Paschal and the 3-4...

[WildCard]

Just read this story on home page. It gives me reason to ask something I have wondered about for a few years.

Cats will again base out of a 3-4 and apparently move Paschal up to the DL, presumably to what they call DE. They identify their 3 DLs as DT, NT and DE. I've always been a bit confused by that position nomenclature - I just don't think of a down lineman in a 3 man line as a "DE". I have always thought of a 3 down front as really a 3 DT front meaning all 3 DLs align no wider than a 4 technique and all "need" typical DT size.

So what techniques do the 3 DLs play against 10 personnel sets? Against 11 personnel sets? I'm talking just basic, middle of the field, 1st and 10 plays.

Thanks

Peace

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

Just read this story on home page. It gives me reason to ask something I have wondered about for a few years.

Cats will again base out of a 3-4 and apparently move Paschal up to the DL, presumably to what they call DE. They identify their 3 DLs as DT, NT and DE. I've always been a bit confused by that position nomenclature - I just don't think of a down lineman in a 3 man line as a "DE". I have always thought of a 3 down front as really a 3 DT front meaning all 3 DLs align no wider than a 4 technique and all "need" typical DT size.

So what techniques do the 3 DLs play against 10 personnel sets? Against 11 personnel sets? I'm talking just basic, middle of the field, 1st and 10 plays.

Thanks

Peace

It's the same scheme UGA plays and he is about the same size as 1 of our DE and a little bigger than the other 2 that play. He will likely be playing a 7 technique and the DT will be playing a 5 technique. His responsiblitly will be a little wider and have more responsiblity setting the edge than a DT will. Normally he is smaller than the DT and NT, may be a little quicker but that depends on the talent level of the other 2

Did Grantham not run a 3-4 at Louisville, its the same basic scheme he runs or ran at UGA.

 

[PRPcoach]

Kudos to Stoops and staff to make this change. If the kid was having to "diet" to stay in the 260 range - let him eat and lift HARD to get into the 280 range. If he can keep(or even improve) his explosion that he showed as a true frosh - he can be a game changer for us at the DE spot.
I'm still amazed that we allowed Micah Johnson to stay at LB - sometime guys just grow out of positions.

 

[KintuckyWildCayuts]

Kudos to Stoops and staff to make this change. If the kid was having to "diet" to stay in the 260 range - let him eat and lift HARD to get into the 280 range. If he can keep(or even improve) his explosion that he showed as a true frosh - he can be a game changer for us at the DE spot.
I'm still amazed that we allowed Micah Johnson to stay at LB - sometime guys just grow out of positions.

Stoops doesn't want him gaining that weight. Said you don't see many guys at the position playing every snap at 280 lbs.

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

Stoops doesn't want him gaining that weight. Said you don't see many guys at the position playing every snap at 280 lbs.

That's a little odd, Bama's UGA and most other teams running the 3-4 have a guy in the 270-280 range playing that DE position, if he is playing every snap that's entirely different issue.

 

[gobigblue812]

Stoops doesn't want him gaining that weight. Said you don't see many guys at the position playing every snap at 280 lbs.

As a LB.

 

[PRPcoach]

^^^
exactly - he was having to really keep his weight down as an OLB - so they moved him to DE.
Great move and with his pass rush ability he can be an every down player at our 3-4 D end spot

 

[23jumpboy]

Shame he has to play in the 3-4. Could be a premier DE in the 4-3. Now he will get buried trying to eat up blockers for Jones and company.

 

[3kidsandme]

Shame he has to play in the 3-4. Could be a premier DE in the 4-3. Now he will get buried trying to eat up blockers for Jones and company.

You can be disruptive as a 3 4 end. We just have not had anybody good enough since z to beat sec lineman on the interior.

 

[PRPcoach]

Shame he has to play in the 3-4. Could be a premier DE in the 4-3. Now he will get buried trying to eat up blockers for Jones and company.

that will be more the NT and DT's job - our DE lines up in a 5 technique - which puts them outside of the tackle - he will have the "freedom" to make plays if he can beat his man, he should be single blocked most often unless a back has to help or "chip"

 

[mrschwump]

He'll now challenge Allen as "The most held UK defensive player not called by shameless SEC stripes."

 

[ARC Dog]

It's the same scheme UGA plays and he is about the same size as 1 of our DE and a little bigger than the other 2 that play. He will likely be playing a 7 technique and the DT will be playing a 5 technique. His responsiblitly will be a little wider and have more responsiblity setting the edge than a DT will. Normally he is smaller than the DT and NT, may be a little quicker but that depends on the talent level of the other 2

Did Grantham not run a 3-4 at Louisville, its the same basic scheme he runs or ran at UGA.

