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Teachers are severely underpaid in the U.S.. or are they?

USMC Cat

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This is me copying and pasting, practically word for word. Stats look solid, but thought I would share just to drum up discussion...

While teachers are often honorable people whom we don't seek to demean, statistics show they're paid quite adequately relative to comparable professionals, once accounting for time-worked, education level, and benefits.

Per the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, the median annual wages (as of 2016) were as follows:

• $55,490 = Kindergarten & Elementary School Teachers [a]

• $56,720 = Middle School Teachers

$58,030 = High School Teachers [c]

That averages to an annual salary of $56,747. For context, in May 2016, the median annual wage for ALL workers was only $37,040. [c]
While that's already 53% higher, its not really a fair representation, since we also need to look at time-worked, educational requirements, and benefits.

Per a BLS study titled "Teachers' Work Patterns," full time teachers worked 24 fewer minutes per weekday and 42 fewer minutes per Saturday than other full-time professionals. On Sundays, teachers and other professionals worked, on average, about the same amount of time. [d] Note that in this study, “other professionals” refers to health care professionals, business and financial operations professionals, architects and engineers, community and social services professionals, managers, and others. [d] (Essentially, professions which have similarly difficult educational requirements.) Therefore, this estimate suggests teachers are working 2.5 hours LESS in any given work-week than comparable professionals.

If concerned we may be inadvertently under-representing hours worked by teachers, we can address that via the Census Bureau’s Current Population Survey, where teachers self-report. In other words, they tell us what they believe they're doing, and we simply take that at face value. Thus, it's far less possible for us to accidentally underrepresent their hours worked. Per the CPS, "Teachers themselves report a mean work week of 43.7 hours, versus 44.8 hours for non-teachers with a college degree." [e] THIS estimate would put them at roughly 1 hour of work LESS than comparable workers.

Looking at full time teachers, the BLS also broke it down by age group:

• Teachers aged 20-29: 37 hours per week [f]
• Teachers aged 30-39: 36 hours per week [f]
• Teachers aged 40-49: 40 hours per week [f]
• Teachers aged 50-59: 42 hours per week [f]

Taken together, just for a rough estimate, these average out to about 38.75 hours.

Thus, in reviewing all of the above estimates, we can safely approximate that - when not presently on vacation - teachers work roughly 1 - 2.5 FEWER hours a week than comparable workers.

Now what about the number of weeks worked in a year? Many people will anecdotally claim that teachers only work 9 months out of the year, and the BBC even reports that teachers have 13 weeks off, but districts in the U.S. differ. Per the BLS, "Many work the traditional 10-month school year and have a 2-month break during the summer. They also have a short midwinter break." [g] That would equals a minimum of nine weeks off a year, leaving a maximum of 43 work weeks to divide their annual salaries into. THIS seems to be the most "conservative" estimate regarding vacation weeks, so to give teachers the benefit of the doubt, we'll use this one in our estimates. Using the average annual salary we stated above of $56,747, that would be about $1319.70 earned in a work-week. If we then take the highest estimate of hours worked, self reported by teachers to be 43.7 hours a week, that would come out to an hourly wage of $30.20 before benefits. Using the lower end of the spectrum (38.75 hours, which we explained above), their hourly wage would instead be $34.06. Therefore, we can safely approximate that teachers are paid an average rate of $30.20 - $34.06 per hour, which most people wouldn't consider a "bad" wage. (Especially compared to the median wage for ALL workers, divided by 52 weeks and a 40 hour workweek, which comes to $17.98 per hour.)

The next thing to consider are job-related benefits. Once accounting for lavish benefits, some researchers conclude that public teachers are arguably OVERPAID. (And at the very least adequately paid) [h] They argue that generous benefits for public-school teachers often go unrecognized, allowing public perception to discount the true nature of their compensation. For instance:

• Pension programs for public-school teachers are significantly more generous than the typical private-sector retirement plan, but this generosity is hidden by public-sector accounting practices that allow lower employer contributions than a private-sector plan promising the same retirement benefits. [h]

• Most teachers accrue generous retiree health benefits as they work, but retiree health care is excluded from Bureau of Labor Statistics benefits data and thus frequently overlooked. While rarely offered in the private sector, retiree health coverage for teachers is worth roughly an additional 10 percent of wages. [h]

• Job security for teachers is considerably greater than in comparable professions, worth about an extra 1 percent of wages. [h] Per research from Fordham Institute, it's nearly impossible to fire teachers. "Across the country, most districts and states continue to confer lifetime tenure on teachers, weak teachers still take years to dismiss if they achieve tenured status, and any attempt to dismiss an ineffective veteran teacher remains vulnerable to costly challenges at every stage in the process - from evaluation, to remediation, to the dismissal decision, and beyond." This job-security is a perk largely unique to educators, and the benefit of it should therefore be considered within any debate regarding compensation.

