final pass before a shot is taken. There is something wrong when a point guard has 7 or 8 or 11 or 12 assists and the next guy has 2 or 3 and some guys don’t even have one.

Also, Oscar getting 20 rebounds might not be as great as it sounds. You shouldn’t be outrebounding nine other guys that badly all of the time. Kansas sent four guys to rebound every possession, we sent one or two. Amazing that Oscar can do what he does; he sees angles impossibly well and he can’t be moved, but damn, just by law of averages, a truly good rebounding team wouldn’t look so lopsided.

As far as these other posters you guys mention…I have no idea who you are talking about. I haven’t been on here for a couple of years. I’m going through some disability issues right now. I don’t really dig personal insults anyway; part of why I lost interest in being on here. Lots of 10 year olds here with 17 year old vocabularies and 30-60 years of bitterness over bad bosses, ugly spouses, and dumb kids.
Don't double down. Just mark your original post down as a huge loss and move on.
 
Wheeler had 9 assists and 1 turnover against Vandy and his teammates shot over 50% I think. That is good.
 
I’ve never thought individual assist numbers all that important. But team assists, actually the % of baskets with an assist, very important. Yeah some passes are more important than others, some lead to baskets, some don’t.
 
Wheeler had 9 assists and 1 turnover against Vandy and his teammates shot over 50% I think. That is good.
He played pretty decent. To me the only 1 TO is bigger than 9 assists.

People talk about assist to TO ratio, but they should instead focus on Steal to TO ratio.
 
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If one dude is constantly putting up big assists numbers, especially compared to the rest of the team, that means the ball is in that one guy’s hands way too much. It also means that the ball is in his hands late in the shot clock and he just has to pick someone to throw the damned thing to (sometimes that person scores).

I understand that every now and then a player has a great night passing the ball. I also understand that there are great NBA level point guards that have exceptional speed/handle/court awareness/decision making abilities, but mostly one guy should not be putting up large assist numbers every time he plays. Teams as a whole should be moving the ball more than that.
Which is why this team struggles in late game situations, and this team sucks at ball movement most of the time and why this team has guys just standing around watching the ball.
 
Assist numbers in general are a little bit overblown nowdays compared to days gone by. Back then an assist was mainly a pass that led to a layup. Rarely if ever was an assist given for a pass that led to a jump shot but thats partly because there wasnt as much catch and shoot then. With the 3 point line and the need for ball penetration and kick outs, that has become a real part of the game and probably worth of assist credit when the passer truly created the space and pass for the goal. But that said there's still alot of questionable assists handed out on just basic rotated passes that some guy makes a tough shot out of.
 
Assist numbers in general are a little bit overblown nowdays compared to days gone by. Back then an assist was mainly a pass that led to a layup. Rarely if ever was an assist given for a pass that led to a jump shot but thats partly because there wasnt as much catch and shoot then. With the 3 point line and the need for ball penetration and kick outs, that has become a real part of the game and probably worth of assist credit when the passer truly created the space and pass for the goal. But that said there's still alot of questionable assists handed out on just basic rotated passes that some guy makes a tough shot out of.
You make a good point, but they are credited to players equally, so the assist total is a legit, comparative metric that indicates a particular skill and contribution to team effort and performance.
 
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