Letcher Co shooting

[bigblueinsanity]

Ragland says arraignment is 11am Wednesday. A judge from carter co presiding. No attorney yet entered an appearance for defense.

It isn't unusual there for an attorney to just show up and orally enter an appearance. However.....a case of this magnitude would usually warrant that written appearance to show your level of attention given to the case.

So im still holding my position as there is a decent chance he will try to plead guilty at arraignment. If so, the judge almost surely will not accept a guilty plea at that hearing. They might order a psych eval.

Bond will be extremely high.

 

[Dncmaxwell]

Say what now

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Not guilty plea. Wants a public defender. Set for pretrial. 10/1.

 

[Hank Camacho]

Not guilty plea. Wants a public defender. Set for pretrial. 10/1.

News says October 1 is a prelim instead of a pretrial. News also frequently gets legal facts wrong.

Do you know if it is a pretrial or a preliminary hearing on October 1?

 

[BankerCat12]

Not guilty plea. Wants a public defender. Set for pretrial. 10/1.

How would the defense argue not guilty?

 

[Hank Camacho]

How would the defense argue not guilty?

For murder, the state has to prove both the act (i.e. shooting someone) and the mental state (i.e., you intended to kill them when you shot them) to get a conviction.

Unless there is something truly unfathomable here, I would imagine the defense will concede the sheriff shot the judge and the defense will focus on the sheriff's mental state to see if they can lessen the ultimate penalty (such as avoiding the death penalty or seek a charge lower than murder like manslaughter).

 

[bigblueinsanity]

News says October 1 is a prelim instead of a pretrial. News also frequently gets legal facts wrong.

Do you know if it is a pretrial or a preliminary hearing on October 1?

You are correct. I regurgitated what i was told instead of thinking for myself. Definitely prelim. I figure that will be the motive and other evidence IF they dont waive.

Public defender request is interesting considering no way he qualifies. Apparently the judge wasnt sold either. Never saw anyone get denied in eky for financial reasons if they filled out the affidavit listing minimal assets.

How would the defense argue not guilty?

Jmo but they won't. They will argue mitigating circumstances such as edd and hopes he won't get the chair or die in prison.

Im curious when there will be a motion to change the venue. No way they can seat an impartial jury there. At least not one that didn't hear that (apparently false) rumor.

 

[JonathanW]

Exactly. Imagine all of the people he has put away for doing a hell of lot less crimes than that. No excuse or justification to take another humans life. Even IF he did it, that does not excuse murdering someone. This may be highly controversial, but the daughter is not exactly innocent IF true. 16 years old, while still a minor, she knows right from wrong, and IF she had a sexual relationship with the judge, I am fairly certain it was not her first time. Should the sheriff kill everyone she may have had a relationship with ? What if she did with a 18/19 year old ???

I don't have a daughter. But if my 16yo daughter had sex w/ a 18/19 yo, I would be disappointed, even pissed off. Might punch the punk. But shoot him? No. But that is light years away from a 50yo authoritarian figure, someone she might even see as her dad's boss. So, in that case, it would be hard to say I wouldn't act the same as this sheriff. And is certainly plausable to think temporary insanity could be the defense.

 

[bubba_bomb]

I don't have a daughter. But if my 16yo daughter had sex w/ a 18/19 yo, I would be disappointed, even pissed off. Might punch the punk. But shoot him? No. But that is light years away from a 50yo authoritarian figure, someone she might even see as her dad's boss. So, in that case, it would be hard to say I wouldn't act the same as this sheriff. And is certainly plausable to think temporary insanity could be the defense.

Agree. We honestly need more vigilante justice. Courts are corrupted by relationships, money, etc. There's no way to get true justice anymore unless you get it yourself. Up until the last 100 years or so victims of sexual violence crimes would have done what the Sheriff done and not even been tried.

 

[august-west]

Agree. We honestly need more vigilante justice. Courts are corrupted by relationships, money, etc. There's no way to get true justice anymore unless you get it yourself. Up until the last 100 years or so victims of sexual violence crimes would have done what the Sheriff done and not even been tried.

May I ask what your highest level of education is? I’m just curious.