Lastly, 2008 Data from the Digest of Education Statistics show that base salaries for Elementary and Secondary PUBLIC School Teachers are 36.91% higher than Elementary and Secondary PRIVATE School Teachers. [j] This is because public teachers’ unions provide an unnatural advantage via political lobbying and campaign fundraising, influencing the very people they later bargain with during compensation negotiations. This is a power no private unions possess, since political elections don't determine who heads privately run schools. These perverse incentives arguably allow public teachers' unions to negotiate above-market wages, and thus largely explain the discrepancy between public and private teachers. It also strongly undermines the contention that public teachers are supposedly "underpaid" when their private counterparts - who are subjected to market pressures - earn far less.

CONCLUSION:
Given that K-12 teachers earn approximately $58,000 a year while working fewer than 10 months, with an approximate wage of $30.20 - $34.06 per hour before benefits, given that they appear to work slightly fewer hours a week than comparable professions, given that public teachers (in particular) earn far better benefits than the average citizen, and given that public teachers earn more than their private counterparts, it's highly misleading to claim that teachers in the U.S. are "underpaid."
--------------------------
NOTE: WAC is already aware that teachers work before students arrive and after students leave. We're already aware that they work outside the classroom and often times work at home. All of this is accounted for, especially in the data set where teachers self-reported the amount of hours they worked each week. Our review did NOT omit this information.

 
This is me copying and pasting, practically word for word. Stats look solid, but thought I would share just to drum up discussion...

Thank you for your service to our country USMC Cat because I understand how badass our military is but I am afraid that our enemies understand it more than I. They understand that going up against our guns is a fight that they can't win so they will fight the war in other ways from within. They are good at it too. They are using our own soldiers against us for class warfare to divide our country.
 
Well, gee. Guess who taught those fancy pants researches to do math. I’ll tell you, teachers!!! They should be paid so much more since no one works harder besides stay-at-home parents of course, LOL!
 
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I mean are we happy or mad that teachers are paid relatively well? What is the point of this thread? I think they should be paid well, they carry a big responsibility in our society, do you guys think they should be paid badly? We going to make a thread about doctors being overpaid next?
 
According to goarmy.com an O2 with 4 years service makes $83K. Lots of people making good cabbage.

My security company in Afghanistan was being led by a Lt. He was regularly the OIC of our convoys, which consisted of anywhere between 80-200 vehicles at any time and carried millions upon millions of dollars worth of equipment, vehicles, fuel, and medical supplies.

Basically what you're saying is, the guy leading that convoy was making $9.40/hr, because it is a 24/7 job.
 
Thank you for your service to our country USMC Cat because I understand how badass our military is but I am afraid that our enemies understand it more than I. They understand that going up against our guns is a fight that they can't win so they will fight the war in other ways from within. They are good at it too. They are using our own soldiers against us for class warfare to divide our country.

Thank you.

Not sure what you mean, though. Lol
 
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Teachers have no one but their union to blame. Without being able to get rid of crappy teachers the job being done isn’t good enough for anyone to properly value the profession. Also it’s stupid that English teachers make as much as math teachers. This is why our country sucks at math. Anyone with a math degree can make easily find a job making $80,000 in KY ($100,000+ in many states). Forcing folks into making half their pay at the start of their career is a no go. Science teachers are probably only slightly less underpaid than math teachers. On the other hand getting a $50,000 a year job for an English major or a History major is a freaking fantastic gig, probably 40% more than what they are worth. The fact that all are paid the same is a union problem.
 
Odd trend in this country to shit on teachers for their pay when education is such an import part of life. It's like some people would like to see our education system completely fail just so the rich and powerful can get richer and more powerful by exploiting the uneducated.