The DE doesn’t play a 7 Tech - against one TE sets he lines up outside shoulder of the exposed OT in a 5 Tech with the OLB (at UGa called the Jack LB) in the 7 Tech on the opposite side on the TE. Vs two TE sets the Sam is in the game outside the DE, and so the DE isn’t in 7 Tech there either.

If you are 260-265 you are plenty big enough for the DE spot, and it really just signals more of a move to an even front 3-4 like UGa and Ala as opposed to looking more like Oklahoma.

 

[anon_7tbtqcx308nxh]

I've always been a bit confused by that position nomenclature - I just don't think of a down lineman in a 3 man line as a "DE". I have always thought of a 3 down front as really a 3 DT front meaning all 3 DLs align no wider than a 4 technique and all "need" typical DT size.

So what techniques do the 3 DLs play against 10 personnel sets? Against 11 personnel sets? I'm talking just basic, middle of the field, 1st and 10 plays.

Want to be more confused? The JACK LB is listed as "DE/OLB" on the depth charts, and the SAM is just listed as "LB" while the interior linebackers get the more standard "MLB" and "WLB" designators.

On middle of the field 1st and 10 plays (usually facing 11 or 12 Personnel), UK's 3 DLs typically align in 0 tech and 4 techs (now, when they go to an even front in their nickel package, they do a bunch of different things but I know that wasn't your question.).

I'm sure it doesn't need saying but like most defenses UK's alignment is often dictated by the opposing offense's personnel which itself is often dictated by the down and distance.

 

[TNTUK]

I’ll take Paschal, Bohanna and Middleton as our starting 3 DLs any day.

 

[ctroberts1024]

Shame he has to play in the 3-4. Could be a premier DE in the 4-3. Now he will get buried trying to eat up blockers for Jones and company.

I don’t think he will. I know we teach the reach and read, but I just don’t see Paschal playing that way at all. Even when he did slide down and play DE with Ware and Allen, he was constantly getting in the backfield and making plays.

 

[anon_7tbtqcx308nxh]

I don’t think he will. I know we teach the reach and read, but I just don’t see Paschal playing that way at all. Even when he did slide down and play DE with Ware and Allen, he was constantly getting in the backfield and making plays.

I'd bet money Paschal will only move to the interior on passing downs. I don't think they want to use him there on run downs.

 

[ctroberts1024]

I'd bet money Paschal will only move to the interior on passing downs. I don't think they want to use him there on run downs.

As far as DT, yes. But he played DE some in our 3-4 last year with Ware and Allen on the field and was still getting penetration.

 

[K_TIME]

If you watch the plays that adolph rolling over gave...our DE do not line up outside offensive tackles but instead as a 4 technique with Denzil Ware covering him up to the outside. So I envision Josh indeed having to try to do his work without lining up in a traditional 4-3 DE. And to be honest...Zadarius last year at UK was in this same spot and his productivity fell off.

But on the bright side and front 5 of Ware, Paschal, Bohanna, Middleton (if he gains weight) and Josh Allen is pretty formidable for UK to be honest.


https://kentucky.forums.rivals.com/threads/some-defensive-film-review.255442/#post-6552434

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Stoops doesn't want him gaining that weight. Said you don't see many guys at the position playing every snap at 280 lbs.

He is not playing OLB. That was last year.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

He'll now challenge Allen as "The most held UK defensive player not called by shameless SEC stripes."

On passing downs last year, teams were regularly double teaming JP, out of need. He is special.

 

[23jumpboy]

I can't stand the 3-4. We never get a consistent pass rush from the three down lineman and have to depend the outside linebackers to get to the quarterback. If Pascal is allowed to play outside he'll be fine. But not as a blocker eater. And we never stop the run. Why run it?

 

[anon_7tbtqcx308nxh]

As far as DT, yes. But he played DE some in our 3-4 last year with Ware and Allen on the field and was still getting penetration.

Yup. I'm with ya. Probably our most successful nickel sub-package.

 

[KintuckyWildCayuts]

Clearly I misunderstood the quote. Sorry fellas!

 

[vhcat70]

I can't stand the 3-4.

Would have never guessed that from earlier thread post.

 

[*Bleedingblue*]

Stoops doesn't want him gaining that weight. Said you don't see many guys at the position playing every snap at 280 lbs.

Thought he was talking about playing at that weight at his former position?

 

[Blue Decade]

Stoops doesn't want him gaining that weight. Said you don't see many guys at the position playing every snap at 280 lbs.

You are misinterpreting. You have to look at the entire comment, especially the fact that Paschal is moving to the defensive line.