Vigilante justice. Yeah, that’s what we need more of. A bunch of uneducated Billy Bad Asses running around shooting people because they feel like they have been wronged in some way. What a joke.

 

[august-west]

Not guilty plea. Wants a public defender. Set for pretrial. 10/1.

Why would he go PD route? No way I’m not hiring the best counsel I could get for a Murder charge. You know there has to be some big hit shot lawyer around there that would just love to take it if nothing else’s for all of the publicity. Hell you get it knocked down or at least a lighter sentence and you could double your fees.

 

[bubba_bomb]

May I ask what your highest level of education is? I’m just curious.

Vigilante justice. Yeah, that’s what we need more of. A bunch of uneducated Billy Bad Asses running around shooting people because they feel like they have been wronged in some way. What a joke.

A man that doesn't defend his family is not a man at all. Pretty obvious which side of the fence you fall on.

 

[AIChatGPT]

I bet your family has gone no contact.

 

[august-west]

A man that doesn't defend his family is not a man at all. Pretty obvious which side of the fence you fall on.

Well that pretty much answers my question. So answer me this. Because I’m not going to just go shoot and kill someone that I have deemed to have done something wrong I’m on the “wrong side of the fence”? I’ll defend my family but I will do as an ADULT not as some ignorant hillbilly with a gun. That sheriff that was supposedly “defending his family” will now probably never see them again, not at least face to face.

I sincerely hope that some dumbass never decides to “defend” his family because you have looked at his kid the wrong way and decides your fate, or someone you love, as judge/jury/executioner.

 

[bubba_bomb]

Well that pretty much answers my question. So answer me this. Because I’m not going to just go shoot and kill someone that I have deemed to have done something wrong I’m on the “wrong side of the fence”? I’ll defend my family but I will do as an ADULT not as some ignorant hillbilly with a gun. That sheriff that was supposedly “defending his family” will now probably never see them again, not at least face to face.

I sincerely hope that some dumbass never decides to “defend” his family because you have looked at his kid the wrong way and decides your fate, or someone you love, as judge/jury/executioner.

 

[AIChatGPT]

How old are your kids?

 

[august-west]

How old are your kids?

who are you replying to?

 

[AIChatGPT]

Bubba the sock puppet

 

[BigBlueDave]

Ya know you have the potential of a good thread when sock puppets are calling out other sock puppets.

Rock on.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Why would he go PD route? No way I’m not hiring the best counsel I could get for a Murder charge. You know there has to be some big hit shot lawyer around there that would just love to take it if nothing else’s for all of the publicity. Hell you get it knocked down or at least a lighter sentence and you could double your fees.

In ky you aren't allowed to add contingency elements to criminal fees.

Jmo the best he can do is edd and avoid death. Dirty little secret: public defenders office is excellent choice in a situation like this where you face death aren't contesting the act. Why? Because their death sentence attorneys by far and away handled more of these than anyone else. Probably more than everyone else put together.

If you have a case its a different story altogether. But in something like this, dpa is not a bad decision at all.

 

[BankerCat12]

For murder, the state has to prove both the act (i.e. shooting someone) and the mental state (i.e., you intended to kill them when you shot them) to get a conviction.

Unless there is something truly unfathomable here, I would imagine the defense will concede the sheriff shot the judge and the defense will focus on the sheriff's mental state to see if they can lessen the ultimate penalty (such as avoiding the death penalty or seek a charge lower than murder like manslaughter).

That was the only way I was thinking it could be but wondering if I was missing something. Will be interesting to see how this goes. How many other cases are there where the suspect hands the weapon to a police offer after committing a murder and turns themselves in?

 

[august-west]

In ky you aren't allowed to add contingency elements to criminal fees.

I’m not talking about the fees in this case. I’m talking about down the road but I could just be talking out of my ass. I really have no idea.

I just assumed there were lawyers out there that would take the case just for the publicity.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

I’m not talking about the fees in this case. I’m talking about down the road but I could just be talking out of my ass. I really have no idea.

I just assumed there were lawyers out there that would take the case just for the publicity.

Could be. That jurisdiction is unique. For decades, Letcher countians almost always hired local lawyers. Those lawyers all won office or just got out of that work because there is no more money in it down there.

