Question re: creating an offensive scheme

[gamecockcat]

I've never played organized football, so this is a legit question. I'm assuming an OC goes to conferences during the off season, picks up things along the way from working with different coaches, picks up some ideas from watching opponents' offense.

Can a system, a total system, be a hodge podge of ideas, formations, plays, etc? For instance, could much of your short passing plays be based on West Coast offense principles, while the intermediate throws come more from Shanahan offense and longer throws and running game from Mcvay's system?

 

[TuckyFan]

My observation is most of them are a disciple of the system they came up in. Some do morph over to a system they work in, though. Then, smart ones tweak and may even tweak based on personnel (see Mike Leach, an air raid guy who became more run oriented/balanced over time).

 

[gamecockcat]

I'm just attempting to make some sense of Marrow's comment about not having the right players to run Hamdan's offense.

First, if the system is comprehensive enough, shouldn't it be adaptable to any roster?

Second, surely any OC with half a brain has to assume the roster isn't going to be ideal if he's bringing a new offense to a team, right?

Third, if the type of player needs to change, won't that screw up the next OC who will bring a different system to UK? Is that really the result that we've seen with the constant OC turnover: a roster ill-suited to running the OC's system?

Or, more likely, is Vince full of BS and practicing CYA?

 

[bigblueinsanity]

There should never be any issue with not having the right personnel for a system. Your personnel should dictate the offense.

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

Every OC will have a core he believes in, but to be consistently successful he has to be willing to adapt and evolve because DCs will come up with schemes to control his offense or he will not always have the players to run his scheme.

To be honest, I never heard of the UK QB, but at BSU he had arguably the top RB in college ball and Green at QB who may be saving Sam Pittman's job. Does he need elite talent to be successful?

 

[gamecockcat]

Every OC will have a core he believes in, but to be consistently successful he has to be willing to adapt and evolve because DCs will come up with schemes to control his offense or he will not always have the players to run his scheme.

To be honest, I never heard of the UK QB, but at BSU he had arguably the top RB in college ball and Green at QB who may be saving Sam Pittman's job. Does he need elite talent to be successful?

Good question. You know, Coen was a lot 'smarter' when Levis threw to Wandale vs Leary to Brown/Key. Coincidence?

Stoops was an excellent DC at FSU, played the 'bend don't break' style there. Well, on average, I'd guess during any particular season, FSU probably had 7 or more guys on the defensive side of the ball that were headed to the NFL while Stoops was there. That would seem to cover up a whole lot of scheme deficiencies.

 

[TuckyFan]

I think @Grumpyolddawg hit it on the head. Think about something like a QB--do you prefer a mobile/DT QB or do you prefer a pocket passer? That may be based on accuracy to trust throws over the middle, strength to go over the top, etc. Different skill sets. And most players have different skill sets or strengths. Runners are power or speed. OL are run or pass, outside zone vs inside zone. All different skillsets. They should be able to do most of it but they'll have strengths. On something like a QB, if your philosophy demands accuracy and your QB has a ration of 6/5, then maybe you have some trouble dialing up some stuff for him. I think that's the argument FOR Hamden. On the other hand, BVG isn't without skill, hasn't been responsible for every one of his INTs and is mobile. Throws well on the run, particularly to the right. And we seldom move the pocket. We seldom throw over the middle but he's had some big gains over the middle. BVG's big limiting factor is that he needs to see guys and he only sees #6 (not that it's his only limiting factor). That's a problem for any scheme with a forward pass.

 

[seccats04]

Don’t believe VM’s BS for one minute. Stoops should’ve hired an OC to fit his personnel if what he’s saying is true, which it’s not. Can’t have it both ways Vince. This is totally on Stoops.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Every OC will have a core he believes in, but to be consistently successful he has to be willing to adapt and evolve because DCs will come up with schemes to control his offense or he will not always have the players to run his scheme.

To be honest, I never heard of the UK QB, but at BSU he had arguably the top RB in college ball and Green at QB who may be saving Sam Pittman's job. Does he need elite talent to be successful?