I don’t believe teachers control the curriculum. They’re all teaching the same crap, right?
 
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Also it’s stupid that English teachers make as much as math teachers. This is why our country sucks at math. Anyone with a math degree can make easily find a job making $80,000 in KY ($100,000+ in many states).

The problem with this statement is that you don't need a math degree to teach math (at least up until Calculus).
 
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Odd trend in this country to shit on teachers for their pay when education is such an import part of life. It's like some people would like to see our education system completely fail just so the rich and powerful can get richer and more powerful by exploiting the uneducated.

EXACTLY! That's why all the rich people keep moving to Africa, Mexico, Afghanistan, Syria, Bolivia, Peru, and Eastern Kentucky. To get richer and more powerful exploiting the uneducated.
 
My security company in Afghanistan was being led by a Lt. He was regularly the OIC of our convoys, which consisted of anywhere between 80-200 vehicles at any time and carried millions upon millions of dollars worth of equipment, vehicles, fuel, and medical supplies.

Basically what you're saying is, the guy leading that convoy was making $9.40/hr, because it is a 24/7 job.
Assuming that he was at his desk 24/7 every day and deployed overseas in a combat zone every day he was in the service he was severely underpaid.
Are you saying that is what is the norm for every Lt?
 
Assuming that he was at his desk 24/7 every day and deployed overseas in a combat zone every day he was in the service he was severely underpaid.
Are you saying that is what is the norm for every Lt?

It was for mine.

But yes, every LT works 24/7. Even when I was asleep in my bed, at 3am, I was still woken up numerous times to go police call tree bark out in the grass, and that was even when I was still stateside. If I wasn't 'working', I'd have told them to **** off.

The job doesn't stop because you are 'done for the day'.

On deployment? There were times where I was awake for 48 hours or more. It definitely wasn't unusual.
 
The problem with this statement is that you don't need a math degree to teach math (at least up until Calculus).

Not a teacher. But I started my education at UK as a education major. You are correct that you don't have to be a math major to be a math teacher. But at least at UK, to get a degree in teaching math, you have a heavy math class load.
 
I don’t believe teachers control the curriculum. They’re all teaching the same crap, right?
Even if they are all have to teach the same material, that doesn't mean all teachers are going to be equally as adept at teaching the material. This would be like saying all basketball coaches are the same because they all teach basketball.
 
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Wait a second, what if the millions upon millions in supplies that our tax dollars a paid a private company more millions upon millions to escort a half a world away was spent here instead? I think I solved this one, guys.

Good game everyone, somebody get Mitch McConnell on on the horn.
 
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Maybe we shouldn’t be in Iraq and Afghanistan for 16 years with no end in sight. Not cheap.

Teacher pay is fine. I think more should be done in terms of school infrastructure. My wife is a hs teacher. Her school provided laptop is 7 years old, has 2GB of RAM, and takes 20 minutes plus to restart. Heck, we offered to buy one but the only way to allow a non-Jcps laptop on the network is to pretty much surrender it to them.

She also had to fundraise from donors to get Kindle Fires for her classroom.

Pay is fine. Let’s see some investment in updating schools and technology.
 
Not a teacher. But I started my education at UK as a education major. You are correct that you don't have to be a math major to be a math teacher. But at least at UK, to get a degree in teaching math, you have a heavy math class load.
Usually, it’s just a class or two short of an actual math degree itself (same for English, Languages, etc.) For many new teachers who want to be secondary teachers, schools have them complete a traditional degree and then take a specialized teaching Masters immediately afterwards.

I don’t personally know anyone under 50 who is crying about pay, espiecially teachers. Everyone knows what they’re signing up for. Everything in Ky has been about benefits which, for better or worse, have been agreed to for years. Oklahoma and WV are different stories completely.
 
Considering that teachers work 190 days a year, while the rest of us work 240, they are well paid.

Considering that as a taxpayer I’m paying their salary, I think I’m owed as much as possible for my dollar. I’m not getting it.

I’ve never understood why college degrees are required to teach elementary grades. I figure any high school graduate can teach a third grader how to read, write and do basic math. And they could do it for half the salary.
 
