So before the Wisconsin game Cals record was 42-13 against ranked teams ..

[yoshukai]

Counting the Wisconsin game after today he is 10 -12 against ranked teams . Did that game take something out him like it did me ? Did platooning hurt our recruiting that much ? Is that the first year Duke embraced the one&done? Is that the year Antigua and Strickland left ? Is it a combination?

 

[morgousky]

Counting the Wisconsin game after today he is 10 -12 against ranked teams . Did that game take something out him like it did me ? Did platooning hurt our recruiting that much ? Is that the first year Duke embraced the one&done? Is that the year Antigua and Strickland left ? Is it a combination?

And NIKE pushing duke for K's going out legacy, it's just a bunch of things.

It's also Cal either not seeing it coming or refusing to adjust. You've got to make it happen in the moment, not when it breaks.

 

[miracle7s]

well if you believe what the recruiting people say and that is the team from 2 seasons before beget the current recruiting class. so 2010 got us 2012 and 2012 got us 2014 and so so on. Then the only "superstar" class in the last 4 was 2017 which would of have been gotten by 2015 and the platoon so to say the platooning hurt recruiting i think is not true. That team got 6 of the 10 wins vs ranked teams by the way. Now the other stuff yes to all of it. First year Duke started to recruit like us, Orlando and Rod left, and yes I think Wisconsin undeniably took something out of Cal. How could it not? You've spent your entire career striving for a goal like going undefeated, you finally get into the hall of fame and the haters have to give you respect, you're going to be able to beat Duke for said title to give you 2 to K's 1 in the time you've been here and put Kentucky on top of the mountain as the preeminent college program with no doubts. 2.5 hours later all of that is out the window and nothing you did that year will be remembered as anything other than another year where Cal had all the talent and lost with it again. It has to destroy Cal internally.

 

[StevieJFTW07]

YES, THANK YOU. I have been saying it for a while now. It's the Wisconsin loss in 2015..also coupled with Duke winning the Title that year. I mean, play on the court and recruiting go hand and hand. Duke succeeded (With the refs help..Wisconsin got raped by the officials) and we failed (Somewhat thanks to Higgins and his missed shot clock violation but thanks mostly to Coach Cal's stall ball). We've been seeing the difference in recruiting ever since. UK's defense has also been horrendous for the vast majority of the past three seasons as well. UK's record is 76-25 including that Wisconsin game through the last 101 games..In Coach Cal's first 3+ seasons here, he was 103-14..for a comparison. From 2013-2015, Coach Cal was 88-24..for another comparison.

I'd also like to know how many points per game UK's defense is giving up since that Wisconsin game..and then compare it to how many points per game his UK teams were allowing through his first 117 games here. I bet it's a night and day difference.

 

[*Bleedingblue*]

10 loss Cal?

 

[Wildcat Sheli]

Cal made the comment a couple days ago that he was “still hacked” about the Wisconsin loss and not going 40-0.

I don’t think the solution, though, is to “never watch the tape” of season-ending losses. They might reveal some correctable patterns in late-game situations.

 

[dorkmeister]

Its not the X and O, it the Jim and Joes. We had better players on those teams. The last couple years we are still getting good players but not program changers like Wall, Cousins, Davis, Kat, Teague, etc...

 

[sluggercatfan]

Cal made the comment a couple days ago that he was “still hacked” about the Wisconsin loss and not going 40-0.

I don’t think the solution, though, is to “never watch the tape” of season-ending losses. They might reveal some correctable patterns in late-game situations.

If he would learn to call a TIME OUT he might be able to correct some of this.

 

[yoshukai]

YES, THANK YOU. I have been saying it for a while now. It's the Wisconsin loss in 2015..also coupled with Duke winning the Title that year. I mean, play on the court and recruiting go hand and hand. Duke succeeded (With the refs help..Wisconsin got raped by the officials) and we failed (Somewhat thanks to Higgins and his missed shot clock violation but thanks mostly to Coach Cal's stall ball). We've been seeing the difference in recruiting ever since. UK's defense has also been horrendous for the vast majority of the past three seasons as well. UK's record is 76-25 including that Wisconsin game through the last 101 games..In Coach Cal's first 3+ seasons here, he was 103-14..for a comparison. From 2013-2015, Coach Cal was 88-24..for another comparison.