I think this is it. He does fine with a talent advantage. We need someone that does well with a talent deficiency.

 

[gamecockcat]

I think this is it. He does fine with a talent advantage. We need someone that does well with a talent deficiency.

Well, doesn't EVERY coach do well with a talent advantage, on average? I mean, Bama ran a very conservative offense for many years under Saban but they had so much more talent it was still very effective.

 

[TuckyFan]

I think @Grumpyolddawg hit it on the head. Think about something like a QB--do you prefer a mobile/DT QB or do you prefer a pocket passer? That may be based on accuracy to trust throws over the middle, strength to go over the top, etc. Different skill sets. And most players have different skill sets or strengths. Runners are power or speed. OL are run or pass, outside zone vs inside zone. All different skillsets. They should be able to do most of it but they'll have strengths. On something like a QB, if your philosophy demands accuracy and your QB has a ration of 6/5, then maybe you have some trouble dialing up some stuff for him. I think that's the argument FOR Hamden. On the other hand, BVG isn't without skill, hasn't been responsible for every one of his INTs and is mobile. Throws well on the run, particularly to the right. And we seldom move the pocket. We seldom throw over the middle but he's had some big gains over the middle. BVG's big limiting factor is that he needs to see guys and he only sees #6 (not that it's his only limiting factor). That's a problem for any scheme with a forward pass.

Sometimes you re-read your own post and it reads like a rant or a garble. Short re-word from me: yes, players have strengths and weaknesses and Hamden hasn't capitalized on that well enough. Same time, he didn't buy the groceries or even the line cooks so you have to give him a little wiggle room as the head chef. I think it's gotta be tough coming in, none of your players, none of your guys as coaches, learn the whole lot of them in pretty short order, and be productive. But, if he can't see that his madness with personnel changes is a primary problem, if he can't see that his QB throws better on the run and know moving the pocket is a classic answer for weaker pass blocking, then maybe he wouldn't figure it out anyway. It's important if there is a year 2 of Stoops/Hamden that he pick his own guys and then produce.

 

[SkyPrince1]

Don’t believe VM’s BS for one minute. Stoops should’ve hired an OC to fit his personnel if what he’s saying is true, which it’s not. Can’t have it both ways Vince. This is totally on Stoops.

No OC was going to be very successful with Brock.
He's not that talented and he had never started a game but he was the only QB UK really looked at.
Portal QB recruiting is always going to be a crap shoot.
Arkansas and UL improved while UK and FSU went backwards.

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

No OC was going to be very successful with Brock.
He's not that talented and he had never started a game but he was the only QB UK really looked at.
Portal QB recruiting is always going to be a crap shoot.
Arkansas and UL improved while UK and FSU went backwards.

I really thought BV would do pretty well with the receiving Corp he has to work with, but they just don't seem to be on the same page.

 

[ukfan1622]

Well, doesn't EVERY coach do well with a talent advantage, on average? I mean, Bama ran a very conservative offense for many years under Saban but they had so much more talent it was still very effective.

I think he means we need an overachiever instead of an underachiever.

 

[Bigbluecaleb]

Sometimes you re-read your own post and it reads like a rant or a garble. Short re-word from me: yes, players have strengths and weaknesses and Hamden hasn't capitalized on that well enough. Same time, he didn't buy the groceries or even the line cooks so you have to give him a little wiggle room as the head chef. I think it's gotta be tough coming in, none of your players, none of your guys as coaches, learn the whole lot of them in pretty short order, and be productive. But, if he can't see that his madness with personnel changes is a primary problem, if he can't see that his QB throws better on the run and know moving the pocket is a classic answer for weaker pass blocking, then maybe he wouldn't figure it out anyway. It's important if there is a year 2 of Stoops/Hamden that he pick his own guys and then produce.

💯

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Well, doesn't EVERY coach do well with a talent advantage, on average? I mean, Bama ran a very conservative offense for many years under Saban but they had so much more talent it was still very effective.

I think he means we need an overachiever instead of an underachiever.

Correct. It was not intended as a compliment.