Look, I can't stand whiny liberal teachers as much as the next person, and I do think they forget to look at their benefits when making this argument. They always seem to gloss over the summer vacations. You can still make $10k/summer if you really wanted to... but no, they don't because that's why they're teachers, so they can continue living like a student.

HOWEVER, do we really want to be nickle and diming the workers that have a huge hand in our future? The ones that have to deal with our shitty children? Their political views, that often bleed into the classroom, aside.. I'm fine paying teachers more. There's already a shortage of teachers and it seems like a profession that's waning in popularity.

I'm kind of inclined to say "eff it" pay them more money, but make them more accountable, and just be done with it. Would anyone really be opposed to teacher's making more money?
 
Also, how come no one blames a school administrator (principal/vice principal) for keeping bad teachers around?

Teachers can be fired (especially in their first 2 years). But most admins are exceptionally lazy and don’t really like to observe classrooms and discipline teachers

Can they?

A teacher charged with 23 counts of lewd conductin his classroom successfully thwarted attempts by the Los Angeles Unified School District to fire him. In the process, the teacher, who is accused of spoon-feeding his semen to blindfolded children, managed to retain lifetime health-benefits provided by the nation’s second-largest school system.

Former Miramonte Elementary School teacher Mark Berndt also automatically receives nearly $4,000 a month in pension from the California State Teachers' Retirement System. Investigators were a year away from filing charges against Berndt, 61, when they brought copies of disturbing photos to the school principal on Jan. 3, 2011, according to investigators. Sheriff's investigators had pictures of boys and girls gagged with tape, blindfolded and some were being fed a milky substance from a spoon.
 
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This is me copying and pasting, practically word for word. Stats look solid, but thought I would share just to drum up discussion...

While teachers are often honorable people whom we don't seek to demean, statistics show they're paid quite adequately relative to comparable professionals, once accounting for time-worked, education level, and benefits.

Per the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, the median annual wages (as of 2016) were as follows:

• $55,490 = Kindergarten & Elementary School Teachers [a]

• $56,720 = Middle School Teachers

$58,030 = High School Teachers [c]

That averages to an annual salary of $56,747. For context, in May 2016, the median annual wage for ALL workers was only $37,040. [c]
While that's already 53% higher, its not really a fair representation, since we also need to look at time-worked, educational requirements, and benefits.

Per a BLS study titled "Teachers' Work Patterns," full time teachers worked 24 fewer minutes per weekday and 42 fewer minutes per Saturday than other full-time professionals. On Sundays, teachers and other professionals worked, on average, about the same amount of time. [d] Note that in this study, “other professionals” refers to health care professionals, business and financial operations professionals, architects and engineers, community and social services professionals, managers, and others. [d] (Essentially, professions which have similarly difficult educational requirements.) Therefore, this estimate suggests teachers are working 2.5 hours LESS in any given work-week than comparable professionals.

If concerned we may be inadvertently under-representing hours worked by teachers, we can address that via the Census Bureau’s Current Population Survey, where teachers self-report. In other words, they tell us what they believe they're doing, and we simply take that at face value. Thus, it's far less possible for us to accidentally underrepresent their hours worked. Per the CPS, "Teachers themselves report a mean work week of 43.7 hours, versus 44.8 hours for non-teachers with a college degree." [e] THIS estimate would put them at roughly 1 hour of work LESS than comparable workers.

Looking at full time teachers, the BLS also broke it down by age group:

• Teachers aged 20-29: 37 hours per week [f]
• Teachers aged 30-39: 36 hours per week [f]
• Teachers aged 40-49: 40 hours per week [f]
• Teachers aged 50-59: 42 hours per week [f]

Taken together, just for a rough estimate, these average out to about 38.75 hours.

Thus, in reviewing all of the above estimates, we can safely approximate that - when not presently on vacation - teachers work roughly 1 - 2.5 FEWER hours a week than comparable workers.