I'd also like to know how many points per game UK's defense is giving up since that Wisconsin game..and then compare it to how many points per game his UK teams were allowing through his first 117 games here. I bet it's a night and day difference.

I would like to add that the NCAA selection committee gave Duke the path we should have had .

 

[GonzoCat90]

Report: Coach beats better opponents when his team is more talented.

 

[StevieJFTW07]

I would like to add that the NCAA selection committee gave Duke the path we should have had .

Oh definitely. Without a doubt. 16 seed obviously but then 8 seed San Diego St. ? 4 seed Utah ? 2 seed Gonzaga ? 7 seed Michigan St. ? Didn't have to play Wisconsin or UK until the Title game. Man, what a cakewalk for Duke. Seriously..at least ten teams could have won or at least made the Title game that year with that draw.

 

[yoshukai]

Report: Coach beats better opponents when his team is more talented.

Then the question is , why has our talent slipped. And can we turn it around?

 

[yoshukai]

Oh definitely. Without a doubt. 16 seed obviously but then 8 seed San Diego St. ? 4 seed Utah ? 2 seed Gonzaga ? 7 seed Michigan St. ? Didn't have to play Wisconsin or UK until the Title game. Man, what a cakewalk for Duke. Seriously..at least ten teams could have won or at least made the Title game that year with that draw.

I actually think Notre Dame was the hottest team at the time and had a great chance to win the title if we hadn't knocked them out .

 

[MWes11]

Report: Coach beats better opponents when his team is more talented.

lol.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Then the question is , why has our talent slipped. And can we turn it around?

I think there are layers. The 38-1 team hurt recruiting because that next class was weird and afraid of platooning because it wasn't an elite class. Those guys needed to showcase themselves to be drafted. Think back: Newman, Zimmerman, Diamond Stone, Cheick Diallo, Simmons went to play for LSU, Ivan Rabb, Chase Jeter. Not great.

We landed Skal and Murray, but Skal was coming off a year of injuries and a year of not being allowed to play, so he was way behind when he got here.

Last year, we were a crooked ref and a miracle shot away from a title game.

This year, the recruiting class talent overall is down and we had virtually no holdover to help bolster it. Duke landed 4 of the top 8 players, added them to Grayson Allen and 5 star Bolden and still have like 6 losses.

We pretty clearly have lots of guys who will/should return, so there was no room for a guy like Zion to come here. Cal expects to lose 3, plus maybe Tai, so he's added three guys at those positions and is keeping tabs on a big man.

 

[Neue Regel]

I would like to add that the NCAA selection committee gave Duke the path we should have had .

You do understand that you still would have had to have beaten Wisconsin right?

Also, blame Tom Izzo for pissing on the party. It's not Duke's responsibility to make sure all the regions hold together. He got his team to the Final Four and that's that.

 

[Rupp'sRunt]

We pretty clearly have lots of guys who will/should return, so there was no room for a guy like Zion to come here. Cal expects to lose 3, plus maybe Tai, so he's added three guys at those positions and is keeping tabs on a big man.

So you think Zion was scared off by PJ JV and green? Those guys are far from studs.

 

[Blue63Madison]

Our talent level has clearly dropped since that 2015 team, and next year doesn't look any better. The argument could easily be made that Cal's tenure at UK peaked in 2015 (or even 2012). Hopefully that's not the case. Time will tell.

 

[yoshukai]

You do understand that you still would have had to have beaten Wisconsin right?

Also, blame Tom Izzo for pissing on the party. It's not Duke's responsibility to make sure all the regions hold together. He got his team to the Final Four and that's that.

, I don't think so . I think we would have been playing you guys in the championship because you would have beaten Wisconsin in the final four game .

 

[Neue Regel]

, I don't think so . I think we would have been playing you guys in the championship because you would have beaten Wisconsin in the final four game .

Oh I see what you're saying. I mixed up seasons. Damn they're all running together these days. #old

 

[GonzoCat90]

So you think Zion was scared off by PJ JV and green? Those guys are far from studs.

I'm saying that we seemed to "lead" for him until it became clear that Washington was likely going to return and that Vanderbilt hadn't even played so far.

Those guys don't have to be studs, they're obviously not going to sit as returning sophomores and Zion Williamson isn't going to split time with PJ, Vanderbilt, Wenyen and SKJ when he can have the same spotlight and caliber of program at Duke with all the minutes he wants and a coach who doesn't play his bench.