 

[WyleECoyote]

I really thought BV would do pretty well with the receiving Corp he has to work with, but they just don't seem to be on the same page.

I still feel like having a revolving door for an offensive line has been the bigger issue for Brock than a lack of talent.

 

[Cobb4uk]

I still feel like having a revolving door for an offensive line has been the bigger issue for Brock than a lack of talent.

If you pay close attention there are times the DL is in the backfield as BV is handing the vall off or on play action.

 

[seccats04]

No OC was going to be very successful with Brock.
He's not that talented and he had never started a game but he was the only QB UK really looked at.
Portal QB recruiting is always going to be a crap shoot.
Arkansas and UL improved while UK and FSU went backwards.

Then who recruited Brock? I don’t think Bush did but was it Stoops or Marrow? Maybe Coen?

 

[JrandoUK]

No OC was going to be very successful with Brock.
He's not that talented and he had never started a game but he was the only QB UK really looked at.
Portal QB recruiting is always going to be a crap shoot.
Arkansas and UL improved while UK and FSU went backwards.

And Arky n UL have a lot better O schemes than we do!!!
I dislike Bobby Petrino a ton, but he has a hell of an offensive scheme!

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Then who recruited Brock? I don’t think Bush did but was it Stoops or Marrow? Maybe Coen?

Coen hand picked him.

Brock isnt the problem. Early season he looked great. Oc gave him no help vs sc. Then he/we looked great vs ga and ole miss because we went inside run and play action. Mixed in some tempo. Also few/no rotating qbs.

For whatever reason, after those games we abandoned that and started a straight drop offense which blew up in our face. Carries for our rbs are way down. Nothing we do is working. Constantly interrupting tempo/momentum/rhythm by rotating qbs

This is an oc problem. We need to get back to what worked for us. No idea why we ever changed but hopefully they make us at least competitive in these last few games.

 

[Boz]

Coen hand picked him.

Brock isnt the problem. Early season he looked great. Oc gave him no help vs sc. Then he/we looked great vs ga and ole miss because we went inside run and play action. Mixed in some tempo. Also few/no rotating qbs.

For whatever reason, after those games we abandoned that and started a straight drop offense which blew up in our face. Carries for our rbs are way down. Nothing we do is working. Constantly interrupting tempo/momentum/rhythm by rotating qbs

This is an oc problem. We need to get back to what worked for us. No idea why we ever changed but hopefully they make us at least competitive in these last few games.

Wrong! BVG is part of the problem. He can not read a defense. He locks on to one receiver. He holds the ball too long just to name a few. Too not hold BVG accountable for his play is wrong.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Wrong! BVG is part of the problem. He can not read a defense. He locks on to one receiver. He holds the ball too long just to name a few. Too not hold BVG accountable for his play is wrong.

Can he play better? Sure. But he isnt the problem which was the post topic.

He plays plenty well enough when we run the offense we're suited to run. When we don't, he struggles.

So the answer is easy - run the offense best suited to him and us.

Oh and for the love of god stop rotating qbs.

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

I still feel like having a revolving door for an offensive line has been the bigger issue for Brock than a lack of talent.

That hasn't helped, that Carolina game just seemed to take his confidence. Those edge rushers caught everyone by surprise.

 

[Boz]

Can he play better? Sure. But he isnt the problem which was the post topic.

He plays plenty well enough when we run the offense we're suited to run. When we don't, he struggles.

So the answer is easy - run the offense best suited to him and us.

Oh and for the love of god stop rotating qbs.

I strongly disagree! He is part of the problem. Of course the offense sucks, ol sucks, not much talent at rb, underperforming Wr and play calling are playing a huge role too, But to act like BVG is a good qb is not looking at the whole picture. They all play a role in the overall offensive scheme.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

I strongly disagree! He is part of the problem. Of course the offense sucks, ol sucks, not much talent at rb, underperforming Wr and play calling are playing a huge role too, But to act like BVG is a good qb is not looking at the whole picture. They all play a role in the overall offensive scheme.

Where did I say he was a good qb?