 

[KintuckyWildCayuts]

Clearly I misunderstood the quote. Sorry fellas!

I literally said I misunderstood like two posts above. Again, apologize for misunderstanding Stoops on that one.

 

[WildCard]

Thanks to everyone that posted but special props to K_Time who dug up that earlier thread (in which I had posted) with some great video grabs courtesy of adolph rollingover. My post in that thread was more about DL techniques than "nomenclature" and I addressed only his first video play. (I had intended to post some other thoughts/questions but it never happened.)

Let's look again at the first 2 plays adolph posted, i.e., #1 "straight line run" and #2 "Power weak". This appears to be the same play from the same set with the only difference being Play #1 was run to field side and play #2 was run to the boundary side. While he did not go into it, adolph noted the Cats had different "personnel groups" defending the same play from the same set; the only difference being where the ball was spotted on the field.

The upshot here is that UK apparently uses specific field/boundary personnel "groups" presumably with various alignment options within that "group". Field/boundary personnel groups are not uncommon but I had never really noticed it before at UK.

Play #1 Offense is in a 11 package and strong to the field side (i.e., the defensive right). The Cat's DLs (defensive left to right) are #59 Looney (4 tech), #99 Middleton (0 tech) and #90 Carter (4i tech). The Cats were apparently nickeled up with #7 Edwards aligned at OLB on the field side.

Play #2 Offense in the same 11 package and strong to the boundary side (i.e., again the defensive right). The Cats DLs (defensive left to right) are #90 Carter (4/4i tech ?), #99 Middleton (0 tech) and #59 Looney (4i tech).

So going back to the question in my OP about the difference between the DE and the DT, based on these 2 clips, the answer appears to be the "DE" is the down lineman (#90 Carter) that plays to the wide side of the field. The Cats apparently never play the "DE" wider than a 4 tech - I just have trouble thinking of a 4/4i tech as a DE!

However, I had never really paid much attention to these field/boundary personnel groupings which goes beyond the DLs. Based on a closer look at Play #1 and Play #2, shows the Cats also made field/boundary flips with the LBs and at least some of the secondary.

Play #1 (into the field side, the defensive right) shows #51 Love as the right ILB, #7 Edwards at right OLB (Nickel ?) and #5 Randolph as the DB to the defensive right (the strong side of the offensive set and wide side of the field).

Play #2 (into the boundary side but still the defensive right) shows #32 Brown as the right ILB, #41 Allen at right OLB and #25 West as the DB to the defensive right (again the strong side of the offensive set but boundary side of the field).

Peace

 

[Blue Decade]

By August, Paschal will probably weigh 290. So there are 2 reasons for his position move. He more or less outgrew the edge linebacker position. And we have too many edge linebackers. This is why Paschal and King are moving. After those moves, we still have Ware, Wright, Allen, Watson, Bannerman, Whittaker available to play Jack and Sam. I think Wright is a big part of this. He is going to see the field a lot.

 

[seccats04]

By August, Paschal will probably weigh 290. So there are 2 reasons for his position move. He more or less outgrew the edge linebacker position. And we have to many edge linebackers. This is why Paschal and King are moving. After those moves, we still have Ware, Wright, Allen, Watson, Bannerman, Whittaker available to play Jack and Sam. I think Wright is a big part of this. He is going to see the field a lot.

Bannerman is listed as a TE this spring and will probably stay there because of our lack of healthy bodies. I have no idea what his potential is at TE but I was excited to see him at OLB.

 

[ctroberts1024]

Bannerman is listed as a TE this spring and will probably stay there because of our lack of healthy bodies. I have no idea what his potential is at TE but I was excited to see him at OLB.

Nope. He’s playing defense. Marrow and other coaches have said he’s back on defense.

 

[mrschwump]

Nope. He’s playing defense. Marrow and other coaches have said he’s back on defense.

Correct, it was a short experiment last fall that didn't work. Back with the LBs.

 

[UKani]

@WildCard
The answer to your question is, because UK is so multiple up front and do soo many different things, there are some assignments where the DE and DT are doing the same things, as you correctly described.... But there are some assignments that the DE has that is more indicative of a DE than a DT. Example, even though the DE may line up at a 4 technique or a 4i technique, if the Jack drops back into coverage and the offense passes the ball, you'll see the DE make a swoop step outside. That's because his assignment is to keep containment. That responsibility doesn't exist for the DT on the other side unless they run a stunt with the OLB and the DT. Also I'll point out that there are in fact some sets with the DE does line up outside shade of the tackle (5-technique) UK plays with alignment a lot. We run a 3-4 upfront but I've seen them in a base alignment, which is what you've described but I've also seen them in over and under alignments too. Its all apart of their package to be multiple upfront....