 

[Neue Regel]

Our talent level has clearly dropped since that 2015 team, and next year doesn't look any better. The argument could easily be made that Cal's tenure at UK peaked in 2015 (or even 2012). Hopefully that's not the case. Time will tell.

Maybe it's like someone else said about this years incoming HS class not being as strong even though they are 5 * recruits?

 

[yoshukai]

Oh I see what you're saying. I mixed up seasons. Damn they're all running together these days. #old

You gotta admit, that would have been EPIC . Championship game, good guy (K) vs bad guy ( Cal) . Bad guy going for an undefeated season, good guy the last guy that can stop him . The media and fans would have had a field day . Of course if had beaten Wisconsin it would have been like that also .

 

[yoshukai]

Maybe it's like someone else said about this years incoming HS class not being as strong even though they are 5 * recruits?

The top five look pretty dang strong to me . But they aren't playing for us .

 

[cathouse]

I am going to get scalded for saying this, but the Wisconsin game may prove to be Cal’s Waterloo. Cal lost a lot of credibility for the way he handled the last 20 minutes of that game. Cal is loyal to his players to the detriment of team success, which not only impacts wins/losses but also impacts other players morale/goals/ambitions and desire to give it all for the team.
In an effort to empower the twins to hopefully enable them to secure a spot in the draft(as I feel sure Cal made that commitment to them and their parents) Cal chose to play them ahead of Booker and Ulis which was total nonsense. Cal’s stubbornness (ego) or loyalty to the twins cost Cal a perfect season, cost UK a national championship, but worst of all it cost Cal coaching credibility with recruits and their parents which other coaches are using against Cal to siphon off some of the top recruits who do not want to risk sitting behind the previous year recruits that failed to get drafted.
The platoon system also worked against Cal because he abandoned it just when he needed to stick with it the most (last half of Wisconsin game.) Cal will never admit it, but that decision to play the twins over more talented players changed everything for his system that he was trying to sustain at KY.
Easy to sell top recruits on why it is risky signing with Cal, you may end up riding the bench behind a lesser talented one and done that wasn’t one and done.
Fire away. JMO

 

[gossie21]

You do understand that you still would have had to have beaten Wisconsin right?

Also, blame Tom Izzo for pissing on the party. It's not Duke's responsibility to make sure all the regions hold together. He got his team to the Final Four and that's that.

The biggest issue wasn't our path. Although in an alternate reality scenario I think Duke would have played (and beat) Wisconsin in the Final Four.

The biggest issue for us in not winning the title in 2015 would be the common denominator with our 2017 and 2011 tournament losses.

 

[gossie21]

Then the question is , why has our talent slipped. And can we turn it around?

Because we replaced this

With this

 

[Wildcat-in-STL]

The answer is simple...... change his methods back to a more traditional system since the one and done is ending soon anyways plus he's not getting the elite guys anymore also.... Go back to his Umass / Memphis days of a traditional offense / defense / practicing methods.

If our downwards trend since the wisconsin loss is because he's not getting the program changers and winning with freshmen is hard.... then its not going to change in the future with the one and done coming to an end so basically that dooms Cal to retire or get fired... so its either change or dark days are still ahead.

 

[irishcat1965]

Coach K’s record is 15-13 in the same period. Care to put up the top ten coaches record against the same competition during the same time period?

 

[Wildcat-in-STL]

Coach K’s record is 15-13 in the same period. Care to put up the top ten coaches record against the same competition during the same time period?

Go look up Nova's , KU's, UNC's record against ranked teams in this time period and let us know

 

[CatEye2010]

The biggest issue wasn't our path. Although in an alternate reality scenario I think Duke would have played (and beat) Wisconsin in the Final Four.

The biggest issue for us in not winning the title in 2015 would be the common denominator with our 2017 and 2011 tournament losses: Higgins

FIFY.

 

[irishcat1965]

Go look up Nova's , KU's, UNC's record against ranked teams in this time period and let us know

I looked up K’s. Someone else can look up the others. I do know K has lost 25 games the last two and half years. Is that trending down enough for you?

 

[Wildcat-in-STL]

I looked up K’s. Someone else can look up the others.

you looked up the other one and done..... you ever think maybe the new rules put in place after 2015 season could of changed some aspects of the one and done?