Apparently he did express an intent to hire someone but said it was difficult since he isnt held nearby. Thats undoubtedly true but cost will be a huge factor. Even at a publicity discount, this is probably a 50-75k fee. He probably isnt that liquid, has no income, no other job skills, and i doubt he has much support after his actions.

So we'll see.

 

[bbncal02]

Agree. We honestly need more vigilante justice. Courts are corrupted by relationships, money, etc. There's no way to get true justice anymore unless you get it yourself. Up until the last 100 years or so victims of sexual violence crimes would have done what the Sheriff done and not even been tried.

Don't get me wrong, vigilante justice is attractive. However, the overuse of it will lead to "mob justice" and we have countless examples of history where that's a very bad thing (see Emmett Till for one example).

Our court system isn't perfect. However, it's still one of the best on Earth at presuming innocence, and protecting rights. Sure, we need tort reform badly. But if you need proof that our court system is better than most others, study Japan's justice system. If you get arrested there, you're going to jail more than likely. You are automatically assumed guilty (even if their laws say presumption of innocence matters- it's a joke for the most part) and unless you have high clout or lots of money you aren't getting off. There have been instances of their prosecutor's absolutely fabricating evidence to get a conviction....and they get away with it. Their discovery process is awful. Prosecutors don't have to disclose evidence that could point to the defendant's innocence, even if its absolute. Conviction success rate is 99.8% and that's amongst normal cases. It makes our court system look clean. Also, fun fact: while you get a lawyer in Japan, they are not allowed to be with you while you are questioned. You don't get visits while in custody except by your attorney and his advice is going to be for you to plead guilty and ask for leniency. Yeah, coerced confessions are also quite common.

All that to say, I will take our court system over just about anyone's, all day....everyday.

 

[bbncal02]

Ya know you have the potential of a good thread when sock puppets are calling out other sock puppets.

Rock on.

 

[mrschwump]

Any way there's a drug tie in here?

 

[C.W.1]

It's been pretty disappointing to read all these people just believe all these rumors and spreading them. Judge Mullins was a respected judge by attorneys. He was shot 6 times to death. I would be surprised if he didn't have a gun for self-defense in his office and yet from reports he was shot raising his arms up and sounds like he didn't see this coming. This was after giving the sheriff his phone.

Having watched the arraignment on youtube, some things struck me:

1. Sheriff Stines didn't seem familiar with the public defender who was standing with him. There was a second person standing with him on the video who may have alerted this public defender that the sheriff had no attorney. From watching it, it appeared the sheriff may have not even tried to contact an attorney.

2. Sheriff Stines said he currently earns $115K per year, owns his home and has a second home in TN that he said the "bank" owns so I guess he's still paying a mortgage on that. He doesn't qualify for a public defender and had not completed the indigency form to request a public defender. The public defender said he is likely to lose his job and will not be able to afford a private attorney as the cost of defense accrues. Still, that doesn't seem to be the standard and the Commonwealth pointed out that he isn't indigent. A defendant doesn't get a PD to avoid becoming indigent in the future. It's not an option for people who have money but want to preserve that money. The Commonwealth stated the PD appeared to be soliciting a client. Giving the PD the benefit of the doubt, it could have been, again, the PD was alerted by the third person on the Zoom video that the sheriff needed an attorney.

 

[Hank Camacho]

I think I saw that the third person on screen during the arraignment was the jailer for the county where he's being held.

I wonder if he's sophisticated enough to try to use resigning as sheriff as a bargaining chip.

 

[cat_chaser]

Wait - you can’t ask for a public defender if you have the means for a real one (sorry for the wording on that)?

That’s wild.

 

[pretzel__logic]

PDs jump in for unrepresented folks all the time for purposes of arraignment. In a death penalty case in KY, I would also feel confidence in the DPA's PDs who handle those cases. Even among attorneys who practice criminal full time, death penalty cases are relatively rare. The Commonwealth hasn't announced (to my knowledge) in this case if they'll go for it, but I wouldn't be shocked. And yes - public defenders are assigned based on means by design. They are a limited resource and if you have income/assets, you shouldn't be taking that resource from people who would otherwise be totally unable to navigate a criminal case. Pro se parties are just...no. Attorneys suck, until you need one.