 

[23jumpboy]

 

[jauk11]

@WildCard
The answer to your question is, because UK is so multiple up front and do soo many different things, there are some assignments where the DE and DT are doing the same things, as you correctly described.... But there are some assignments that the DE has that is more indicative of a DE than a DT. Example, even though the DE may line up at a 4 technique or a 4i technique, if the Jack drops back into coverage and the offense passes the ball, you'll see the DE make a swoop step outside. That's because his assignment is to keep containment. That responsibility doesn't exist for the DT on the other side unless they run a stunt with the OLB and the DT. Also I'll point out that there are in fact some sets with the DE does line up outside shade of the tackle (5-technique) UK plays with alignment a lot. We run a 3-4 upfront but I've seen them in a base alignment, which is what you've described but I've also seen them in over and under alignments too. Its all apart of their package to be multiple upfront....

Where have you been hiding? We need more good posters.

 

[WildCard]

UKani, I basically agree with every word you said. I'm talking in generalities. Naturally, there are specific stunts to schemes and game plan adjustments every week. Perhaps the overarching question is: "Has UK gotten too complicated on defense the past 2 years"?

UK's best defense (based on total yards allowed) came in 2015 when they finished #56 nationally giving up 397 YPG. This represented steady improvement from 2013 (#96, 439 YPGA) and 2014 (#69, 408 YPGA). In 2016 the Cats were #88 (450 YPGA) and #93 last year (436 YPGA). It is too much trouble to dig up individual year data regarding offenses faced each year but the Sagarin SOS for 2015-2017 has been reasonably similar (#57, #46 and #61 respectively).

I found some video clips from the 2015 AU game. This clip was pretty much the full game of AU offense vs UK defense. It was all sideline shots so it was hard to see techniques, and nuances. But the Cats spent the majority of the game in a classic 5-2 alignment. There was some 3-4 JACK on LOS alignments and a few 4-2 looks with 2 stand up DEs. But again, the most common look was the basic 5-2 with both 3-4 OLBs playing upright on the LOS. Things have changed since then.

Peace

 

[Blue Decade]

Where have you been hiding? We need more good posters.

So, now, you are the judge of who is a "good poster"?

 

[Blue Decade]

Nope. He’s playing defense. Marrow and other coaches have said he’s back on defense.

Agree. Bannerman is not an impact defender in the 2018 time frame, but he has some talent. If he can add another 15 pounds of good weight, he has the frame and ability to become a useful member of the playing rotation on the edge in future seasons. This could become more important after Allen and Ware are gone.

 

[Cazwheel1072]

:46 into this video demonstrates why our defense will likely improve with Paschal at DE versus OLB (moves speed to the LOS). Paschal makes a quick inside move and was through the line before Landon could react.

His combination of speed, strength and explosion is elite and we have not had that at DE under Stoops (except to some extent with Zadarius, who was more of an OLB - as he is in the league).

i recall at least one prognosticator suggesting (at the time of his recruitment) that Paschal COULD be the best pure rush end in the country coming out of HS. Don’t know about that but I’m really excited to watch what he can do lining up with his hand in the dirt this year (an “SEC worthy” DE for our base D).

 

[Blue Decade]

View embedded media

:46 into this video demonstrates why our defense will likely improve with Paschal at DE versus OLB (moves speed to the LOS). Paschal makes a quick inside move and was through the line before Landon could react.

His combination of speed, strength and explosion is elite and we have not had that at DE under Stoops (except to some extent with Zadarius, who was more of an OLB - as he is in the league).

i recall at least one prognosticator suggesting (at the time of his recruitment) that Paschal COULD be the best pure rush end in the country coming out of HS. Don’t know about that but I’m really excited to watch what he can do lining up with his hand in the dirt this year (an “SEC worthy” DE for our base D).

Development of our defensive line roster has lagged other roster development since Stoops got here. Until now, signees on UK’s defensive line have mostly been blue collar types and projects. Smith, Elam, Middleton were more widely recruited, but most of Stoops’ defensive linemen have had limited offer sheets. Paschal is a high ceiling player with size, strength, athleticism. Paschal turned down offers from Alabama, Clemson, Ohio State, Penn State, Oklahoma. His move to defensive end represents a step up in defensive line roster development. This should translate to performance. The main missing piece on our defense has been a pass rush. Moving Paschal to defensive end should go a long way toward a solution. With Calvin Taylor showing promise as a depth piece at defensive end, and Davoan Hawkins in the pipeline, it’s possible now to move TJ Carter over to defensive tackle, which might be a more natural fit for his career in UK’s defense.