 

[TuckyFan]

BVG hasn't been as good as advertised but I tend to agree with @bigblueinsanity that we haven't helped him at all. The OL and inexperience has had him sped up more than you'd like to see. The rotation of QBs and play calling has not played to his strengths and built up a rhythm/confidence. It seems to me that being sped up is exactly what's reduced him to a one-read QB, which just isn't functional in the SEC. We rarely roll him out, which malpractice for a QB that throws so well on the run behind a line not performing as well as you like. Where are the quick hit, easy passes? If you notice, he plays up and down some--great throw then throws into double coverage. And, it seems our offense lacks a certain ability to set up plays. So, yeah, I think his play has been lacking, as @Boz points out but his OC/QB coach has done him no favors at all.

 

[WyleECoyote]

Fo

That hasn't helped, that Carolina game just seemed to take his confidence. Those edge rushers caught everyone by surprise.

Footsteps Falco.

 

[gamecockcat]

I think it's a bit of everything. OL is not good. Play calling does not seem to play to our strengths, such as they are. BV does lock onto Key way too often and, at times, misses another receiver who is open (Maclin has been a big zero as they never even target him). Lack of rhythm in the offensive scheme - too many plays that just seem like throwing crap against the wall to see what will stick rather than having a well thought out plan. RBs, beside 3-carries-a-game Wilcox, are not game breakers. Why we run Wilcox one play and then immediately take him out is inexplicable, as is the asinine rotation of QBs. We don't seem to make any adjustments as the game wears on and the defense adjusts to our offense. Hence, the abysmal production in the second half. It's just a nightmare combination of pretty much everything bad you can name.

 

[Boz]

Where did I say he was a good qb?

You’re right. Unfortunately theres nothing positive in regards to the offense.

 

[Boz]

I think it's a bit of everything. OL is not good. Play calling does not seem to play to our strengths, such as they are. BV does lock onto Key way too often and, at times, misses another receiver who is open (Maclin has been a big zero as they never even target him). Lack of rhythm in the offensive scheme - too many plays that just seem like throwing crap against the wall to see what will stick rather than having a well thought out plan. RBs, beside 3-carries-a-game Wilcox, are not game breakers. Why we run Wilcox one play and then immediately take him out is inexplicable, as is the asinine rotation of QBs. We don't seem to make any adjustments as the game wears on and the defense adjusts to our offense. Hence, the abysmal production in the second half. It's just a nightmare combination of pretty much everything bad you can name.

I understand a bit why Wilcox plays so little; have you watched him pass block? He is plain terrible and doesn’t even try to I have seen pee wee’s block better. He should still get more carries.

 

[truebluewildcat]

Folks, the kid who was recruited and developed by Kirby smart; in line to get that gig had Beck left then recruited by a guy who’s making Baker Mayfield look like and MVP…isn’t the issue.

We have 12 years of passing offense data or lack there of to know who the issue is.

 

[WyleECoyote]

BV does lock onto Key way too often and, at times, misses another receiver who is open (Maclin has been a big zero as they never even target him).

Hard to not lock in on 1 WR when you don't have time to sit in the pocket and read the field, our line is putrid so he has to drop look at his pre-snap read and if that's not open run for his life.

 

[gamecockcat]

I understand a bit why Wilcox plays so little; have you watched him pass block? He is plain terrible and doesn’t even try to I have seen pee wee’s block better. He should still get more carries.

Agree. There are times, however, when Wilcox has run for good yardage, leaving us in a 2nd and short, let's say. That's not an obvious passing down - why take him out then? Also, could he not chip a defender then flare out in the flat as a safety valve? Just seems like he's a kid who potentially could make a big play and he touches the ball < 5 times a game. For an offense that is challenged, to say the least, that seems counter productive. If he is a potential big play guy, wouldn't play action to him basically serve as a 'block' as the defense would have to react to a fake to him? I mean, I'm guessing Barry Sanders, Bo Jackson, Herschel Walker, Mark Ingram, Najee Harris, the RB from Boise, et al, weren't expected to be road graders, right?