Now what about the number of weeks worked in a year? Many people will anecdotally claim that teachers only work 9 months out of the year, and the BBC even reports that teachers have 13 weeks off, but districts in the U.S. differ. Per the BLS, "Many work the traditional 10-month school year and have a 2-month break during the summer. They also have a short midwinter break." [g] That would equals a minimum of nine weeks off a year, leaving a maximum of 43 work weeks to divide their annual salaries into. THIS seems to be the most "conservative" estimate regarding vacation weeks, so to give teachers the benefit of the doubt, we'll use this one in our estimates. Using the average annual salary we stated above of $56,747, that would be about $1319.70 earned in a work-week. If we then take the highest estimate of hours worked, self reported by teachers to be 43.7 hours a week, that would come out to an hourly wage of $30.20 before benefits. Using the lower end of the spectrum (38.75 hours, which we explained above), their hourly wage would instead be $34.06. Therefore, we can safely approximate that teachers are paid an average rate of $30.20 - $34.06 per hour, which most people wouldn't consider a "bad" wage. (Especially compared to the median wage for ALL workers, divided by 52 weeks and a 40 hour workweek, which comes to $17.98 per hour.)

The next thing to consider are job-related benefits. Once accounting for lavish benefits, some researchers conclude that public teachers are arguably OVERPAID. (And at the very least adequately paid) [h] They argue that generous benefits for public-school teachers often go unrecognized, allowing public perception to discount the true nature of their compensation. For instance:

• Pension programs for public-school teachers are significantly more generous than the typical private-sector retirement plan, but this generosity is hidden by public-sector accounting practices that allow lower employer contributions than a private-sector plan promising the same retirement benefits. [h]

• Most teachers accrue generous retiree health benefits as they work, but retiree health care is excluded from Bureau of Labor Statistics benefits data and thus frequently overlooked. While rarely offered in the private sector, retiree health coverage for teachers is worth roughly an additional 10 percent of wages. [h]

• Job security for teachers is considerably greater than in comparable professions, worth about an extra 1 percent of wages. [h] Per research from Fordham Institute, it's nearly impossible to fire teachers. "Across the country, most districts and states continue to confer lifetime tenure on teachers, weak teachers still take years to dismiss if they achieve tenured status, and any attempt to dismiss an ineffective veteran teacher remains vulnerable to costly challenges at every stage in the process - from evaluation, to remediation, to the dismissal decision, and beyond." This job-security is a perk largely unique to educators, and the benefit of it should therefore be considered within any debate regarding compensation.

Lastly, 2008 Data from the Digest of Education Statistics show that base salaries for Elementary and Secondary PUBLIC School Teachers are 36.91% higher than Elementary and Secondary PRIVATE School Teachers. [j] This is because public teachers’ unions provide an unnatural advantage via political lobbying and campaign fundraising, influencing the very people they later bargain with during compensation negotiations. This is a power no private unions possess, since political elections don't determine who heads privately run schools. These perverse incentives arguably allow public teachers' unions to negotiate above-market wages, and thus largely explain the discrepancy between public and private teachers. It also strongly undermines the contention that public teachers are supposedly "underpaid" when their private counterparts - who are subjected to market pressures - earn far less.

CONCLUSION:
Given that K-12 teachers earn approximately $58,000 a year while working fewer than 10 months, with an approximate wage of $30.20 - $34.06 per hour before benefits, given that they appear to work slightly fewer hours a week than comparable professions, given that public teachers (in particular) earn far better benefits than the average citizen, and given that public teachers earn more than their private counterparts, it's highly misleading to claim that teachers in the U.S. are "underpaid."
--------------------------
NOTE: WAC is already aware that teachers work before students arrive and after students leave. We're already aware that they work outside the classroom and often times work at home. All of this is accounted for, especially in the data set where teachers self-reported the amount of hours they worked each week. Our review did NOT omit this information.

First of all I love it when someone takes the time to search out the facts from a reputable source and make their case in a clear fashion - so well done there.

However where I would disagree with you is in the number of hours teachers work. I think you are looking at "one the clock" not including "off the clock" hours. My sister in law is a retired teacher and she put in 50, 60+ hours a week when you factor in paper grading, test grading, disciplinary issues, before and after school functions etc. Also teachers today are required to do a lot of "non teacher" stuff like cafeteria and clean up projects, and they also sometimes have to buy supplies out of their own money due to lack of funding.

My biggest gripe with teachers unions which you point out, is with tenured status which provides job security regardless of how poor performance is in many cases. There is nothing comparable to that in the private sector that I can think of. I'm not necessarily in favor of dumping teacher unions but I do think states and local school boards should have the authority to evaluate and review teacher performance, like any other employer and make chances as they see fit. IOW the focus should be on what is best for the kids, not what's best for the teachers.
 