 

[gossie21]

FIFY.

You didn't fix it. I was trying to be subtle.

 

[GonzoCat90]

If we're going to rehash the Wisconsin game for the billionth time, can we at least keep it within the realm of what actually happened?

People say over and over that Cal is too loyal and he played the twins because they're his favorites and cost us the game. It isn't true.

Devin Booker was beaten like he stole something all night long by Sam Dekker. I mean embarrassed as badly as I've ever seen a good player be embarrassed at this level.

The only person nearly as bad as Booker was Lyles in the exact same way. Neither guy stopped him, and Lyles watched about 7 offensive rebounds be gobbled up by Wisconsin.

Between them, they had 2 rebounds, 1 assist, no steals and no blocks.

The twins shot 50% from the floor, both scored in double figures, and had 1 turnover between them.

Willie was also a total space cadet and was destroyed by Kaminski while also not rebounding or being engaged. But people blame the twins.

 

[UK90]

Yep, that one loss really seemed to steal our program's mojo. And making it worse was Duke winning the title two days later.

Seems like that weekend the balance of power switched, and Duke went back to being the sport's cool "IT" program. Imagine how different the last three season might've gone if just that one game had a different outcome and we pulled off 40-0.

 

[Rupp'sRunt]

I'm saying that we seemed to "lead" for him until it became clear that Washington was likely going to return and that Vanderbilt hadn't even played so far.

Those guys don't have to be studs, they're obviously not going to sit as returning sophomores and Zion Williamson isn't going to split time with PJ, Vanderbilt, Wenyen and SKJ when he can have the same spotlight and caliber of program at Duke with all the minutes he wants and a coach who doesn't play his bench.

Yeah it makes much more sense to go play with Barret Reddish. Can't wait to see how Zion pans out as the 6'6 PF

 

[gossie21]

If we're going to rehash the Wisconsin game for the billionth time, can we at least keep it within the realm of what actually happened?

People say over and over that Cal is too loyal and he played the twins because they're his favorites and cost us the game. It isn't true.

Devin Booker was beaten like he stole something all night long by Sam Dekker. I mean embarrassed as badly as I've ever seen a good player be embarrassed at this level.

The only person nearly as bad as Booker was Lyles in the exact same way. Neither guy stopped him, and Lyles watched about 7 offensive rebounds be gobbled up by Wisconsin.

Between them, they had 2 rebounds, 1 assist, no steals and no blocks.

The twins shot 50% from the floor, both scored in double figures, and had 1 turnover between them.

Willie was also a total space cadet and was destroyed by Kaminski while also not rebounding or being engaged. But people blame the twins.

I think you are asking too much of people with that first line.

 

[Collison1]

And NIKE pushing duke for K's going out legacy, it's just a bunch of things.

It's also Cal either not seeing it coming or refusing to adjust. You've got to make it happen in the moment, not when it breaks.

How long are you going to go on using this excuse? You wonder why other fans pile on Kentucky? It's quote like this. What do UK's recruiting rankings look like since the Wisconsin game? I would be willing to bet top 5 every year. Hell, that is all you brag about around here. Bottom line is that UK gets great recruits, has the facilities, has the fan support, has the $$, has Cal coaching under 19 basketball. You have it all, but yet we here about refs having it out for UK and Nike and every other conspiracy. That is why folks pile on. There are many on this board that are just plain delusional. UK has it better than 99.9% of the programs out there but it is college basketball and weird stretches happen. All the good coaches go through them

 

[morgousky]

How long are you going to go on using this excuse? You wonder why other fans pile on Kentucky? It's quote like this. What do UK's recruiting rankings look like since the Wisconsin game? I would be willing to bet top 5 every year. Hell, that is all you brag about around here. Bottom line is that UK gets great recruits, has the facilities, has the fan support, has the $$, has Cal coaching under 19 basketball. You have it all, but yet we here about refs having it out for UK and Nike and every other conspiracy. That is why folks pile on. There are many on this board that are just plain delusional. UK has it better than 99.9% of the programs out there but it is college basketball and weird stretches happen. All the good coaches go through them

Why are you pretending in your head that it's Kentucky against the majority opinion when in fact Duke is seen by everyone as a pussy program that gets every benefit in the world?