Re: vigilantism. I understand the impulse, entirely. But it's just not a good solution. It doesn't undo the wrong that was done to the victim. It's a temporary, visceral satisfaction that does not help the person who was wronged, not really. Whoever carries out the vigilantism for the victim is signing up for isolation from that victim, who is presumably a loved one, for the better part of the rest of their lives. The victim (or their family, if it's a murder) then loses something else, and the pain is just compounded. The American justice system is far from perfect, and I understand why people get disillusioned with it; but it's also the best in the world. At some level, people have to understand a few truths: a) some people are evil; b) all humans are fallible; and c) you cannot turn back the clock to undo the actions of an evil person. Fallible humans will make mistakes, and yes, sometimes that means an evildoer "gets off easy." But that is legitimately not a common occurrence and if you can't see the meaning behind "better nine guilty men walk free than one innocent man be convicted," I don't know what to tell you.

None of us know what was happening with Mullins and Stines, and honestly....we might never know. Regardless, if the rumors about the judge and the sheriff's daughter are false, I can't imagine how much additional pain the families are going through now having those rumors perpetuated nationwide. It's not just the judge's reputation - those rumors will follow that girl the rest of her life. If she was truly a victim, how horrible for the world to know if you didn't want them to know. And if she wasn't, holy hell, how terrible to have that cloud of suspicion follow you forever.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

It's been pretty disappointing to read all these people just believe all these rumors and spreading them. Judge Mullins was a respected judge by attorneys. He was shot 6 times to death. I would be surprised if he didn't have a gun for self-defense in his office and yet from reports he was shot raising his arms up and sounds like he didn't see this coming. This was after giving the sheriff his phone.

Having watched the arraignment on youtube, some things struck me:

1. Sheriff Stines didn't seem familiar with the public defender who was standing with him. There was a second person standing with him on the video who may have alerted this public defender that the sheriff had no attorney. From watching it, it appeared the sheriff may have not even tried to contact an attorney.

2. Sheriff Stines said he currently earns $115K per year, owns his home and has a second home in TN that he said the "bank" owns so I guess he's still paying a mortgage on that. He doesn't qualify for a public defender and had not completed the indigency form to request a public defender. The public defender said he is likely to lose his job and will not be able to afford a private attorney as the cost of defense accrues. Still, that doesn't seem to be the standard and the Commonwealth pointed out that he isn't indigent. A defendant doesn't get a PD to avoid becoming indigent in the future. It's not an option for people who have money but want to preserve that money. The Commonwealth stated the PD appeared to be soliciting a client. Giving the PD the benefit of the doubt, it could have been, again, the PD was alerted by the third person on the Zoom video that the sheriff needed an attorney.

Everyone benefits from the pd being able to step in at arraignment. Steele knows that.

In a case as slam dunk as this, the last thing you want is to give the defendant any opportunity to collaterally attack a conviction. To that end, having the dpa handle only for purposes of arraignment protects the prosecution as much as anyone.

Also if you hear a private attorney state theyre representing the defendant for arraignment only, thats saying they weren't paid it. Its like "mr green" from the Lincoln lawyer.

 

[WayneDougan]

A man that doesn't defend his family is not a man at all. Pretty obvious which side of the fence you fall on.

If this happened to my daughter I'd kill him too, but I'd be smart enough to make it look like an accident.

 

[nerdcat]

After not being on the Paddock for months, I made the mistake of reading through this thread. What a bunch of easily swayed by rumor, ignorant, mouth breathers. No wonder Trump is the KY messiah.

 

[WayneDougan]

After not being on the Paddock for months, I made the mistake of reading through this thread. What a bunch of easily swayed by rumor, ignorant, mouth breathers. No wonder Trump is the KY messiah.

 

[bbncal02]

After not being on the Paddock for months, I made the mistake of reading through this thread. What a bunch of easily swayed by rumor, ignorant, mouth breathers. No wonder Trump is the KY messiah.

Man, the internet is more stupid than usual right now and will be well into February. I HATE this time of year every 4 years.

 

[mrschwump]

I ask this again for someone who may be familiar with Letcher Co: Are drugs a big issue in that area? Could the judge/sheriff had any involvement in that or other malfeasance? TIA.