Man, I need to go where they are pulling those stats from. I teach in Tennessee (neighboring county to Nashville) and my district tops out at about $60,000. Williamson County TN, one of the best districts in the country, tops out at about $70,000. That's with a PhD and 21+ years of experience. Not saying those median numbers are wrong, just saying they are surprisingly high from my experience.
 
According to goarmy.com an O2 with 4 years service makes $83K. Lots of people making good cabbage.
Teachers get a lot more time off than our military and as stated before, the hours worked per day is a lot more on regular days as well.
 
It was for mine.

But yes, every LT works 24/7. Even when I was asleep in my bed, at 3am, I was still woken up numerous times to go police call tree bark out in the grass, and that was even when I was still stateside. If I wasn't 'working', I'd have told them to **** off.

The job doesn't stop because you are 'done for the day'.

On deployment? There were times where I was awake for 48 hours or more. It definitely wasn't unusual.
On many occasions in the military I was up 48 hours plus. On a few occasions 72 and one time 84 with no sleep. You do this in training and combat. When you go to the field for 2-4 weeks depending on the exercise, you may get at the most 4 hours sleep at night and on many occasions as stated above, none. As a Drill instructor for three years, I was in before the trainees woke up (too wake them up) and there after they were in the racks (had to put on counseling how each did for the day). Got home around midnight most times and in around 5am. We were there 7 days a week for 13 weeks (OSUT) and may get a cycle break of a week or 2 but still had to come in to the unit for PT ourselves on weekdays and generally worked until 5pm. Most units do PT (Physical Training) at 6am and that starts the workday. Ending formations for the day were around 5pm unless there was more s work to be done. The old commercial that we do more before 9am than most do all day was not far off.
 
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Maybe we shouldn’t be in Iraq and Afghanistan for 16 years with no end in sight. Not cheap.

Teacher pay is fine. I think more should be done in terms of school infrastructure. My wife is a hs teacher. Her school provided laptop is 7 years old, has 2GB of RAM, and takes 20 minutes plus to restart. Heck, we offered to buy one but the only way to allow a non-Jcps laptop on the network is to pretty much surrender it to them.

She also had to fundraise from donors to get Kindle Fires for her classroom.

Pay is fine. Let’s see some investment in updating schools and technology.
Something we can agree on.
 
Tell me again how many years you were a teacher?
Besides if we have to pay you while you are asleep maybe you’re overpaid.
Tell me how many years you were in the military. I know plenty of teachers around here that brag and joke about how much they love it because of the time off.
 
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First of all I love it when someone takes the time to search out the facts from a reputable source and make their case in a clear fashion - so well done there.

However where I would disagree with you is in the number of hours teachers work. I think you are looking at "one the clock" not including "off the clock" hours. My sister in law is a retired teacher and she put in 50, 60+ hours a week when you factor in paper grading, test grading, disciplinary issues, before and after school functions etc. Also teachers today are required to do a lot of "non teacher" stuff like cafeteria and clean up projects, and they also sometimes have to buy supplies out of their own money due to lack of funding.

This was addressed in the OP: If concerned we may be inadvertently under-representing hours worked by teachers, we can address that via the Census Bureau’s Current Population Survey, where teachers self-report. In other words, they tell us what they believe they're doing, and we simply take that at face value. Thus, it's far less possible for us to accidentally underrepresent their hours worked. Per the CPS, "Teachers themselves report a mean work week of 43.7 hours, versus 44.8 hours for non-teachers with a college degree." [e] THIS estimate would put them at roughly 1 hour of work LESS than comparable workers.


My biggest gripe with teachers unions which you point out, is with tenured status which provides job security regardless of how poor performance is in many cases. There is nothing comparable to that in the private sector that I can think of. I'm not necessarily in favor of dumping teacher unions but I do think states and local school boards should have the authority to evaluate and review teacher performance, like any other employer and make chances as they see fit. IOW the focus should be on what is best for the kids, not what's best for the teachers.

Agreed. Its harder to fire a teacher then it is a government employee these days. When you consider the benefits (like steady employment for as long as you are breathing even if you committed a crime short of murder), it's awfully nice.
 
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